[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[Tammit67]

So did we get hated out at the GP thanks to everyone packing grips and spell pierce, or will this deck be underpowered in the current (perceived) meta? Something like 2 pilots made it to day two IIRC. Perhaps we took some residual hate against aluren, hell even an active E. Plague can slow us down enough. Everyone's thoughts on the results of the GP with regards to the future of this archetype?

[DFY889]

Wizards' metagame breakdown is a little weird. For example with the decks "Bant", "Countertop", "Aggro Countertop", and "Enlightened Tutor", they specify that "Bant" includes New Horizons and Natural Order variants. So where would Countertop Goyf fit it? Is it Bant? It is certainly in bant colors and plays natural order. It is also definitely a countertop deck, but is also probably the most aggro countertop deck of the major archetypes, so who knows which deck type it is classified as. I wouldn't be surprised if Countertop Thopter was classified under "Countertop" decks rather than "Enlightened Tutor" decks.

[damnthedoodle]

So did we get hated out at the GP thanks to everyone packing grips and spell pierce, or will this deck be underpowered in the current (perceived) meta? Something like 2 pilots made it to day two IIRC. Perhaps we took some residual hate against aluren, hell even an active E. Plague can slow us down enough. Everyone's thoughts on the results of the GP with regards to the future of this archetype?

I don't think this deck will go away - It can be customized to beat just about anything and do well in any meta. I'm pretty sure more than 2 pilots made day 2 also, like the poster above me was explaining.

[GexxX]

I have tested the deck for some time and I feel like black is the weakest color in there. It really only helps in the Sideboard with EPlague and Perish.
The lack of Mass Removal also seems quite bad right now. (I think Merfolk and Goblins have increased in number)

Maybe Red is a substitute packing Ajani Vengeant and another way to deal with Problematic Threads until you find Swords or it just burns the Piledriver PLUS the Ultimate in it is also very good. The Next Auto-in is Firespout. I really love this card for having CC3 with Counterbalance and being almost a Wrath of god most times.

For the Sideboard ReB, Pyroblast & Lavamancers should make it.

What do you guys think about it? I haven't had time to test it, but maybe someone else has and can post some results.

Thanks in advance for contributing.

[pippo84]

I have tested the deck for some time and I feel like black is the weakest color in there. It really only helps in the Sideboard with EPlague and Perish.
The lack of Mass Removal also seems quite bad right now. (I think Merfolk and Goblins have increased in number)

Maybe Red is a substitute packing Ajani Vengeant and another way to deal with Problematic Threads until you find Swords or it just burns the Piledriver PLUS the Ultimate in it is also very good. The Next Auto-in is Firespout. I really love this card for having CC3 with Counterbalance and being almost a Wrath of god most times.

For the Sideboard ReB, Pyroblast & Lavamancers should make it.

What do you guys think about it? I haven't had time to test it, but maybe someone else has and can post some results.

Thanks in advance for contributing.

From my testings Firespout isn't good enought against New Horizons and ProBant, but it's great as usual against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. Perish instead is great against New Horizons, ProBant and Zoo. Engineered Plague is great against Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge.

Reb is always a nice card to have if you splash red, but wouldn't include him in this deck. Don't get me wrong, he's great, but I'm not sure he fits this deck..

Has anyone thought of Wrath of God? Too slow?

[obituary 95]

From my testings Firespout isn't good enought against New Horizons and ProBant, but it's great as usual against Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo. Perish instead is great against New Horizons, ProBant and Zoo. Engineered Plague is great against Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge.

Reb is always a nice card to have if you splash red, but wouldn't include him in this deck. Don't get me wrong, he's great, but I'm not sure he fits this deck..

Has anyone thought of Wrath of God? Too slow?

wog is to slow, i have tried it . plus if you play it then you can not play jace since it screws up your curve for counterbalence

[DFY889]

You've had good results with e plague against merfolk? It kills unlorded cursecatcher and silvergill, but nothing else. I guess it saves a little damage and gives you a turn on your clock, but seems like it wouldn't be enough. In my experience, goblins in one of the best matchups as they have very few outs to moat or even countertop without an aether vial provided you plow or otherwise deal with their guys. Zoo is closer, but still fairly favorable, and can depend on the amount of hate they have. Merfolk I find is one of our worst matchups between cursecatcher, daze, and maindeck spell piece (since Saito's list is becoming fairly standard); the classic aggro control package seems to get there. Maybe I just need to play the matchup more and tighten up gameplay, but it certainly not an easy ride. I'm considering moving up to two or three maindeck EEs to help the matchup.

I don't think Ajani Vengeant is the way to go. He's slow, expensive, and is not tutorable. Against aggro the situations where he is better than moat seem very few and far between, and against control Jace seems to be better in almost any situation since 5 brainstorms is gg just about as much as a one-sided Armageddon.

[pippo84]

You've had good results with e plague against merfolk? It kills unlorded cursecatcher and silvergill, but nothing else. I guess it saves a little damage and gives you a turn on your clock, but seems like it wouldn't be enough. In my experience, goblins in one of the best matchups as they have very few outs to moat or even countertop without an aether vial provided you plow or otherwise deal with their guys. Zoo is closer, but still fairly favorable, and can depend on the amount of hate they have. Merfolk I find is one of our worst matchups between cursecatcher, daze, and maindeck spell piece (since Saito's list is becoming fairly standard); the classic aggro control package seems to get there. Maybe I just need to play the matchup more and tighten up gameplay, but it certainly not an easy ride. I'm considering moving up to two or three maindeck EEs to help the matchup.

I don't think Ajani Vengeant is the way to go. He's slow, expensive, and is not tutorable. Against aggro the situations where he is better than moat seem very few and far between, and against control Jace seems to be better in almost any situation since 5 brainstorms is gg just about as much as a one-sided Armageddon.

In my testing Moat and Engineered Plague are enought to stop Merfolk. It's not an impossible MU,probably around 50/50 pre and post board.

Ajani Vengeant seems good, but also I don't think it's the direction to take. Playing more Jace 2.0 seems just better (I actually play 3).

I was also thinking of adding some EE. They are good against aggro and also against CB. Pre board if an opponent lands a CB we don't have many ways to get rid of it..

[Verystrait42]

So is there really a superior choice between Moat and Humility for the Mainboard slot? I've been running both lately, not going terribly, but not sure if it would be possible to cut it between one of the two.

[nodahero]

Personally I feel Moat is a stronger inclusion overall.

In reality it is a question of risk vs reward. Moat has the most reward but in turn also suffers from the most risk. A single pridemage or Predator can cause certain death. A humility prevents those scenarios but allows for you to get eaten alive by midgets.

[DFY889]

In my testing Moat and Engineered Plague are enought to stop Merfolk. It's not an impossible MU,probably around 50/50 pre and post board.

Ajani Vengeant seems good, but also I don't think it's the direction to take. Playing more Jace 2.0 seems just better (I actually play 3).

I was also thinking of adding some EE. They are good against aggro and also against CB. Pre board if an opponent lands a CB we don't have many ways to get rid of it..

Yeah Moat is very good against merfolk, but I don't think engineered plauge is since it kills very few of their guys and most of the time there will be a lord out.

[ivanpei]

I realised I've been testing too much preboard and not enough postboard. Krosan grip IMO is a serious serious problem. I have black/green splash gobbos, zoo with grips, and bant with grips post. Man was that very difficult. Preboard I've always felt that this deck was godlike, having the silver bullets for most situations and setting up wins that were immune to STP. However after more postboard testing, I've felt that this deck is a bit fragile and cold to grip. The situation usually unfolds like this: I nuke a couple of cards with counters/removal. He drops more threats, I tutor up a hoser/ either combo. He grips at the worst possible time, and I can't do a damn thing about it even though I've stocked up plenty of counters. I lose to the previously locked up dudes (due to moat) or to a flood of drops (due to gripped balance) and I can't recover. I think that we really need 4 mages in the board to name grip. STP/ removal are most likely coming out, so I believe that is a pretty important play. Thoughts?

[dorkogoyf]

Meddling Mage seems fine. Vendilion Clique seems like a good card to board in too...and strong in the control mirror. It fits the curve pretty well as you can pre-emptively get their Grip out of hand before you play whatever you don't want him to Grip.

Clique + Karakas is a pretty neat interaction, as you can recycle the Clique's effect.

[dtrooper]

I picked this deck up when it first appeared in a SCG event. Last time I played it, managed to top3 a Magic-League trial. Not a strong feat, but still something to take into consideration.

The list was the following:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36773

Since then, I picked up Ubgw Landstill but eventually made up my mind about what Control shell I wanted to play. CounterTop Thopter is much more reliable and, surprisingly enough, can threaten to actually end the game quite fast after locking it, something Ubgw has trouble with.

I drew some conclusions after extensive testing against the top Grand-Prix decks, as well as the other Aggro matchups - namely Zoo and Goblins - and there are a few topics I'd like to address.

MOAT VS HUMILITY
Moat is better against Goblins, Humility is better against Zoo and Merfolk. Coralhelm Commander is still a card and gets around Moat pretty well, since basically you play the 4cc card against Merfolk only when you're in a pinch and wasted your spot-removal, and the Merfolk player will protect it at all costs if you're playing against a competent opponent. Goblins has absolutely no way of dealing with Moat except with a Green splash or Anarchy, while Zoo has the troublesome Qasali Pridemage which gets "answered" pretty swiftly with Humility instead of Moat. However, it is important to remind yourself that sticking either one in the battlefield isn't game over for your opponent. That's why I chose to bring two Firespout to the maindeck. Suddenly the aggro matchup goes from close to heavily in your favor, and considering you're -probably- playing Humility over Moat, it takes away the possibility of your opponent overruning you with 1/1s. Humility also has the offchance of nullifying Emrakul and Iona, something Moat lacks, and that's sometimes relevant.
One last thing I'd like to address in this discussion is the UG Madness deck gaining popularity. The tutorable Wonder makes Moat a joke against the deck, which is more of a reason to play Humility.
I don't see myself playing both enchantments as I already have two Jaces filling the 4-drop slot, and none of the two pitch to Force of Will.

POST-SIDEBOARD HATE
If you check the above list, you will see I chose to play with a playset of Tarmogoyf in the Sideboard. They were probably the best cards in my 75, but I would never maindeck them. There's too many creature hate maindecked these days and it is taken out when your opponent is faced against a deck with zero creatures, instead opting for artifact removal, which is stellar against CounterTop Thopter. An unanswered Tarmogoyf ends games very quickly, while all your opponent can do is kill your irrelevant artifacts, which grows Tarmogoyf even more. Plus, people are packing tons of Counterbalance hate Sideboard these days, and I've noticed your opponents tend to dillute their post-sideboard 60 with more hate instead of more pressure - making Tarmogoyf even more powerful. It also does something this deck lacks against combo - a fast clock. Sticking to this mindset, I have opted to, in addition to Tarmogoyfs, make room for two Meddling Mage and one Vendilion Clique in the sideboard (and still playing Ethersworn Canonist). Ever since, I haven't lost a single sideboarded match against combo.

MERFOLK
Merfolk is admittedly the matchup you will least like to face, but it isn't that bad. Make sure you drop a Pithing Needle on AEther Vial which makes them have to play a fair game with an actual fair curve - that's crucial. I have added a second Pithing Needle to the Sideboard over the Ancient Grudge (I was playing Ancient Grudge for the double purpose of killing AEther Vials and hurting Stax, but AEther vial is much more present) so I don't have to waste a Tutor on it every time. The matchup has proven to be close to fifty percent in testing which isn't a bad result at all, but makes me fear if Merfolk starts gaining popularity again - and it will; it won the Grand Prix, after all. A number of Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard, maybe two, or one and a Llawan, Cephalid Empress will put you over fifty percent, and I'm studying the best way to accomodate them.

If anyone is interested in the list I'm working on, please show the interest. I will post it on request.

Feel free to disagree with my assessments, but at least justify why you do so we can have a decent discussion. :)

[pippo84]

I picked this deck up when it first appeared in a SCG event. Last time I played it, managed to top3 a Magic-League trial. Not a strong feat, but still something to take into consideration.

The list was the following:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36773

Since then, I picked up Ubgw Landstill but eventually made up my mind about what Control shell I wanted to play. CounterTop Thopter is much more reliable and, surprisingly enough, can threaten to actually end the game quite fast after locking it, something Ubgw has trouble with.

I drew some conclusions after extensive testing against the top Grand-Prix decks, as well as the other Aggro matchups - namely Zoo and Goblins - and there are a few topics I'd like to address.

MOAT VS HUMILITY
Moat is better against Goblins, Humility is better against Zoo and Merfolk. Coralhelm Commander is still a card and gets around Moat pretty well, since basically you play the 4cc card against Merfolk only when you're in a pinch and wasted your spot-removal, and the Merfolk player will protect it at all costs if you're playing against a competent opponent. Goblins has absolutely no way of dealing with Moat except with a Green splash or Anarchy, while Zoo has the troublesome Qasali Pridemage which gets "answered" pretty swiftly with Humility instead of Moat. However, it is important to remind yourself that sticking either one in the battlefield isn't game over for your opponent. That's why I chose to bring two Firespout to the maindeck. Suddenly the aggro matchup goes from close to heavily in your favor, and considering you're -probably- playing Humility over Moat, it takes away the possibility of your opponent overruning you with 1/1s. Humility also has the offchance of nullifying Emrakul and Iona, something Moat lacks, and that's sometimes relevant.
One last thing I'd like to address in this discussion is the UG Madness deck gaining popularity. The tutorable Wonder makes Moat a joke against the deck, which is more of a reason to play Humility.
I don't see myself playing both enchantments as I already have two Jaces filling the 4-drop slot, and none of the two pitch to Force of Will.

POST-SIDEBOARD HATE
If you check the above list, you will see I chose to play with a playset of Tarmogoyf in the Sideboard. They were probably the best cards in my 75, but I would never maindeck them. There's too many creature hate maindecked these days and it is taken out when your opponent is faced against a deck with zero creatures, instead opting for artifact removal, which is stellar against CounterTop Thopter. An unanswered Tarmogoyf ends games very quickly, while all your opponent can do is kill your irrelevant artifacts, which grows Tarmogoyf even more. Plus, people are packing tons of Counterbalance hate Sideboard these days, and I've noticed your opponents tend to dillute their post-sideboard 60 with more hate instead of more pressure - making Tarmogoyf even more powerful. It also does something this deck lacks against combo - a fast clock. Sticking to this mindset, I have opted to, in addition to Tarmogoyfs, make room for two Meddling Mage and one Vendilion Clique in the sideboard (and still playing Ethersworn Canonist). Ever since, I haven't lost a single sideboarded match against combo.

MERFOLK
Merfolk is admittedly the matchup you will least like to face, but it isn't that bad. Make sure you drop a Pithing Needle on AEther Vial which makes them have to play a fair game with an actual fair curve - that's crucial. I have added a second Pithing Needle to the Sideboard over the Ancient Grudge (I was playing Ancient Grudge for the double purpose of killing AEther Vials and hurting Stax, but AEther vial is much more present) so I don't have to waste a Tutor on it every time. The matchup has proven to be close to fifty percent in testing which isn't a bad result at all, but makes me fear if Merfolk starts gaining popularity again - and it will; it won the Grand Prix, after all. A number of Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard, maybe two, or one and a Llawan, Cephalid Empress will put you over fifty percent, and I'm studying the best way to accomodate them.

If anyone is interested in the list I'm working on, please show the interest. I will post it on request.

Feel free to disagree with my assessments, but at least justify why you do so we can have a decent discussion. :)

I agree with your post.
I am playing moat and I always found it fantastic! Against Merfolk I land it before finishing my removals though..
Time ago I was also thinking of playing Tarmogoyf in the SB, but I prefer playing a 3 Color list to support basics and Back to Basics better. Thus I added Baneslayer Angel. It rocks! I never hav problems to reach 5 mana to cast it and with the lifelink he is a beating! If I would chose another creature it would be Vendilion Clique because of it's ability and because it can fly.

In my experience pre-board games are almost always at least slightly in our favour so I suggest testing post side a lot. I tried Meddling Mage when I first approached this deck. I always found him good, but thought that there could be better cards to SB. And then I thought of the "transformational" (not quite) board with Baneslayer Angels I'm playing.

Last point: I don't think that our worst MU is Merfolk, but Jace control (aka UBG Landeed).
With all the counters they have, Pernicious Deed and Jace I really see it a nightmare MU.. And the deck is getting more and more popular in my meta.

[Tammit67]

You could try Karmic Justice if you hate deed. That deck is very good against us though. I try to needle deed, get Back to Basics in play, but they still have such a counter suite it's hard.

[Tammit67]

Bump: Just came in 6th in a 45 person event, at TOGIT in Somerville, NJ. Got a beta Berzerk for my trouble... I'll post some small report tomorrow.

Edit: Report
Rd 1: Merfolk
G1: I make a great misplay running out Thopter foundry instead of sword of the meek turn two, and I get punished for it thanks to daze, and lose soon thereafter with sword sitting in my hand. Spell pierce is annoying.
G2: Lords and wasteland cut me off from enough mana to land moat before being overrun.

Rd 2: Hypergenesis
G1: He is a fatty short of going off turn one, and that is all I need. I untap with top turn one with E tutor in hand, waiting for that cascade or show n tell to fetch humility. No need to find counterbalance, as his show n tell nets him a clique(!) and I land humility. Moat comes down for the lock, and he gives it a couple of turns before scooping.
G2: E tutor and brainstorm, plus force/Jace and lands. Keep. I survive until turn two, and the fun starts. I e tutor for humility in response to hypergenesis, brainstorm it into my hand, putting back jace, picking up top and Karmic justice. Humility+top+justice come down while spirit guide+sphinx of the steel wind+ingot chewer land for him. Top finds me the combo in short order.

Rd 3: Merfolk
G1: A quick thoptersword stabilizes me at 6 through a lot of spell pierce/ force that shut down hopes of moat. He attacks into it once before we move on.
G2: Merfolk on the play is bad news. Spell pierce my top, standstill. The lords come crashing down soon after, and his force seals it.
G3: Hey look, my Sideboarded cards! Unfortunately my deck wont cough up a second white source and I am forced to e tutor for pithing needle-> mutavault to buy a turn. I rip the plains, and 3xkitchen finks starts shooting my life outside of alpha strike range, and swing for the win.

Rd 4: Joe Stempo with New Horizons
G1: I swords a creature, and ORing Jace, landing humility. He forces my thopter despite my attempts to bait a counter, and I soon die to 5 resolved 1/1’s. Nice hand.
G2: Moat, Jace Counterbalance, top, karmic Justice, Ult with jace, protecting from stifle, removing Clique to stop karakas interactions. We don’t have time for a game 3

Rd 5: Ryan McKinney with Lands
G1: Long and drawn out. He attempts to beat me down with factories since turn 2, ends up dropping me to 7 as I casually set up CB and thopter sword. He is forced to T west for tabernacle, and loams it back for EE. EE takes the tokens, ruins puts it back on top to hit my combo and CB, and my top finally reveals maindeck crypt, hitting loam and EE. I swords more offending Factories and we play draw go until I reassemble thopters and EE @3 to destroy ensnaring bridge.
G2: My hate stays in hand at 3 mana as I never have enough to cast anything thanks to port and ghostquarter preventing my draws from being land. He cannot kill me in time however, and is a turn or two short.

Rd 6: Jim Higgenbottom with TES
Jim could draw into Top 8 had he not been paired down, sitting at 12 points to my 10. Sorry Jim.
G1: I mull to 5 like a pro, brainstorming into CBtop turn 2/3 with force back up. I don’t have a 1 on top for chant, and place top there instead. He goes all in on infernal sensing weakness, but I have force or enlightened tutor to counter and he moves for his sideboard.
G2: My initial 7 are good, and set up CB top again,as he cantrips into K grip on my upkeep. I e tutor for back to basics to stunt his mana and find additional CB’s. LED’s come down to tempt my reveal while I’m tapped out, but I refuse to bite. I find jace, fateseal is a cruel Mistress.

Top 8: Evan with Merfolk
Man I don’t like playing against merfolk.
G1: Spell pierce sucks, I fetch the trop to bait a waste, which he does, but I cannot profit from it.
G2: Moat locks it out.
G3: Moat lands again with me at 10 while he has LoA and coralhelm. I get knocked to 3 thanks to attack and fetching and my top reveals more tundra’s and top. I play thopter foundry to scare his attack, but he swings for the win.

Ended up in 6th with a Beta berserk. A Fun day of magic.

[dtrooper]

@Tammit67, can you post your list? Congratulations on the result. :)

[Tammit67]

Current List:


1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell


4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt (saw a lot of land.dec and moved the 2nd EE to the board)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Declaration of Naught
1 Back to Basics
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile
1 Wheel of Sun and moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion ring
1 Vedalken Shackles (soon to become Porphyry Nodes)
1 Pithing needle
1 EE
1 Karmic Justice

Some of the choices are weird. Not sold on Karmic Justice yet since it comes down slowly but I haven't had anyone attempt to blow up my stuff with it out. Nodes seems fine for anti aggro, much better than shackles. The main is solid, I really like Moat and Humility main. The ability to go both is huge against decks that frequently can put you in awkward spots. Gotta really be careful the opponent isn't running Planeswalkers themselves though, since you are effectively cut off from Thopping to victory.

[pippo84]

Current List:


1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Plains

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell


4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt (saw a lot of land.dec and moved the 2nd EE to the board)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Declaration of Naught
1 Back to Basics
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile
1 Wheel of Sun and moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion ring
1 Vedalken Shackles (soon to become Porphyry Nodes)
1 Pithing needle
1 EE
1 Karmic Justice

Some of the choices are weird. Not sold on Karmic Justice yet since it comes down slowly but I haven't had anyone attempt to blow up my stuff with it out. Nodes seems fine for anti aggro, much better than shackles. The main is solid, I really like Moat and Humility main. The ability to go both is huge against decks that frequently can put you in awkward spots. Gotta really be careful the opponent isn't running Planeswalkers themselves though, since you are effectively cut off from Thopping to victory.

Congratz on the solid finish!

Seems that you have been "rolled over" by Merfolk. Have you thought of something to improve the MU?

I noticed you aren't playing mass removal (eg. Firespout etc), but you are running Paths instead. How where the Paths all day? Having Firespout would have been better?