This deck is not interested in running a purely defensive creature, much less an on-color Kor Haven. To make this deck, creatures need to pass a test: they must provide card advantage, a good clock, or both.Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod
The issue with Wisp is that it doesn't really generate card advantage, since you can't punish the opponent for over-committing to get past it (in fact, you don't want the opponent to do that because it makes your Bloods and Gatekeepers worse). Unlike Persecutor, the Wisp can't provide any clock (unless you use a charged Jitte, which seems like a poor use of the card), so it basically fails both tests.
Something more along the lines of what he's looking for would be Bloodghast. It has an underwhelming body, but it pings for two every time it connects, trades with most of the utility creatures in the format, and will force the opponent to hold back blockers at low life. People generally underestimate it because it doesn't hit very hard, but once they get down to 10, forgetting about it can be costly (think Vengivine, but smaller). It works well with Therapy and Innocent Blood. The only way to get rid of it is Path/Plow, but who wants to Path a 2/1? Who wants to bring in otherwise dead graveyard hate for a couple of 2/1s?
The issue is what to cut for it. I don't see anything in the OP list I'd want to take out for Vvine Jr.
@Sporenfrosch
just try 2 or better 3 dystopia - you will love them too. Here in our german meta dystopia is amazing it eats goyfs, elspeths, annoying enchantments with an acceptable loss of life.
But at my last tournament i realized another problem: the goblin matchup. Ok in both games i was screwed on two lands thanks to his ports, but hey after 2 ringleaders there was absolutly no chance of winning one game. I know on the paper the matchup seems to be an 50%-matchup, but on sunday the reality one again showed how fast goblins can be even if you can kill his first turn lackys:(
@Seraph2k
I pretty much had the exact same experience some weeks ago on a legacy tournament :)
Had absolutely no chance vs gobbos, though i did not have spinning darkness in my sideboard at that point...
I wouldn't really consider Nighthawk a solid beater in Legacy. 2 Power isn't exactly that amazing, which is of course, the biggest beef with the Nighthawk. Again, I don't disagree that he's a good blocker - that's what I've been saying is that he's pretty much a 1BB removal spell that gains you 2 life and requires your opponent to attack.
One thing about Nighthawk though - I'd be really curious to see how good Sword of Vengeance is with him. If only it gave +2/+1 instead of just +2/+0.
Other things I've been looking at: Possibly a green splash for Goyf (like in a Eva shell). Phylactery Lich has a lot of potential, but really requires a lot of reworking for it to be playable (adding Top would have synergy with it + Bob).
Also, do you guys notice mana flooding at all with running so many basics and no fetchlands?
Without Lifelink, you'd be right. Nighthawk demands an answer, or you'll win with life advantage.
Looking for equipment for a Nighthawk? Sword of Light and Shadow is the answer. That's +7 life when you swing, and -4 for the opponent.
Lich stinks in a format with Swords & Path, and the Eva thread is for splashing green.
I've never really noticed mana flooding with 17 swamps & 4 Wastelands -- quite the opposite.
So does anyone have any thoughts on opponents playing Leyline of Sanctity? Seems like the only answer to it is the incredibly slow Neveranals disk, and not answering it leaves all of your hand hate and Gatekeepers pretty dead. Got destroyed by this earlier.
Also in a meta where Vengevine is very present (both the madness deck and random survivals) I am beginning to think that this deck is just not right. Hymns are good for the opponent while even Perish doesn't really do enough. Faeries are the only answer but they can usually survival 4 into the graveyard before you see a single faerie. Extra graveyard hate helps but the fact that they are playing other quick beaters means that it isn't enough and you need the perfect mix in your hand to not lose.
Any comments on these two problems?
Dystopia is all I can think of for Leyline of Sanctity and for Survival of the Fittest (though Pithing Needle could work on that one). I've been looking at Damnation for the SB seriously, just to get out of bad situations. (Also synergizes with Persecutor)
One thing that the deck doesn't really have pre-board is INSTANTS. Just been thinking about the very low curve and sometimes nothing to do...
Leyline is problematic and if it starts getting added to a lot of boards then The Gate may not be a good meta choice. However, Dystopia should be able to take care of even multiple Leylines with no problem. If the opponent has counters to back up their Leyline, you're screwed either way.
In 50 games tested against U/G Madness this weekend I was very happy with my results post board. Even versions with some form of draw/manipulation in Brainstorm or Looter were not able to get there very often. Obviously, getting in an early Duress is outstanding against them. Dystopia is a champ here too, and while Mongrel can dodge it (as well as Deathmark) they only have the ability to generate a limited number of Vengevines activations. Their deck does not have any engine to generate card advantage and in general they do the exact opposite, much to your benefit. At the same time I was often able to answer their board advantage and take the win.
@Muja
Damnation is not a bad idea actually. Would be nice for the Goblins match-up obviously, but I have no idea what I would cut from the board.
Damnation would go in the place of Spinning Darkness (if that is ineffective vs. your swarm meta), or Soul Spike (if you're seeing more swarm than Combo -- I'm probably going to do this) -- I didn't see your specific sideboard in the last few pages, so post that if you want more specific advice. This is what I'm testing right now:
3 Dystopia
2 Damnation
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Pithing Needle
Damnation is also good for Merfolk, among others; just keep your Daze mana open...
Good luck getting to Damnation mana against 4Cursecatcher4Daze3SpellPierce.deck.
Also, Plague is much better against Goblins. Goblins is quite adept at recovering from sweepers thanks to SGC, Matron, and Ringleader, while non-green versions have a much harder time getting around Plagues.
"Plague, Cats" is about the saddest sound you can make against a deck with Lurghoyfs.
And if Merfolk draws "4Cursecatcher4Daze3SpellPierce" you're in much better shape than seeing a bunch of lords...and you won't need Damnation for a few Cursecatchers.
Plague *IS* better against Goblins, but I think it's too narrow.
I think what he was trying to say that Merfolk drawing any of those cards makes your Damnation becomes more expensive than 2BB. I don't know about you, but in my experience I have a hard time curving out to 4 mana as it is, even while running 22 lands. Bottom line: you're not going to resolve a Damnation against Merfolk.And if Merfolk draws "4Cursecatcher4Daze3SpellPierce" you're in much better shape than seeing a bunch of lords...and you won't need Damnation for a few Cursecatchers.
Disk is too slow, and too expensive. Splash white, run Vindicate. Kills everything.
Dystopia is your best answer against Leyline of Sanctity. Enchantress will board Leyline against you, and obviously Dystopia takes care of the rest of the deck as well.any comments on these two problems?
Extirpate takes care of Vengevine, and combined with Dystopia, discard, and possibly Pithing Needle in the sb, you should be able to stand a chance against Vengevival decks.
Regarding Vengevines: Yeah, especially in a mono black deck like this with access to all the best graveyard hate, I don't see the UG Madness deck being that big of a deal if you bring in enough graveyard hate. Leyline and Extirpate, especially, just wreck Vengevine. That deck just dies if it can't get down a Survival (which we should be able to stop early with all the hand disruption). Without Vengevines, the deck is really just a very bad Survival deck (c'mon they aren't even running Tarmogoyfs or Squee!).
Regarding Damnation: I'm not a huge fan of Damnation against Merfolk either. This deck doesn't run any acceleration so if they even have a Cursecatcher out, you're talking 5 lands to even cast it? Pretty rough. My experience with the Merfolk matchup in general is to kill their Lords which actually our deck seems to have problems with because it uses so much non-targeted removal! I would just say go with Engineered Plague as the best option?
Man yesterrday i played this deck and it was so beast against burn. I only lost once for 5 matches that me and my opponent played. Abyssal persecutor does mean things to burn. Same with Vampire Nighthawk + Umezawa's jitte. In one game, i was at 2 life points. I had an umezawa's jitte out and vampire nighthawk out. I equipped the umezawa's jitte and started melting face. He was at 20 Life points. He was all burnt out by then and couldn't do anything. I then started regaining life from lifelink and came back. In the end, he just quit and i got back to 18 life. This deck does mean things. Abyssal Persecutor is literally a clock against your opponent if they can't do anythign about it.
And you know what? I haven't even been playing magic for more than 20 games in my entire magic career. THIS IS HOW BEAST THIS DECK IS.
I've noticed there this deck is garnering a lot of attention to newer members of The Source, and I am really happy about that. The deck is relatively cheap to build, so it has that appeal to players to who are newer and just breaking in to the format. I'm really happy about the intelligent debate people are generating about slots in the main build and sideboard. For a deck that lacks most of the format's most prevalent cards, it seems to be doing very well under the radar and has been gaining a large amount of notoriety.
Keep up the good work, everyone! Remember: It's cool and all to hype the deck up and have faith in it (as it has performed very well), but our work here is far from done in trying to optimize our card selection. Let's remain focused on what doesn't work in addition to what does.
I have been tinkering a lot with the sideboard as of recent with the rise of Vengevine. Extirpate seems to be the cheapest, most effective way of eliminating that problem all together. Remember: Leyline of the Void only shuts down opponents' graveyards, but it cannot remove those creatures from their hands. They also have haste, which is another problem. Even if we did decide to play Smother or the like, it still would not hit Vengevine. It's for this reason I believe Extirpate to be a crippling shot to Survival decks abusing that card's triggered ability.
Those decks also tend to lack the Squee engine, which is also beneficial to decks like ours. Pithing Needle works great in the sideboard as a deterrent to cards like Jace and Survival and forces an opponent to either match forces or meet removal when it comes to attrition. Mass removal in the form of Pernicious Deed is also an annoyance, but Needle also helps here too.
I am also beginning to wonder if a splash would actually hurt or help this deck's consistency. It already really is very consistent for a mono-black deck, so giving it the benefit of the doubt can be either a good or bad thing.
I have two thoughts on a splash. First, the deck is currently not vulnerable to wasteland. This is one of it's finest strengths and something that would be inevitably lost with a splash (fetching for basics would further hamstring Gatekeeper).
Second, it would be prudent to start by coming to an agreement on the deck's worst match-ups and then deciding if a splash would address those match-up. At this point I'm not convinced that it would. I'm not saying that it's wrong to try white for Vindicate or enchantment hate (or what have you) but black is a versatile color and I would need a very convincing argument to add a splash.
Glad to see more people taking interest in the deck recently.
Regarding to splash: one of the reasons for me is that we can not do anything against Counterbalance. Discard doesn't help against topdecked CB.
No, but landing an Abyssal Persecutor when they have no answer doesn't help them either, does it?
Point is, it's mono-black and you can't deal with it game one. Oh well. The deck can work around Counterbalance; you need to exert pressure on their hand enough and drop threats to counteract its effectiveness. With a Top out, you're looking at a mana-intensive scenario where they need to dig for answers instead of stacking to counter.
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