you have to ask yourself:
"When i play versus some deck that strongly relies on its graveyard, for example Dredge or Loam, would you not mulligan aggressively just to have an answer before he can do anything at all?"
I really like the Leyline. Drop it from your opening hand versus Loam, NewHorizons, T hr esh or anything similar and your opponent will find himself in massive trouble. Sure he will have somewhat of an answer but until then, you dominate him. Maybe you will draw another Leyline later, but even if, you could maybe hardcast it, having prolonged the game with your first Leyline.
You can also try FaeryMacabre if you like, its a good alternative though i personally had a better play with Leyline :)
I don't know how you guys manage to win with your lists.
I've been running 22 lands right from the beginning (3 Waste, 19 Swamp) and have experienced a flood every now and then. Then I decided to go with ONE fewer Swamp and got mana screwed in half the games of the tournament (2/5/1 drop at German Nationals, 204 players total).
I mean, even though I got the worst possible matchups, this shouldn't have happened:
1x CBTop + Jace
1x Jace-still (RWU)
1x Goblins (...)
1x BantSurvival (saw none of 4 Faeries to stop Iona)
1x NO-Elves
1x UR Dreadstill (draw)
and 2 rogue decks I won against...
Hello from Russia
Sorry for my bad english
Today i'm played non-DCI legacy tournament and made top-2
My build:
[x4] Abyssal Persecutor
[x4] Vampire Nighthawk
[x4] Gatekeeper of Malakir
[x3] Dark Confidant
[x2] Faerie Macabre
[x4] Innocent Blood
[x4] Cabal Therapy
[x4] Duress
[x3] Hymn to Tourach
[x3] Diabolic Edict
[x2] Bitterblossom
[x2] Umezawa's Jitte
[x19] Swamp
[x2] Bojuka Bog
1 round - 0:2 vs BGW Fish
2 round - 2:1 vs Zoo
3 round - 2:1 vs Show and Tell combo with Emrakul, Iona, Terrastodont and Sutured Ghoul
Final - split
Playing - The Gate; Spring Tide
Building - LEDless Ichorid; Merfolks
A friend and I both played the Gate today at the SCG 5K Denver. Conclusion: it's too slow.
@Esskay
What were ur matchups?
What exactly did you conclude to be too slow?
Give us more information ;)
That's quite helpful, considering slow got me third place out of seventy people (and third out of thirty-three the tournament before that).Originally Posted by EssKay
Would you mind elaborating on this vague and (ironically) inconclusive statement? Because from what I gather, one of several things are happening here:
a. You're playing the deck incorrectly.
b. Your build is not optimal.
c. You ran into bad match-up after bad match-up.
d. Your sideboard is not configured properly.
e. You did not sideboard correctly for certain match-ups.
f. You left glaring omissions from your list where something more helpful could have been used.
g. You made tons of play mistakes.
h. You lost tight Game Three's.
i. You ended up playing against opponents who opened the nuts and got you when it counted most.
j. You mulliganed incorrectly and it ended up costing you.
And the list could go on and on. I'm trying to decrypt your logic when you say it is "too slow", because the deck runs (at least) fourteen one-cost spells. The deck intentionally plays like a control deck (which I trust you knew before even playing it), so I'm not sure what you mean you refer to it as slow. It's perfectly tailored for a large and diverse metagame, which is why it has done so well in large events.
I am (personally) still against playing Leyline; that completely alters the entire mulligan strategy of the deck and forces you to decide what is worth taking: A mulligan to find a Leyline down from a strong hand of seven, a mediocre six with a Leyline, or a one-lander in a five-card hand. It's just not worth it when you factor in the lack of an efficient draw engine. That is why the deck uses two for one's to generate card advantage, so that it doesn't want to damage its optimal starts.
The only "four-drop" you want to play is Abyssal Persecutor. And I am super curious if you main-decked Deathmark (and whether or not it would have helped). Reading through your last several posts, you seem to have an issue with speed when it comes to running a mono-black deck. I'm wondering if perhaps this variation isn't suited to your needs, because your "final" conclusion was that it was simply too slow when in fact, that is how the deck is purposely designed to run.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 08-23-2010 at 11:33 AM.
I actually played it at the 5k also. There wasn't a single match where I was blown out and I was usually very close to stabilizing. Quick details, I'll elaborate later if people have questions:
Loss to Goblins: He's at 1 in game 3 and rips a Ringleader into Piledriver and Warchief. Fuck my life.
Loss to Allies w/Vial and Standstill: I have lethal on the table and he rips an ally to give his team pro black and swing in past my tokens.
Win v Merfolk
Win v Boros Burn
Loss to U/G Madness: I mulligan poorly and my decision to go with Leyline instead of Faerie or Extripate costs me game 3, I'll elaborate later.
Loss to Aluren: I don't keep a disruption hand for game 3, so I'm a jackass and he goes off turn 3.
You might notice I didn't meet a Goyf all day. I could blame a bit of this on dropping to the 0-2 but Zoo and Goyf were both out in much smaller amounts than I expected.
Massive pros to my buddy Kyle for sticking to his guns and taking 2nd with Burn, and the rest of my car cashing.
I currently consider swapping Leylines for Extirpate. Extirpate gets not only rid of what lies in the graveyard, but of all copies as well. Plus you cant react on it, since it has Split/Second. I need to test this ;)
Still@Esskay:
Whats too slow? Why did you loose and versus what decks? Whats your list?
I N F O P L S :D
I was at the 5k as well, and I think I ran into you, Lifeless. I was the guy with the green splash you came to watch thrash Merfolk in Round 5. It was a pleasure to meet you, and I hope to see you down at Black Gold for our Vintage nights!
I ended up going 3-3 and dropping, but I was doing better than that. I was 3-2 going in to round 6, and mis-read my table number. In the time it took me to ask a judge for assistance, one minute went by and they gave me a game loss, leaving me with one non-sideboard game agaisnt Belcher. Yeah. I dropped, because I knew I'd be getting very unsportsmanlike very quickly with the contemptous way the judges treated me. I don't think I'll be playing in another StarCity event any time soon.
Anyway, I found The Gate to be very solid. Here's what I played:
[deck]
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Duress
2 Hymn to Torach
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathmark
4 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Forest
9 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Faeire Macabre
[/deck]
I had no trouble with the green splash all day. Running two Bayous and a singleton Forest let me grab a green source when I needed it, but I never had a problem with Wasteland. The green was only relevant in one game against Stiflenaught, who was running Dreadnought, but I was glad I had it there to grip his Counterbalance before it became a problem.
The Thorns were critical against Spring Tide, sealing the game when they dropped. I imagine they would also have been critical against belcher if I had been able to play with them. The Merfolk matchup was very favorable, boarding out the Deathmarks for Spinning Darkness and another Sword.
I had game against every deck I saw, but like Lifeless, I saw no Tarmogoyfs at all!
Match 1 (Spring Tide) Win
Game 1 - I watch helplessly, stuck on one land, as he goes off turn 4.
Game 2 - Post board, I curve out with Duress, Thorn, Bitterblossom. That does the trick.
Game 3 - Duress, Thorn, Nighthawk. He tutors up some bounce for my thorn and tries to go off turn 5, but he's got a less than stellar hand and fizzles.
Match 2 (Counterbalance / Stifle) Loss
Game 1 - Early discard strips him of defenses, and eventually I overwhelm his man-lands with a persecutor.
Game 2 - My biggest whiff of the day. He's down to 2 cards in hand, Dreadnought in play. Could've hymned before casting innocent blood - no reason in the world not to - but I dont, and get blown out by Force of Will. Stupid, stupid.
Game 3 - I draw crap and his second Dreadnought sticks around long enough to finish me.
Match 3 (Elf Combo) Loss
Game 1 - 12 points of pointy-eared power on t2 spells doom.
Game 2 - I keep a lid on for a few turns, and take a risk on t3. I have a Deed in hand, and figure that my only shot is to wait for him to go nuts with aggro and dump his hand, blow him out, and then recover. Unfortunetly, he gets lucky and his glimpse goes from "see how much power I can dump" into "c-c-c-c-c-combo!" when he draws two Nettle Sentinels. I never get a chance to land the Deed, but if he had not gone off, it would have been absolutely brutal.
Match 4 (Pox) Win
My notes are vague on this match, but essentially I duress away his pox and smallpox when possible, and I run more threats than him, so I get there. Post-game, we get into an interesting discussion on the merits of running Persecutor in pox. I think it's bad; yea, it's great you have lots of sacrifice effects, but a Pox deck letting people build to 4 mana is losing already.
Match 5 (Merfolk) Win
Again, bad notes, but basically cheap discard and creature kill mean he's dumping his hand into his grave. Then my critters come to mop up.
Match 6 (StarCity Judge / Belcher) Loss
Game 1 - Thanks for asking for help. Unfortunetly, we're here to mete out punishment, not to help you, so here's your seat and a game loss.
Game 2 - My Thorns sit in the sideboard. I keep a hand with therapy and hope to get lucky by nailing a bunch of chrome moxen, but no good; he's got petal and tinder wall instead. He Empties for 12 gobbos on t1, and I scoop after (unsuprisingly) not drawing Balance.
To those who say this deck is slow: you're doing it wrong. The Gate does not win quickly. However, it starts undermining the opponent's position very quickly, and eventually just grows threats after the opponent's explosive start has been nuetered. So, for example, against Merfolk, the games I won were starting hands with some discard and some removal. Nail the countermagic with duress. Let em' vial out creatures; you just kill them all. Wasteland is great because, against mutavault, its extra creature removal. Eventually, around mid-game, you start going: "Threat, go. Threat, go. Threat, go," and the now-depleted merfolk player simply cannot deal.
That's not to say that an opponent's aggro starts can be so explosive you can't do anything about it. Against Elf Combo, for example, I watched a friend of mine dump 12 power onto the table on turn 2. Even if I had boarded for Plague, I couldn't have lived long enough to cast the two of them it would take to neutralize him. But, against Merfolk and Goblins, I think this deck is a very solid choice.
Last edited by MaximumC; 08-23-2010 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Added game reports
Where is Abyssal Persecutor?
Only two Hymn to Tourach? That's one of the absolute best cards in the deck. You need at least three for it to be effective. Two Cabal Therapy is just horrible; you need that card to be able to knock out multiple copies of cards in their hand, flashback to hit Persecutor, and re-utilize by offing Faerie tokens.
Why in God's name would you run Pernicious Deed when you run only twelve creatures, Bitterblossom, and Equipment? You're just asking for your board position (which should be dictated by a plethora of systematic removal) to be neutralized by your own card. Pernicious Deed is redundant is this deck (just as Disk once was) and from the looks of your list you got too cute with what you were trying to do. I don't even see Dystopia in your sideboard, which is arguably the best card in the deck.
See this is what I'm noticing (and this is startling to a certain degree): People are just taking the general concept of this deck and diluting it with additional colors for splashes that are unnecessary and only detract from the original concept of the deck because it is cheap to build which subsequently makes cards easier to substitute out. Remember folks: Just because you can substitute something out of the deck because other options are more readily accessible doesn't necessarily mean you should run them for the sake of running them. Try out the lists and see what works and what doesn't. Try to evaluate and disseminate ideas that could be beneficial to the evolution of this deck and archetype as a whole. But speaking to everyone who really and truly likes this deck: Remember the basics and remember the fundamentals.
This deck is Magic in its most simplistic form.
I guarantee you if you only had slightly modified (at least) the stock list from the opening thread you would have done much better barring play-errors, match-ups, and how you mulliganed.
*On a similarly related topic, check out this link from Star City's St. Louis event not too long ago: Here.
Notice the trend of players running Aggro in the format. The Gate has positive match-ups against most of these decks to begin with. Control has probably risen up from the depths slowly, but it still has a severe issue dealing with decks like Zoo and the sort. While this information is just under two months old (and in a different time and place, essentially), the standard base of decks to confront in a large metagame have not changed all that much. This deck should (and does) have great match-ups against most decks echoing throughout the Legacy today. I dare say much has changed, and that is why this deck has consistently been effective.
To put it explicitly: Altering two or three cards in this deck can change the entire course of how it plays; it's that tight.
First card in the decklist...?
Hymn is good, I like Hymn, but I never want to draw multiples. I'm certainly not married to the idea of only 2 of them, but it served me pretty well. The problem is that by turn 2 or 3, when I can be casting Hymn, I usually had something on the board to deal with instead. So Hymn gets put off while I kill a Dreadnought, and then it's less effective later. I agree that Therapy should be a 3 of at least, I just didn't have the third, but I disagree on how easy it is to flashback. By the time I had creatures sticking to the table, I had already won the control war and the game was basically over.
I ran Deed for the same reason that people run Wrath of God; I need a reset button. Obviously you won't run it out if you're ahead on the board, but in that case, life is good anyway. Take my Elf match. If he had not drawn the nuts, and he explained afterwards he was not expecting to do so, he would have dumped his hand and had 6 - 10 1cc creatures on the board. Deed wins the game. Plague does not, btw, because of the lords he's packing. I won't argue with Dystopia, that's solid, but it would have been nigh-useless in the Zoo-free 5k we played in.
The other thing is, Deed sweeps are not necessarily bad for me even if I have something on the table. On several occasions I therapied away my creature before hitting them with Innocent Blood, and Deed would do great there too. I also run the singleton Phyrexian Tower for the possibility of Towering a creature, sweeping, and then having mana for a followup play. Maybe that is too cute, though.
No, I diluted the deck with an additional color because I was not willing to punt my matchup against Empty the Warrens, Elves, and Counterbalance. Without the green splash, a resolved counterblance is a ticking time bomb. Yes, you can try to nail it with duress beforehand, but I am uncomfortable knowing I have no answer at all once it resolves. Maybe that's a mistake - you've certainly tested the deck more than me - but it worked for me. I ripped the KG a few turns after top landed and before he got top online, which kept me in the game.
I think what we're talking about here is like what TPS went through in Vintage; adding more diversified disruption which, while it distracts from the deck's focus, protects the deck against otherwise diffult matchups. Maybe I would have done better mono black, but I can tell you this: there was NEVER a point in the tourny that I wished Deed was Therapy instead, or where I regretted running some fetchlands. Not one.
Hymn to Tourach is the definitive example of card advantage in Legacy. There is no reason to not run more than two copies of a card that is just as crippling mid-game as it is early.Hymn is good, I like Hymn, but I never want to draw multiples. I'm certainly not married to the idea of only 2 of them, but it served me pretty well. The problem is that by turn 2 or 3, when I can be casting Hymn, I usually had something on the board to deal with instead. So Hymn gets put off while I kill a Dreadnought, and then it's less effective later. I agree that Therapy should be a 3 of at least, I just didn't have the third, but I disagree on how easy it is to flashback. By the time I had creatures sticking to the table, I had already won the control war and the game was basically over.
You don't "need" a reset button; you run multiple removal effects to the point where cards like Wrath of God are laughable. Deed is reactive, not proactive, which is why you lost some games I'm sure. Dropping that card after (or before even) with relevant threats is pointless in a deck predicated on using systematic removal to allow your hand to become that much more effective as the game goes on. Sitting on Deed as an insurance policy is a terrible idea, especially when creatures should be the least of your worries.I ran Deed for the same reason that people run Wrath of God; I need a reset button. Obviously you won't run it out if you're ahead on the board, but in that case, life is good anyway. Take my Elf match. If he had not drawn the nuts, and he explained afterwards he was not expecting to do so, he would have dumped his hand and had 6 - 10 1cc creatures on the board. Deed wins the game. Plague does not, btw, because of the lords he's packing. I won't argue with Dystopia, that's solid, but it would have been nigh-useless in the Zoo-free 5k we played in.
Yet you decided to run less discard to help supplement the combo match. I don't understand. What good is a turn three Pernicious Deed when you are going to (more than likely) run into Daze or some other cheap counter to make it stick? And even then, you'd have to wait a turn - before it gets Stifled. And you can't really use the argument that you would use discard to knock out cards in their hand to protect the Deed because in that scenario all you would need to do is discard their relevant cards you needed the Deed for to begin with.No, I diluted the deck with an additional color because I was not willing to punt my matchup against Empty the Warrens, Elves, and Counterbalance. Without the green splash, a resolved counterblance is a ticking time bomb. Yes, you can try to nail it with duress beforehand, but I am uncomfortable knowing I have no answer at all once it resolves. Maybe that's a mistake - you've certainly tested the deck more than me - but it worked for me. I ripped the KG a few turns after top landed and before he got top online, which kept me in the game.
Board sweepers in this deck are not necessary for the simple fact they are redundant and do everything your removal and discard can already do to slow an opponent down enough where they find themselves having to regress from their original strategy and press on trying to stop your threats.
You're comparing a multilateral discard spell to a board sweeper. There is little comparison.I think what we're talking about here is like what TPS went through in Vintage; adding more diversified disruption which, while it distracts from the deck's focus, protects the deck against otherwise diffult matchups. Maybe I would have done better mono black, but I can tell you this: there was NEVER a point in the tourny that I wished Deed was Therapy instead, or where I regretted running some fetchlands. Not one.
You're also opening the deck up to color-screw against "tempo advantage" decks predicated on stopping your fetches and non-basics. The whole point of this deck is to render those cards useless from the very beginning. Again, an opponent who opens with a Wasteland will be sorry to learn you run a lot of basics. And with the limited number of green spells you splashed for anyways, opening yourself up to that kind of hate just isn't worth the time and effort.
Flexibility has a price, and for a deck like this it is masked as inconsistency.
What? No I didnt, the original post is quoted in your own response, dude. You just missed it, just like I missed what seat to go to for Match 5. :)
Very possibly. I have not played enough matches to know for sure. I just know that I did not NOTICE any problem with the deck in my matches.
There was one anecdotal example of a tempo player who shot himself in the foot because of my fetchlands, though. He was sitting on a standstill, and when I baited the stifle by using a fetchland... I'll be damned if he didn't stifle it. I know that isn't something you can rely on, but the lols from that play were pretty impressive.
At any rate, all I'm trying to do is help players who are newer to this archetype understand what worked so well for me when I came up with my own list that has been extraordinarily effective - and consistent - for a mono-black deck (there are a lot of newer members to The Source frequenting this thread, so I'm trying to exercise patience). I think some folks need to spend a lot more time practicing with it and learning the intricacies involved and practice away the "itchy trigger finger" associated with most mono-black decks that dump their hands turn one or two.
At least for me - I think the biggest thing to understand is that this deck seems to be more midgame/control than an aggro suicide deck. I believe most people see a mono black deck that runs a bunch of hand disruption + Wasteland and automatically assume that it's a Suicide variant.
A couple more quick notes:
Needle was fantastic and blew people out. My Merfolk opponent kept a mediocre hand with vials and got destroyed while my Madness opponent was able to counter the 2nd Needle that would have cost him the game (interesting to note that he only had Grip in because I was using Leyline game 2).
I will be testing Vendetta in the Deathmark slot, not so much because I dislike Deathmark, more so that want the extra answers to Lackey and even Muta/Factory.
Let me try to elaborate in a similarly snide tone so that maybe you'll actually listen instead of copy/pasting the same tired talking points again.
First, for full disclosure, here is my list:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Bitterblossom
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Dark Depths
1 Volrath's Stronghold
9 Swamp
4 Fetch
4 Scrubland
SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ethersworn Canonist
Clearly, this is not pure Gate. It's Deadguy using the 'disrupt early, control the board, overwhelm' strategy of the Gate. I'm sure you'll just argue that my list is totally wrong, gets hurt by Wasteland/Stifle, and so on, but really I was pretty happy with the changes. I never got screwed by Wasteland or stifle, blew up vials with Vindicate all day long, stole several matches off an early Marit Lage, and beat Dredge by saccing a Hexmage targeting a swamp to nix all his bridges. I'm not sold on Persecutor because at 18 (+Stronghold) lands, I just didn't find myself getting to 4 mana that consistently anyway.
I think Lifeless said it best:. That's really the whole problem with the deck/strategy. You spend the early part of the game just trying to find an answer to everything your opponent does while chipping away at your own life with Bitterblossom and Bob, trying to find a Jitte or Nighthawk before your own deck kills you. Remember that game you lost against Zoo at the Jupiter tournament? Did you not lose to your own Bob trying to dig for a way to get out of burn range? The deck simply takes too long to stabilize, and when it does it still lets the opponent do whatever they want. Stax tends to stabilize at a low life total too, but when they say stabilize, they mean completely locking the game up, not just having "better board position". Same goes for Counterbalance decks.There wasn't a single match where I was blown out and I was usually very close to stabilizing
The deck "intentionally plays like a control deck", except that control decks respond to what the opponent does, whereas the Gate just sits with its thumb up its ass, hoping to fix everything after they pass turn. StP was the MVP of the day, because you know what tribal decks do? They vial in things like Lackeys and lords and Cursecatchers at the end of your turn, when 8 of your super efficient removal spells are completely fucking worthless. Then they play another guy or two or three, so all your non-targeted removal turns to shit as well. I'm pretty sure the only reason I won my goblins matchups was luck. Both opponents dropped Ringleaders and revealed no goblins, one guy drew lands for at least five consecutive turns, and the other round I won game one at 1 life by recurring Gatekeeper with Stronghod, then stole game 2with Depths, which is good because I was about to be completely overrun.
Yes, we have 12 removal spells....how many creatures does Goblins run? Zoo? What good are they against EtW? Dredge? Zoo actually runs more removal, except that it's burn so it's also reach, whereas your removal doubles as a bunch of goddamned coasters against decks that a. don't play green or b. can play more than one creature per turn.
But I digress. Clearly I'm just building a shit version of the deck and playing it wrong. Every card choice you've made is perfect and that's why the Gate is showing up in the top 16 of so many major tournaments. It's way better than the Rock and Deadguy and every multi-colored deck because it is totally immune to Wasteland and Stifle, two cards that have practically driven the entire Legacy world to mono-colored decks. Plus, who needs more than 4 creatures that don't die to Firespout anyway? Iona on Black isn't a problem because you can just play Extirpate or Macabre, neither of which you need to mulligan to, because it's not like Reanimator goes off quickly or runs any Duress effects. Also, Daze is no big deal because the curve stops at 4, and with 18 lands you've got a whopping 34% chance of hitting four lands by turn four!
Honestly, this deck is good in a lot of categories, but not really great at anything. It isn't as fast or agressive as Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, Dredge, Combo, etc, nor can it protect itself or establish board position as well as Lands, Countertop, Blue anything, or Stax. Explain to me what the Gate does better than any of Legacy's leading archetypes?
I'm not sold on Dark Depths but I will say that Hexmage is a nice proactive solution to Jace. Did having no board against control come up yesterday?
@Esskay
My only problem is that you say the deck is too slow, doesn't stabilize quickly enough, etc., and making judgments on a deck you didn't play. Furthermore, you run discard to rip those aether vials out of their hand (in the case of tribal decks) not to mention tribal decks get wrecked by Jitte, which should be run as a 3-of MD (this is coming from a long-time Goblins player)
Double post.
Last edited by bakofried; 08-25-2010 at 02:50 AM.
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