[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't think Iona is needed im either MD or SB.
Her hole card just seems to scream "win more!".
MD she is just stealing a slot off a more useful card. I mean, yeah, it's really a blast to DR Iona into play against decks that rely mostly on one certain color, but honestly I have yet to come to a situation in which Iona wins me a game a 15/15 GGT along with his multiple 2/2 friends wouldn't have won it as well.
That's the thing with most DR targets...I don't think you need any besides GGT preboard when you win G1 most of the time anyways.

Here's what I'd suggest, I copied the list out of the mtg-forum.de primer, which is one of the best primers I've seen yet. Didn't copy it because I'm lazy, I tested a bunch of games with it and I have to say I belive it's the most optimized version of the deck yet. MD, that is. SB, as always, is meta-dependant in some slots.

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Dread Return
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

My SB

1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Firestorm
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor

I think I'm about to cut a few CoVs though, in favour for more Rays or Nature's Claim
Tested both Leylines, didn't work out for me.
And as for Ancient Grudge: NEVER leave the house without a whole playset of them, MVP 99% of the time.
Test it, it's a blast to play!

[Nidd]

15 lands but only 3 Ichorid? Can't be optimal. I've never seen an Ichorid and complained about it, 4 is the right number.

I play TES and it plays only 13 lands and I rarely have problems with opening hands with 0 lands in them, no need to water down the engine behind the Dredge deck. 14 lands are perfectly fine.

[HokusSchmokus]

I found 15 lands to be better. Maybe 14 lands, 4 Ichorids, but I like beeing actually able to cast my spells.
The 4th Ichorid was competing with the 4th Tireless Tribe MD. I just found Tribe way better. 3 Ichorids are enough to hurt your opponent quite bad, and sometimes you're in the Situation not to be able to pitch something for the 4th.
just what occured in my testing games. Also, my built is tailored to provide maximum consistency.

But I will test 14 lands, 4 Ichorids again. Although, I recommend to try out the 15 lands 3 Ichorids built, I bet you will hardly ever miss the 4th.

Edit: 15 lands enable you to play some of the sideboard cards more consitently, too. Also, multiple Ichorids in my opening hands make me wanna cry.

[Nidd]

I found 15 lands to be better. Maybe 14 lands, 4 Ichorids, but I like beeing actually able to cast my spells.
The 4th Ichorid was competing with the 4th Tireless Tribe MD. I just found Tribe way better. 3 Ichorids are enough to hurt your opponent quite bad, and sometimes you're in the Situation not to be able to pitch something for the 4th.
just what occured in my testing games. Also, my built is tailored to provide maximum consistency.

But I will test 14 lands, 4 Ichorids again. Although, I recommend to try out the 15 lands 3 Ichorids built, I bet you will hardly ever miss the 4th.

Edit: 15 lands enable you to play some of the sideboard cards more consitently, too. Also, multiple Ichorids in my opening hands make me wanna cry.

The general consens here was that 14 lands and 4 Ichorids is the most consistent version.

If you have nothing else to feed the Ichorids, feed them to each other. This deck has to be relentless in it's resource management, as the speed is the biggest advantage it has to offer.

What cards are you talking about, Ray and Grudge? If you find yourself having problems to cast them, play Claim.

[HokusSchmokus]

The general consens here was that 14 lands and 4 Ichorids is the most consistent version.

If you have nothing else to feed the Ichorids, feed them to each other. This deck has to be relentless in it's resource management, as the speed is the biggest advantage it has to offer.

What cards are you talking about, Ray and Grudge? If you find yourself having problems to cast them, play Claim.

Again, it's just what occured in my testing. And I did lots of it.
If you all find 14 lands to be sufficient, no problem with that.

Any thoughts on the list apart from the Ichorid/lands thingy?

[Ozymandias]

I would definitely run Woodfall Primus or Terastodon maindeck, so that you don't just lose every single game your opponent ever drops Glacial Chasm, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge , or any number of other cards that just wreck your day otherwise. It can also let you time walk combo by killing lands.

[Nidd]

Again, it's just what occured in my testing. And I did lots of it.
If you all find 14 lands to be sufficient, no problem with that.

Any thoughts on the list apart from the Ichorid/lands thingy?

No, because that's the only thing one can argue about ;)
The rest of the list is really solid.

@Ozymandias: MB targets are cute, but mostly a meta call.
Also, I'd play Terastodon over Primus MB, if I'd have to play one.

[HokusSchmokus]

I would definitely run Woodfall Primus or Terastodon maindeck, so that you don't just lose every single game your opponent ever drops Glacial Chasm, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge , or any number of other cards that just wreck your day otherwise. It can also let you time walk combo by killing lands.

@Ozymandias: MB targets are cute, but mostly a meta call.
Also, I'd play Terastodon over Primus MB, if I'd have to play one.

This. You just say-hello-in-japanese most decks g1. to cut speed / disrupt / discard to be prepared for niche decks is just not worth it imo.Plus if you live to see enough turns to DR Terastodon vs combo ( due to therapies or whatever) you might as well just explode in their faces with x/x ggt +inf. zombies.

[sa17dk]

So I'm playing the LED version right now (switching back and forth from LED and LED-less) and I gotta say that if I were to return to the LED-less build, I would cut at least 3 Careful Study for 3 Unmask. Unmask is just amazing. You guys seriously need to try it. Careful Study was always sided out anyway.

Trying to play G2 and G3 blindly without knowing what your opponent has in store for you makes dredge feel like a Belcher deck that dies to graveyard hate.

The problem I had with dredge was that it was hard being aggressive with the deck after G1. Playing draw-go or turtle dredging and waiting for your opponent's control deck to develop a sweet hand and shit all over me was frustrating. Unmasking that FoW or other counterspell away and being able to cast Breakthrough safely within those small windows of opportunity has definitely made G2 and 3 more manageable despite the hate they bring in.

[sunshine]

I don't think Iona is needed im either MD or SB.
Her hole card just seems to scream "win more!".
MD she is just stealing a slot off a more useful card. I mean, yeah, it's really a blast to DR Iona into play against decks that rely mostly on one certain color, but honestly I have yet to come to a situation in which Iona wins me a game a 15/15 GGT along with his multiple 2/2 friends wouldn't have won it as well.
That's the thing with most DR targets...I don't think you need any besides GGT preboard when you win G1 most of the time anyways.

I'd say you likely play in a rather sheltered, or at least consistent, meta. Iona wins games against all sorts of randomness that Troll and Zombies just roll over to. To give you just a couple examples from the last tourney I brought this deck to (GP Columbus):

- Lands (shutting off recurring Loam to enable a win through Zuran Orb + Tabernacle)
- The Mighty Quinn (win through Moat + StP on Scepter)

In particular the Quinn match was an excellent example - being able to win through Moat + Scepter imprinted with StP is something Dredge has no business doing game one. That's certainly a corner case but the point is there are many viable (and even more played) strategies in Legacy and IMO Iona gives you the most value against the spread. The fact that she also has evasion and hits hard is amazing, giving you (for example) additional outs to Propaganda effects should they hit the board.

At this point I think the deck can easily support at least one DR target main without suffering any noticeable hit to consistency - which if nothing else means you effectively get a 16 card SB.

Is the card "win more"? I don't think so. In the matches you're winning anyway, sure, the card is unnecessary (which can make her feel "win more" depending on your meta), but realistically in those matches so is about 12% of your deck.

It boils down to this: there are 1-2 slots in the main deck that can easily be occupied by DR targets without really harming the deck's consistency. These slots are highly dependent on your meta (where it may even be correct to not play any at all). Given that our SB space is at such a premium I gladly play Iona main and enjoy getting out of jams that wouldn't be possible otherwise - but like I said, this is highly meta dependent.

[Anusien]

Terastodon can also beat Glacial Chasm + Tabernacle if the rest of your deck helps.


I tried Leyline of Sanctity. Nobody mentioned any experience here with it, so let me go ahead and give mine. Totally unimpressed. It never showed up, but they did get milled and made me wish I had Grudge.

One guy had Bojuka Bog in the maindeck and brought in Ravenous Trap. I beat him anyway. Leyline never showed up. Trap is easy to beat if you're prepared for it, and he can't Bog you on your turn, so as long as you have Imp and slowroll a Dredger, you can recover. He can't even beat a Dread Return with Bog.

Everyone else brought in a mix of artifacts. Predominantly they were Relic! I've always been able to beat Relic by just holding draw spells. This was no exception. Plus, some people brought in other relevant cards; E. Plague and Wheel of Sun and Moon were potentials. The guy with Trap could have had Leyline or Planar Void. You have to bring in some other hate just in case. So I found myself boarding 6 hate cards or 7 instead of 4. This was bad.

So yeah, if people are going overboard with 8 hate cards, maybe Leyline is worth it. But I'd rather just bring in Grudges than Leylines against Crypts and Relics.

[HokusSchmokus]

I'd say you likely play in a rather sheltered, or at least consistent, meta. Iona wins games against all sorts of randomness that Troll and Zombies just roll over to. To give you just a couple examples from the last tourney I brought this deck to (GP Columbus):

- Lands (shutting off recurring Loam to enable a win through Zuran Orb + Tabernacle)
- The Mighty Quinn (win through Moat + StP on Scepter)

In particular the Quinn match was an excellent example - being able to win through Moat + Scepter imprinted with StP is something Dredge has no business doing game one. That's certainly a corner case but the point is there are many viable (and even more played) strategies in Legacy and IMO Iona gives you the most value against the spread. The fact that she also has evasion and hits hard is amazing, giving you (for example) additional outs to Propaganda effects should they hit the board.

At this point I think the deck can easily support at least one DR target main without suffering any noticeable hit to consistency - which if nothing else means you effectively get a 16 card SB.

Is the card "win more"? I don't think so. In the matches you're winning anyway, sure, the card is unnecessary (which can make her feel "win more" depending on your meta), but realistically in those matches so is about 12% of your deck.

It boils down to this: there are 1-2 slots in the main deck that can easily be occupied by DR targets without really harming the deck's consistency. These slots are highly dependent on your meta (where it may even be correct to not play any at all). Given that our SB space is at such a premium I gladly play Iona main and enjoy getting out of jams that wouldn't be possible otherwise - but like I said, this is highly meta dependent.

nah, german meta is anything but "sheltered". I have the feeling it's sheer randomness. Though Lands.dec is a deck I rarely played against.
I honestly believe that Iona is completely unnessasary.Main deck that is. SB is a different story, though U tend not to play Iona in SB simply because I find the other options better and much more valuable. I mean, sure, it is definately a huge help against some decks. But do you need the additional help so much that you cut a SB card for it? Don't know. I would'nt do it. Probably will though, if I start losing against Random.decs
or similar stuff. So far, Therapies and Beatdown worked for me.

edit: what would you cut for Iona btw?

[Nidd]

nah, german meta is anything but "sheltered". I have the feeling it's sheer randomness. Though Lands.dec is a deck I rarely played against.
I honestly believe that Iona is completely unnessasary.Main deck that is. SB is a different story, though U tend not to play Iona in SB simply because I find the other options better and much more valuable. I mean, sure, it is definately a huge help against some decks. But do you need the additional help so much that you cut a SB card for it? Don't know. I would'nt do it. Probably will though, if I start losing against Random.decs
or similar stuff. So far, Therapies and Beatdown worked for me.

edit: what would you cut for Iona btw?

Agreed, the german meta isn't defined, it's all over the place. My local meta is predictable and doesn't need Iona, but whenever I'm going to Nuremberg (40+ man tourneys) I sleeve her up.

I guess 1 Thug is the card to cut for Iona.

[HokusSchmokus]

I thoght so.
well, I'm goin to attend a rather big tourney at the end of the month(60+).Without Iona. We'll see how this works out.
Also, I have to decide if I'll sleeve up 3 or 4 Ichorids, but again, we'll see.
#

@Anusien:

I had quite the same experiances as Leyline. You mull for it, you lose cos of speed. You don't mull for it, you dredge that thing-> ray/grudge > leyline. at least it felt that way.

[Nidd]

I thoght so.
well, I'm goin to attend a rather big tourney at the end of the month(60+).Without Iona. We'll see how this works out.
Also, I have to decide if I'll sleeve up 3 or 4 Ichorids, but again, we'll see.

Where are you going?

I'd never sleeve up less than 4 Ichorids. If you have 2 and run out of food, feed one to the other.
Also, it makes SBing easier, at least for me. Boarding out 2 Thugs means 1 Ichorid can go, too.

[HokusSchmokus]

Where are you going?

I'd never sleeve up less than 4 Ichorids. If you have 2 and run out of food, feed one to the other.
Also, it makes SBing easier, at least for me. Boarding out 2 Thugs means 1 Ichorid can go, too.

That's actually a great point.
Oh, I will attend the TRADER- tourney in Dülmen I think.Maybe Iserlohn, too.
Though I might acutally play my lovely lovely WalkerControl in Iserlohn:P too much Zoo there usually.

[Izor]

Hi, guys.
I plan on playing a tourney soon and I chose LEDless Dredge as my deck.
Obviously this is my 1st post but I've been playing legacy for some time now and after some extensive playtesting I wanted to share some of my impressions with this deck with you.

Generally speaking I was impressed by the performance of this deck. I also feel quite comfortable with my build, but there has always been a thing I just couldn't really decide on: Main Deck DR Targets or not. I know this topic has already been discussed a lot in this thread but anyways. I can completely understand the advantages of running NO DR Targets main. The point is that if you try to get the best consistency (4 Careful Study, 15Lands, 11+Dredgers, 4 Tribe etc) you will usually end up having exactly 60 cards together, having no space left for DRTs. But on the other hand having a DRT main also has some benefits. I'm especially referring to Iona, as I think no other DRT (besides Sphinx oLT) should be considered for the MD. It has been said several times that a 2nd turn Iona does nothing a 2nd turn big GGT couldn't do as well. Well, I've encountered several situations in which she does it better. I've lost several games to UW Landstill for example when my opponent was able to kill my tokens with E.Explosives and Plow my GGT at the same time. I've also lost games to Burn, when my opponent simply blocked away my Troll with Fanatics, G.Guides and co, while simultaneously removing my Bridges. Topdecked Volcanic Fallouts got rid of my Tokens. Also Iona seems to be the only way to beat Glacial Chasm locks, Storm Combos and some other hard stuff preboard. Also, the simple fact that Iona is a 7/7 Flyer (3 turn clock) is often underestimated.
In short, the consistency I lost wasn't as obvious as the simple strength I gained. The chance to have at least one of two DRTs in your opening hand is around 22%. Even then it's possible that the hand can be kept or that you would have to mulligan even without them.
So this was the list I came to:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
4 Brakethrough
3 Dread Return

SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor (might become Nature's Claims)
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Firestorm

If I should decide to drop my DRTs I would add a Tarnished Citadel and a Careful Study. In some specific metagames a MD Terastodon might also be considered.

Also one question: How does it work to have only 2 Dread Returns in a DRT-less build? Is that enough to expect 2nd turn Trolls?

Thanks for reading. I'm open for any thoughts and opinions ;-)

[HokusSchmokus]

2nd or 3rd Turn Trolls are common.just remember to ct them enough and everything is fine.

[zmattk]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this deck, I just finished my first build of it and I have been playtesting it a bit. I have a few questions though. I have seen a lot of the recent lists not running FKZ or Sphinx/Sage. When I first played this deck, Sphinx or Sage was needed to win turn 2 or turn 3 and was extremely helpful just to cycle through your deck. I was wondering why people have been cutting these from the deck.

Also, I am going to be entering a tournament hopefully with this deck in about a month and I am having some problems with my sideboard. I was wondering what you guys normally side against certain match ups. Like if I am playing against goblins or any other aggro deck, should I side in Firestorm game 2 and hope I don't see Crypt/Relic, or should I side in my artifact hate like Grudge game 2 and hope I can go off quick enough, or do I side in both. But siding in both would be siding in like 8 cards which doesn't seem like the best idea. And how often do you guys see Leyline of the Void, do only black decks really play it? And do I need both Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim in my sideboard?

Here's my current list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

SB
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Firestorm
1 Terastrodon

I also have Iona but I don't know when I'd want to bring her in over anything else. If you guys could help me out, I would really appreciate it

[Izor]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this deck, I just finished my first build of it and I have been playtesting it a bit. I have a few questions though. I have seen a lot of the recent lists not running FKZ or Sphinx/Sage. When I first played this deck, Sphinx or Sage was needed to win turn 2 or turn 3 and was extremely helpful just to cycle through your deck. I was wondering why people have been cutting these from the deck.

Basically people try to get the best consistency if playing without Lion's Eye Diamond. So many eschew Dread Return Targets in the main deck. Other people prefer Targets, which are less dependent on the Bridges in your Graveyard, like Iona for example.

Also, I am going to be entering a tournament hopefully with this deck in about a month and I am having some problems with my sideboard. I was wondering what you guys normally side against certain match ups. Like if I am playing against goblins or any other aggro deck, should I side in Firestorm game 2 and hope I don't see Crypt/Relic, or should I side in my artifact hate like Grudge game 2 and hope I can go off quick enough, or do I side in both. But siding in both would be siding in like 8 cards which doesn't seem like the best idea. And how often do you guys see Leyline of the Void, do only black decks really play it? And do I need both Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim in my sideboard?

Generally against non-white and non-black decks you can side in Grudges, for Crypt/Relic are their main options of grave-hate. Against Black decks, where you can expect Leyline or Yixlid Jailer you should rather side in Chains/Claims or Firestorms respectively. Same goes for white decks using Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Most people use either Chain or Claim. So 4 Chain and 3 Claim kind of waste some sb space.
Against non-blue Aggro decks Firestorm is not absolutely necessary, so if you think you would dilute your deck too much, just leave them out and concentrate on fighting their hate.
How often you'll see Leyline of course depends on your metagame, but usually it's fairly rare. Non-black decks will usually not use it.

Here's my current list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

SB
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
3 Firestorm
1 Terastrodon

I think you could cut a Sphinx even if you want to keep the Sphinx-FKZ plan. Also, I would personally not leave the house without 4 Tireless Tribes and 4 Breakthrough.

I also have Iona but I don't know when I'd want to bring her in over anything else. If you guys could help me out, I would really appreciate it

Iona is an instant win against mono colored decks in general and many multicolored decks are shut down as well. It also stops annoying things like Glacial Chasm locks. And it's a 7/7 Flyer. Other than that, it doesn't do much other Targets couldn`t do as well.

Maybe I should add that I've compiled a list of the top 30 archetypes of current legacy and for each I wrote down how much Iona on a certain color affects that deck. (3: concede, 2: significant lock, 1: annoying but playable, 0: doesn't care)
9 decks I graded 3, 12 decks were graded 2, 8 decks got a 1 and only Affinity got a 0.