I find Nettle Sentinels to be very useful in an switchover to Aggro. He's also a decent enough clock in the early game that must be answered.
Against other aggro decks, he's no better than a grizzly bear.
Against other aggro decks, you want Symbiote to give you time to setup with the C.A. Elves (visionary, wood elves, v.shaman). If your opponent targets your elves at this point, you're winning.
Is 1 Deranged Hermit enough of a mid game card to warrant a consideration?
What about ambush commander?
Neither of these cards helps against mass sweep. Both cost 5 but provide an army.
The former makes many blockers and can be abused with Symbiote. Gaea's Cradle seems obvious here.
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I think dsg makes a good point when it comes with Vanquishers. However, I think that is still build-dependent.Originally Posted by dsg123456789
I never really like Ambush Commander because you want to make sure that you always have an open mana for it (so you don't get Armageddoned when someone plays a board sweeper). Yes, Ambush Commander also comes with an army but its an army of Llanowar Elves that you will need to hold back to rebuild your board. Deranged Hermit also comes with 2/2 bodies that you won't hesitate to use as a blocker when needed.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@rukcus: the only reason I don't use Nettle Sentinel in my build is to avoid Chalice @ 1 and Countertop. He's very good for the aggro plan, being cheap and having "pseudo-vigilance".
Deranged Hermit is good on its own, and can be very good with Symbiote. I've tested him a little bit and he saved my ass against Zoo a couple times. But he's too expensive for my taste. It's a matter of playstyle, I think.
I don't think Ambush Commander is good mainly because we don't use a high number of lands, and many times my forests are in my hand because of Quirion Ranger.
@Aadz0r: my current list is more similar to the one I've used last champ I've played. I'm testing some tweaks:
-3 Forest, +2 Windswept Heath, +1 Gaea's Cradle: not many stifles here, I think Cradle may be good some times. As I use a high number of lands for this archetype, I don't think a one-lander with it is going to be a big problem.
-1 Joraga Warcaller, +1 Gempalm Strider: Strider can be a nice surprise element against Firespout and similar effects. Not sure it is better than Warcaller overall, though.
-2 Wren's Run Vanquisher, -1 Viridian Shaman, +4 Fauna Shaman: I believe Fauna Shaman improves our overall consistency making every creature you draw the creature you need each turn, and helps getting sideboard cards (Magus of the Moon, Faerie Macabre, etc.). The opponent commonly spend a removal or counterspell on it, what is also good as we have other more powerful elves. However, I may miss Vanquisher in some matches. Oh, and I don't know if I take the Viridian Zealot for the 4th Fauna Shaman, or play with 61 cards.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
It's key to remember that the vanquishers can carry a game on their own. Usually i'm not using their death touch, but their 3/3 for 2. Our deck is very vulnerable to mana disruption, and vanquisher helps with that, because it can get in for 6-9 damage before they can handle it if they're trying to rip apart your manabase.
I've found viridian zealot to be a useless card. I usually play a tee or viridian shaman in it's place, depending on the meta.
@lebarion, in my opinion Terastodon is way way better then Viridian Zealot, even though he is not an elf. He will win you games, and in my eyes, running 1 elf less won't really be a problem...
Also, I'm probably going to run 1 Deranged Hermit instead of 1 Joraga Warcaller...
What's a tee? :-/
As much as Zealot has never been very useful for me, I still fell bad without disenchant effects in my deck. Maybe Viridian Shaman is better, though.
I'm sure it's better for builds with Natural Order, but in my build I don't think so. I never tested it, however.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
Don't forget he only costs 8 land. You'll easily be able to tutor for him with SotF or Fauna Shaman and he gets rid of about anything including your own land to hit your opponent for 18 if combined with Anger... If I were you I would at least test him in your list;)
I did 3-2-1 in a 50-people championship yesterday with the list described in post #743. I'm pretty happy with the results.
I've won against Merfolk, Stax and Zoo.
I've lost to Goblins (he draw the nuts) and GW Survival (Iona turn 3 in one game, too many big beaters in another).
I've ID with countertop Progenitus because he's a friend of mine, we played for fun and I'd won 2-0.
I'm satisfied with the Fauna Shamans, although I've missed the Vanquishers against Golbins. The Shamans where great against Stax, and solid in other matches.
I'd like to put Squee back to main, but don't know what to take out. Maybe the Lord configuration will change, too.
Overall I still think the deck is very good, with many outs to different decks, except combos. Mass removal is bad news, too, but it is possible to work around it.
Last edited by lebarion; 09-13-2010 at 11:23 AM.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
Is this the list you played? (took the list from your report and updated via the changes you mentioned in post #743). Has the sideboard worked out for you? How has Nullmage Shepherd worked out for you vs Counterbalance and Stax?
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Yes, that's the list, except I couldn't find a Gempalm Strider in time and played with 2 Joraga Warcaller, and used Viridian Zealot in the place of Shaman.
I like Nullmage Shepherd against Countertop and Stax, but she was not very useful yesterday. Against countertop she was not needed as my opponent didn't have the chance to setup the combo. In fact, I find Countertop to be quite positive because of the variety of casting costs. I'm 4-1 in matches against it in tournaments.
In the match against Stax yesterday, I saw 2 Krosan Grips besides Zealot and the Shepherd. So although I used it to blow a Crucible, it was overkill. This match is a little bit tricky, but still positive. I try first to put some (usually 3) Priests of Titania/Archdruids in play to avoid tabernacle effects and Ghostly Prisons, then I try to kill him asap before he find Wrath of God. As I've said, I found Fauna Shaman to be very useful here to get the Priests of Titania. I'm 2-2 against them in tournaments, but I think I lost due to unlucky only.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
Guys, I'd like to know your opinion about the lord configuration in this deck, the importance of Squee and disenchant effects.
- How many lords do you play? Which ones? Why?
I'm currently running 12 lord or similar effects (I count Gempalm Strider and Mirror Entity as lords here). I think it is a good number, but I'm thinking about going down to 10 to put Squee back in the maindeck and keep the disenchant effect (not sure it is needed, though).
I don't consider playing less than 4 Imperious Perfect and 4 Elvish Archdruid. Elvish Archdruid allows me to chain Messengers and hardcast Emrakul, which are a big part of the deck's plan. Imperious Perfect token-generation ability works both when you need to be aggressive and defensive.
Elvish Champion makes your guys unblockable in many matches, in other he just pumps them, and against merfolk I don't like them as unblockable Mutavaults are bad news.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is a big body on its own for a reasonable price. Downside is that he gives no other ability and costs 4.
Gempalm Strider is the worse of those, in my opinion. The pros is that he provides a surprise effect in combat and against Piroclasm effects, he dodges Humility, and he 's not bad as a 2/2 for 1G. But 2GG for cycling is a lot, you could be doing something better with the mana, specially if you have an active Survival (unless there's a Humility in play).
- Do you play any disenchant effect maindeck? How useful do you find it to be (before sideboarding)?
I never leave home without Viridian Zealot in my deck, but he's never been very useful. To the point that in my last game against Stax I played it turn 2 and won the game without using its ability. And I've lost against Jitte even with him maindeck. I'm starting to think that it is better to move him to the side, along with 3 Krosan Grip.
- Do you play Squee maindeck?
I've moved Squee to the side when Masked Admirers came to the maindeck, but their roles are completely different. Admirers are useful when comboing to cast Emrakul, but in other situations he's so-so. Squee guarantees you never run out of gas. The card-advantage he generates is insane, specially now that I'm playing 4 Fauna Shamans.
Oh, and one more thing. I'm considering again running Deranged Hermit. There were 2 or 3 situations in the last tournament when he could have saved my ass. If I decide for him, probably Packmaster is going to leave, what is sad...
What's your opinion on these points?
Thanks!
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
@lebarion: How works the combo Admirers X Emrakul?
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hey ruckus,
by any chance, what is your most prefered build of survival elves? does it actually work against the current meta or are you constantly changing your build?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I am working on a list similar to lebarion's that meets halfway between aggro and combo.
I am running NO/Pro/Terastodon maindeck, and I've had very good results with Terastodon against combo/control in the early turns.
8 Mana elves seem to be the key for non-combo Survival Elves, and I'm noticing that Archdruid is also more useful than Priest of Titania in such a build. I play 3 Priests and 4 Archdruids now. This deck is very metagame adjustable - and since mine runs tons of CBtop/Merfolk and Combo, I'm electing to make the deck more reliable against sweepers. Removing the combo helps in that regard since I can simply cast Emrakul to win if I ever get enough mana. (3 lands, 2-3 elves, active survival).
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@rukcus: Do you still run Sylvan Messenger? I have found that I only get 1-2 elfs with him when i'm running the NOPRO package, and sometimes even zero. Therefore I have decided to replace him with Bloodbraid Elf. Until now it seems to be a solid card in the deck. Red mana is not a problem since I run enough fetchland, and this way, you get at least one elf extra in play instead of a questionable amount of elves in your hand. Against control decks he is IMO better too, since his ability will trigger even if he gets countered, and he can be a dangerous creature for slow decks since he hits for at least 3 (usually more) the turn he comes into play.
Also, I have decided to drop the Swords to Plowshares in the deck. I still run white for Mirror Entity and for sideboard Absolute Law. Problem with StP is that you only need him the first few turns, and these are the turns where you will be outtapping most of the time, and if you do keep a white land untapped, most opponents will be able to play around a possible StP. Instead I have added 4x Elvish Spirit Guide. His early game acceleration is just so good, and it's great to see the look on the face of your opponent when he tries to Daze and it gets countered... :D
Thirdly, I am once again running Squee. There were too many times where I needed a creature to win the game to find myself drawing lands and Survivals... Also I have added 1x Masked Admirers to the MB. I don't really like the card, but he helps getting creatures in my hand when I have a SotF out, and the chance to have another combo possibility by adding just one card is just too good to resist.
Last edited by Aadz0r; 09-16-2010 at 08:30 PM.
Whats up guys, after a long time away I decided to post the list i currently play. I ran this with a different sb at Columbus and went 3-3. I went 3-0 to start against Thopter foundry, Glimpse elves and goblins. I proceeded to lose to belcher, 75 cards that say i hate aggro (deed e plague, ee ,impossible matchup.dec) and show and tell. Essentially the only matchup that is poor with this deck is combo and super fast dredge plays. My new sideboard hopefully address's this problem. As one of the early innovators of this deck I believe this to be the most optimal list, you could change sideboard for your meta but the mainboard is solid and a blast to play.
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Progenitus
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Champion
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
9 Forest
Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Emrukal, Aeons Torn--> Mainly to recur macabre against grave decks.
@thebirdman: I don't really agree on your list.You run 8 survival cards, but you don't run a survival toolbox. I'm guessing you want to be able to change your llanowar elves into lords. With this plan however, I would personally prefer to only run 4x Survival of the Fittest and change your Fauna Shamans into Sylvan Messengers. This way your survival engine can also chain Messengers and get a huge amount of elves into play at one time and swing for the win.
Also, why don't you run Wirewood Symbiote's? They can speed you up, they serve for protection, and if you do decide to run Sylvan messengers they have great synergy.
The 8 survival are huge because they get anger in the yard which is what makes the deck explosive. Messenger was in the original deck. He is cool in theory but is only able to be chained with symbiote when there is no disruption where you should win anyway, this goes the same for mirror entity. The other problem with symbiote is that he isn't an elf and gets no bonuses. You are going to win most games with natural order by baiting lords for counters. Also, messenger usually only nets me 2 creatures one being a llanowar where the 8 survival get me what I needed and recurs macabre. Finally this isn't a survival deck, just an elf deck that runs survival. any toolbox used wont be elves and will just gum up a tight list.
Seems fine, but then, doesn't it take too long to get Anger in your grave with the Shaman. I mean, first you play him, next turn you survival for Anger and the turn after you can finally get him into your grave. This gives your opponent 2 turns to get rid of her. However, if this works for you, then don't mind me;)
New card from SOM:
Ezuri, Renegade Leader 1GG
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior Rare
{G}: Regenerate another target Elf.
2{G}{G}{G}: Elf creatures you control get +3/+3 and gain trample until end of turn.
Illus. Karl Kopinski 2/2
What do you guys think about adding this one to the deck... Seems a good card against aggro decks or decks packing mass removal. Perhaps as a 2-off?
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