[DTB] Vial Goblins

[ScatmanX]

Faerie Macabre and Crypt are dead cards too when you don't have them in turn 1-3, cause that's the time when their GY becomes ugly.

I don't think this is true.
Faeries help me a lot against Loam, even later in the game, when they want to Dredge LftL, and I dan remove it, even after a CotV@1. Smae is true for Vengevival, where they can find Survival only on turns 4 or more, then you can be prepared.
Dredge is way tuffer though, but sometimes, removing Bridge or Ichorids is enough.

[jrw1985]

Most of what you say is true, BUT...

you do not have to mull to Leyline.

That's exactly what I said in my post:
Against decks you would bring Leyline in (Lands, Dredge, SUrvival, Aggro Loam) you should by no means mull to Leyline because you can simply keep hands that are strong enough even without GY hate.

Yes! Exactly! Which is also exactly why you should board GY hate that is actually playable outside of your opening 7! AKA- Not Leyline. If your gameplan (yes YOU, personally, GoboLord-- your gameplan, as stated above) is to keep solid starting hands that don't have Leyline, then you should be playing something else for GY hate. It just makes sense. Leyline isn't castable. It serves no practical purpose outside the first hand.

Faerie Macabre and Crypt are dead cards too when you don't have them in turn 1-3, cause that's the time when their GY becomes ugly.

hrmf...
My turn to do the number crunching!
If you side in 4 Tormod's Crypts your chance of drawing one...
In the opening 7 = 49.18%
8th card = 56.73%
9th card = 64.42%
10th card = 72.26%

So your chance of drawing one within the timeframe you sited is better and the effect will be the same (possibly moreso- having Leyline in play turn 0 makes your opponent play around it from the beginning. A faerie or Crypt in hand can trap your opponent into comitting resources to a GY recusion strategy, then stripping them).

I think I've proven my point here. Running Non-Leyline GY hate actually makes it far more likely to get GY hate in the games where you need it! Because you can still play Non-Leyline cards after the first turn you are much more likely to disrupt your opponent's GY recursion.

My hope, really, is that you swap out your Leylines for some Crypts or Faeries. Then try them out for a tournament or two and see if you aren't convinced. I too used to believe in the power of the Leyline. There was no better start than a Leyline and a Lackey. Unfortunately I soon found that my opponents had too many answers to Leyline. Bounce and removal destroyed my game plan, and left me drawing into dead cards. It became clear that having flexible, playable options was the best solution for disrupting GY recursion.

[GoboLord]

Ok, your reasoning has a point, BUT...(and this time it's my last but)

I do not want to draw GY hate in the curse of the game. That's why I'd never run more than 3 copies. For any other GY hate to be effective you need 4 copies, cause they are not as finishing and game-breaking as Leyline.
You say that they wil just play around Leyline from the beginning. Would you please tell me how Lands, Aggro Loam, Dredge and Survival can play around Leyline?
As for your hope: I actually swapped Relics for Extirpate for Crypts for Faeries for Leyline (each after a long period of testing, cause I can't stand if someone -including me- talks about cards he has never played).

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Leyline is the GY hate card. I'm just pointing out why it works out for me better than any other GY hate did so far.

[Nelis]

I think the fact that Relic also removes cards without having to sacrifice it is a very strong ability which makes it much more useful vs any graveyard based deck not counting dredge than any of the other graveyard removal available.

@Gobolord: Survival just survivals for enchantment removal. Aggro Loam can wait for their enchantment removal, it has more than enough other things to do. No clue about Lands or Dredge, I don't know those decks well enough to know how they handle graveyard hate.

[Talanos]

I think Gobo's point is that he'd rather maximize the number of amazing openings as opposed to drawing into a less optimal GY hate on turn X. If he doesn't draw leyline, he hopes to just win off mountain-lackey-go or vial-go as he would have in game one. If he does draw leyline, he gets continuous suppression of their entire gameplan online starting turn 0. The time it takes them to get any kind of answer and then start from scratch is probably enough to win.

It's sort of like saying that he'd rather crush 1/3 of the time than have a one shot advantage 3/4 of the time, perhaps because he feels that with a hate card that's easier to play around, he'd rather just have drawn some goblin pressure instead.

Of course, he's making a qualitative judgment that leyline is just so much better than the other options should you open with it that it justifies the gambit, but that's his call to make. The question to ask is, how much more likely is leyline to buy you the time to win vs. crypt, etc.? If opening leyline results in a win X% more of the time than a crypt, and Y% is the difference in your chances of opening with a leyline vs. drawing a crypt in the first 3 turns, then is X% greater than Y%? Obviously, it may not be possible to judge this to precision, but clearly Gobo has, at least intuitively, decided that it is.

[GoboLord]

I think Gobo's point is that he'd rather maximize the number of amazing openings as opposed to drawing into a less optimal GY hate on turn X. If he doesn't draw leyline, he hopes to just win off mountain-lackey-go or vial-go as he would have in game one. If he does draw leyline, he gets continuous suppression of their entire gameplan online starting turn 0. The time it takes them to get any kind of answer and then start from scratch is probably enough to win.

It's sort of like saying that he'd rather crush 1/3 of the time than have a one shot advantage 3/4 of the time, perhaps because he feels that with a hate card that's easier to play around, he'd rather just have drawn some goblin pressure instead.

...just a short and wonderfullly clear explanation of what my worried mind wants to tell you. Thanks =)

You may be blessed with the title "Official GoboLord-translator".

[Nidd]

I think the fact that Relic also removes cards without having to sacrifice it is a very strong ability which makes it much more useful vs any graveyard based deck not counting dredge than any of the other graveyard removal available.

When Relic's Tap ability removes relevant cards, we can call that a cornercase, I think. Against Dredge, like you said, the Tap does literally nothing. Against Loam/Lands, I guess they can play around this and also have other stuff hitting their GY so that they don't have to remove relevant stuff.

I think that you either need to wipe out their whole GY (Crypt, Relic activation, Spellbomb) or take out keycards (Faerie Macabre) in order to succeed. Or you land stuff like Planar Void or Leyline, which take care of stuff anyways, if they stay on the battlefield.

Tapping Relic and hoping to do something with it is the worst form of GY hate, I'd rather take the speed of Crypt + Spellbomb than the guaranteed cantrip + the bad Tap ability.

[Talanos]

*grins*

*adds sig*

I may have to share the honor with Google, though. ;)

[Vandalize]

Do we really need to totally disrupt your opponent's GY?
I mean, goblin is a really fast deck, you can put a lot of damage in a few turns. Against Dredge, which is a faster deck, you can really disrupt people with a single crypt. They will need 3 or 4 turns to get their combo working again.
Each deck has a best option for GY hate.

Relic of Progenitus is great against Vengevival.
Tormod's is great dredge, Loam decks.
Leyline is the best GY disrupt, although, it might rain on your parade if you don't draw it in your opening hand.

I think the point is just survive until you can smack them with piledrivers or whatever.

[Tacosnape]

My turn to do the number crunching!
If you side in 4 Tormod's Crypts your chance of drawing one...
In the opening 7 = 49.18%
8th card = 56.73%
9th card = 64.42%
10th card = 72.26%

So your chance of drawing one within the timeframe you sited is better and the effect will be the same (possibly moreso- having Leyline in play turn 0 makes your opponent play around it from the beginning. A faerie or Crypt in hand can trap your opponent into comitting resources to a GY recusion strategy, then stripping them).

Your logic and math are both flawed, because you have more information than that. You -know- what your first seven cards are. If you don't see the card in the first seven, the chances are no longer 72.26% for you to hit one in the next three cards. They're less than 10%. Therefore if you think you need to mulligan into graveyard hate to win, you -still- need to Mulligan that seven card hand, because you're not going to keep it.

You also don't factor in that Leyline of the Void is more powerful, faster, uncounterable/unstifleable (Nice versus UG Vengesur), and immune to discard, which is pretty important given that a ton of yard-reliant decks pack black.

You ALSO have to factor in how much it costs a deck to board in four graveyard hate cards. Goblins, more than most decks, suffers from boarding a ton of stuff in. If, for example, you pack Pyrokinesis, Pithing Needle, and Leyline of the Void all in your sideboard and you're facing Vengevine Survival, boarding all three in heavily thins your goblin base. Therefore with Goblins, you're probably not going to bring in your yard hate until you -really- need it, meaning you're more likely to want the strongest piece possible, which would in most cases be Leyline of the Void.

I'm not necessarily advocating Leyline, don't get me wrong. Topdecking it is awful, and it's highly vulnerable to bounce. I'm just pointing out that you can't make all the subtle points and skewed math in favor of your choice and abandon the arguments in favor of the other.

[Thomas1991]

hi guys i am currently testing greater gargadon in de sideboard agains jitte and maybe ichorid?

my thinking was that most decks that run jitte can't destroy gargadon and you can prevent jitte to get counters.

im also playing mogg warmarshall main against the zoo matchup so yeah

anjy thoughts?

[Neuad]

Small tournement report. Was only 4 rounds cut to top8.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MPR] Wasteland
2 [U] Taiga
6 [ON] Mountain (3)
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [UL] Harmonic Convergence

Current list. Harmonic Convergence is because we see ALOT of enchantress so I need a way around Karmic Justice.

Round1 vs Deedstill.

Game1 - I win and go first. Mountain Lackey go. he goes USea Innocent Blood. Turn 2 Mountain lackey go. He ghastly demises it. He drew every answer he could to all my stuff and we were off to game2.

No boarding as I don't have many answers short of blowing up in his face.

Game2 - Turn1 vial off a waste go. Got a lackey in there but he failed to connect, then a deed ruined my night, followed by a tsabo's decree naming goblins. I scooped and went to the bar before round2.

Round2 vs a friends UW countertop landstill mix of bad.

Game1 - He keeps my lackey from connecting by vial gets me an army out, and I swing for the win on turn4 or 5.

Didn't think to board in enchantment hate because I know he runs MD humility/moat but ohwell, no boarding.

Game2 - He gets turn4 Humility turn5 Elspeth. I scoop.

Board out 2 weirdings and 1 scourger for 3 Harmonic Convergences.

Game3 - Lackey gets there, brings out Ringleader into 3 goblins. Army gets there on turn4.

Round3 vs Excalibur/Zoo mix (equipment heavy zoo deck) budget. . .no fetches or duals.

Game1 - He doesn't draw any removal, and I'm able to weirding his blocker out of the way and swing for the win turn 4 or 5.

Board out Sharpshooter, Chieftan, and Kiki for 3 perishes.

Game2 - First turn lackey connects bringing in a wort. He draws no removal and I'm able to weirding him every turn. . . draw into a perish and a 2nd black source. Perish > Weirding > swing for win on turn 6 or 7.

Round4 vs Goblins w/ small white splash.

Game1 - I keep an opener of Land land lackey sharpshooter warchief something something, don't know what I'm playing. Vial off a wasteland go. He plays lackey. I look at the sharpshooter in my hand and laugh. I keep him from attacking with his lackey with a pile driver, turn 3 I put the warchief in with vial, then sharpshooter and ping away his team. He doesn't get to refuel and I get there.

-2 Weirdings
+2 Pyrokenesis

Game2 - Turn 1 vial, turn2 vial. . .he can't keep up with my tempo after a crafter comes down, and I get there with 2 warchiefs with crafter clearing the way.


Top8 round1 vs zoo

Game1 - I keep an opener of lackey land land goblins. Dont see another land and get run over.

Board out sharpshooter, tinkerer, and a lackey for 3 perishes

Game2 - Lackey gets bolted, managed to stick a chief. . .ringleadered into 4 goblins. . played some. . .ringleadered next turn into 4 goblins. . .with 3 drivers and 3 others on table, vs his 3 blockers, I matron for a scourger, bounce a blocker. Play the 2nd scourger in my hand, and swing for lethal thanks to Sylvan Library.

Game3 - Same as game1, didnt draw any land past my opening 2 and just got ran over by nacatl's.

Sorry it's not very specific, still working on taking better notes and remembering stuff better.

Now I have a question.

In the mirror match round4. . .board state looked like this.


He had 4 lands in play. Port Waste Fetch Mountain. He's at 8

I had 4 lands. . .mountain x4. . .2 vials (set at like 3 and 4, but tapped) 2 tapped warchiefs, and an untapped crafter (under a lackey). I'm at 18 or 19

We both had a few cards in hand. End of my turn he cycles gempalm to kill my crafter.

I tap my crafter blowing up my warchief. Was this the correct play? With his life total was saving my crafter more important then that warchief, seeing as crafter was 3 a turn no matter what?

[ScatmanX]

I tap my crafter blowing up my warchief. Was this the correct play? With his life total was saving my crafter more important then that warchief, seeing as crafter was 3 a turn no matter what?

I think you could be right in that situation. Crafter wins the mirror, and you had a 2nd Warchief in play, so yeah, nice move.

[GoboLord]

Now I have a question.

In the mirror match round4. . .board state looked like this.


He had 4 lands in play. Port Waste Fetch Mountain. He's at 8

I had 4 lands. . .mountain x4. . .2 vials (set at like 3 and 4, but tapped) 2 tapped warchiefs, and an untapped crafter (under a lackey). I'm at 18 or 19

We both had a few cards in hand. End of my turn he cycles gempalm to kill my crafter.

I tap my crafter blowing up my warchief. Was this the correct play? With his life total was saving my crafter more important then that warchief, seeing as crafter was 3 a turn no matter what?

He didn't have creatures. He's at 8 and you are at 18. That means that he's in defense.
I'd have shot him for 3 in response, let Crafter die to have deadly 5 damage (2 Warchief, 1 Lackey) on table for next turn. This means that he has to deal with 3 creatures that have do 5 dmg instead of 2 creatures that have to to 8 dmg.

[ScatmanX]

He's at 8.

Totally skipped this part.
Yeah, Gobbo is right...
And, after Gempalm, he'll only have 2 lands in play (one of them a fetch) to deal with your guys.

[TheSleeper]

Anyone read C Phillips latest report (free on SCG) where he T4'd with BR Goblins - thoughts on this list/SB?

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Tribal Sorceries
2 Warren Weirding

Basic Lands
5 Mountain

Lands
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish

[ScatmanX]

Started reading the report.
Match 1, game 2: He is on the play, but side out Goblin Lackey. Does anyone do that?
It seems like a terrible choice to me...
Also, he sides out Mogg Warmarchal against Dredge. Do people that run him do that?

[jrw1985]

Started reading the report.
Match 1, game 2: He is on the play, but side out Goblin Lackey. Does anyone do that?
It seems like a terrible choice to me...
Also, he sides out Mogg Warmarchal against Dredge. Do people that run him do that?

I need to become a member. I really want to read that article. I saw in his follow-up that he sides out Lackey. That doesn't seem good to me at all, but the fact that he plays 4 War Marshalls suggests that he plays a less aggressive game and plans on doing a lot of chump blocking as he builds his horde. Dunno. Removing Lackey seems way too counter-intuitive. But, against an Aggro deck, how often does Lackey get through game 2?

[ScatmanX]

I need to become a member. I really want to read that article. I saw in his follow-up that he sides out Lackey. That doesn't seem good to me at all, but the fact that he plays 4 War Marshalls suggests that he plays a less aggressive game and plans on doing a lot of chump blocking as he builds his horde. Dunno. Removing Lackey seems way too counter-intuitive. But, against an Aggro deck, how often does Lackey get through game 2?

You don't need Premium to read that report.

I realize Lackey rarely connects against agroo when we're on the Draw, but that game 2 he was on the Play.

[HerrFunker]

hello I mostly play MTGO where Port is not available. I have read the past 20 or so pages. I play Black splash goblins for SB and WW. My question is do you think in splash goblins where port is not available is it worth running 3 mutavaults? I only run 1 chieftain and no Instigators currently. I can see it being helpful to get that 1 extra damage on the incinerator or for a body to swing after the firespout. Is it worth being more susceptible to Wastland? also hi I'm the newbie.