This is in my opinion a matter of preference. I understand why people want to run 4 and it certainly has its benefits. For me, however, 3 has always been enough. 3 is usually enough to win a game through DDDing without ever playing a land or casting a spell (which happens quite often against Stax and the like). 3 is also enough to flashback the Dread Returns whenever one wants. In fact, I've never had difficulties with that, even if I didn't reanimate any Ichorid in my Upkeep. 3 Ichorids, 8 discard Dorks, 4 Moebas in conjunction with 4 Therapies and 4 Bridges should always be enough. Also, I've very often had situations when I just had as many black creatures in my graveyard as I had Ichorids. And then I always found that the 4th would be too much. Generally, at that point when you start feeding one Ichorid to another quite often, I think the 4th is too much. And the last point that made me run 3 is the fact that it's one more dead card in your opening hand.Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I think one can compare the 3 Ichorid vs 4 Ichorid issue to the Dread Return problem. 3 is definitely better, bacause it basically halves the chance that you don't hit one after resolving Breakthrough on turn 2. But as we don't necessarily need to play DR in order to win and as it's also a dead card in the opener, many people are satisfied with 2. The only instances when I really miss the 4th Ichorid is when one or two get Sworded or Pathed.
@ Zappa: Congratz for a good finish. Yes, it might be that Iona could have saved you the match against Survival and it would probably have been the better option over Angel, for you didn't face a problematic permanent from what I read in your post. But anyway, after the tourney it's always easy to claim what should have been different and also, VengeVival is simply a damn good deck (although I believe that the Dredge matchup belongs to their worse).
And I really like your list, it's almost the same as I use to run. I think, however, that the 4th Tribe could help you (also against VV if they don't have Wonder). You don't have room for it?
I could probably take out a land for the 4th tribe, but running 15 really satisfies my comfort level. I could take out the darkblast, but I've come across several scenarios where it is just nice to have access to when I can. I could take out the 1 MD dread return target, I mean yes, I can agree that GGT is enough to win games. However, I feel that the deck will do indeed get a little more consistency, at a cost of power (Iona simply wins games). But it is just not something I feel comfortable doing, it's all about balance for me, and deck is consistent enough with just 1. The only thing left for me to consider is the breakthrough or the careful study. However, majority of my matches I tend to board out breakthrough, as I favor careful study. But breakthrough is my favorite card on game 1s however. So at the moment I am at a loss, what to take out for the 4th, but I am comfortable with my current set up though.
Vengevine matchup was hard, but I think I could have won that match, had I played things differently. But no point thinking about it now. Final match though against that helm deck was a nightmare. I was glad for running 15 lands, and being able to cast and just swing with Imps and narcomoebas.
Well atleast I got some experience playing against survival, I saw quite a bit of players too playing with it, just some people uses red. I guess it's the flavor of the month.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
I just started testing a similar build with -1 Ichorid, +1 Iona coz I think GGT sometimes isn't fast enough in an aggro infested meta and it looks good on paper since it has 11 dredgers, 11 discard outlets, 10 draw effects, and 10 rainbow lands.
Hi everbody
I'm new to this site and I need some help...
Can anyone show me the best Ichorid deck for the moment? And maybe give some advice about other decks?
My regards
Ian
The best Ichorid deck depends on your meta. And for other decks, knowledge is key. Read other DTB or Established threads.
Question: What DR target would be the most effective in todays meta that's infested with survival decks? I don't think Iona (on green) can slow down Survival anymore coz I noticed they bring other non green creatures like memnite, shield sphere, shrieking drake, etc. in their 75 so that they can trigger vengvines. I even saw Gilded Drakes and Waterfront Bouncers in some lists during last weekend's legacy tournament.
I think its time for a 2nd turn terastodon. stax are also getting back on the meta. I was a defeated by a rouge blue bulls hit deck that packed a propaganda game 1.
It's kinda difficult to pull off a 2nd turn rasta don on a consistent basis. Plus they have Fauna Shaman (which rasta don can't touch) as survival copy #5-8. I'm looking for a DR target that can turn things around (against survival) on the 3rd or 4th turn (If such a creature does exist). I dropped Iona in the hybrid list (simillar to sa17dk) that I am currently testing for Reveillark (coz I really can't think of any other creature at the moment).
yah i agree its kinda hard. but i think our option is we just force to be faster or shut it down there and there. we need to have answer that can do those things once we dr. Im thinking of angel of despair, terastodon, blazing archon, iona on green. are they really that consistent on a turn 2 survival.
What about the Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Big, with Vigilace, Flying and Lifelink, al proGreen. Simply great VS Vengevines if your opponent has no removal in his hand... or we have an Iona
Targets like Sphinx of the steel Wind could be good against VengeVival, but I don't think that such a creature should be used in Dredge at all. A creature has to have a certain effective ability in order to be played. Creatures that are just bombs only take away our important slots.
Permanent destroyers like Terastodon and Woodfall Primus are rather efficient and you can still therapy away the remaining Survivals and Fauns Shamans from their hand.
Blazing Archon can abvioisly buy you some time but I'm not sure if it can win for you in the end.
So for me Iona is still the best bet. She's a 7/7 Flyer, who will certainly race a significantly slowed Survival engine. Even IF the Survival deck runs Memnite and other non-green creatures, those will never be enough to recur VVs more than once after Iona enters the field. Lists that run Withe for removal will have less problems against Iona of course.
Generally, if you know you're up against Survival of any sort, just try to get your hands on Cabal Therapy. Without Survival, a Survival deck becomes a mediocre Aggro deck at best, especially the VV builds. If you get the chance you can also Therapy away Fauna Shamans, but I don't think that Fauna Shamans would be able to race our clock like Survival can. So as long as they don't topdeck like an idiot after Therapy, you shuld race them.
I havent been playing dredge as long as some of you guys. But would Leyline of the Void help in the survial matchup?
Well, most of them tend to mulligan into survival.
Iona on green can slow them down but I think the window created by Iona for dredge to win nowadays just got smaller. Yes, It'll be hard for them to recur VVs more than once but I think they won't need to recur them more than once to win. They can survival up all 4 Vengvines EOT and just cast memnite+shield sphere or memnite+shieking drake on their turn and race you from that point. Plus if they have waterfront bouncers and gilded drakes they can just bounce Iona (On Green) or even worse, use her against you. I've also seen lists with Quiron Ranger which speeds up the Fauna Shaman engine. The good thing here is that because they put in more utility creatures, they have less countermagic to stop you so yeah, early CT on Fauna/Survival will be enough to win you the game (unless they top deck another copy of course).
For me, I'd rather board in Pithing Needles, Nature's Claim, or Ray of Revelation than LoTV against survival. I'm not a fan of LoTV as a sideboard card for dredge since you 1) need it in your opening hand (which means adding another component to look for in an opening hand) and 2) can't cast it when you draw it (which makes it a dead card).
Last edited by SHABOOGS; 11-09-2010 at 08:31 PM. Reason: added my 0.02 on LoTV
I totally agree.
Nonetheless, the answer to the initial question is: Yes, of course does Leyline help against Survival decks. They will rarely be prepared for it, so it should be able to win you games on its own.
But as Shaboogs said, it's very risky to take that route. Dredge already has certain requirements for its oprning hand, so having to mulligan into Leyline will more often than not leave you with a really bad hand in the end. So it's really only worth boarding Leyline if it will win you the game on its own, so if you don't need a really fast hand to back it up (like for example in the mirror, against Cephalid Breakfast or against Reanimator). Against Lands or Threshold, however, against which most decks will usually board their grave hate, boarding Leyline with Dredge might be a bad idea, because the necessary mulligans couldl actually slow you down more than your opponent.
So you should only board Leylines against VengeVival if you're sure you can afford the mulligans (or if you feel extremely lucky). Apart from that, versatile things like Nature's Claim will help just as much (if you remove Survival directly after it comes into play, your opponent will probably never get the chance to use it).
Sorry, I forgot to answer the question and I agree with what Izor said. But I'd like to add, if you plan on running LoTV, just be mindful of trygon predators in the survival's 75.
Could you or anyone else write your general sideboarding strategy against several typical archetypes? I just began playing dredge with the same MD, and while playing dredge itself is clear to me, I really have little idea what can be taken from MD in sideboarding process and keep the right balance of discard outlets, dredge cards, etc.
Last edited by Careve; 11-16-2010 at 09:48 AM.
In general, the cards that can be cut from the main deck when sideboarding are: Ichorid, Careful Sudy/Breakthrough, Golgari Thug, Cabal therapy, Tarnished Citadel, all maindecked Dread Return targets and maybe a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe or two. The rest of the deck should be left untouched in order to keep consistency. Which of the above-mentioned cards and in what numbers you should take out depends on what deck you're playing against and on what you want to board in. Some examples:
Against Combo (ANT, TES, DDFT,...):
Here I would take in everything that could be relevant in your board. Chosen and Unmask for your specific list should definitely come in. What you can cut are Ichorids, for they're much too slow against that opponent. Ancient grudge can also come in handy, because you can force them to sac their LEDs whenever you want. So for your list I would probably board something like:
+1 Ancestor's Chosen, +2 Unmask, -1 Angel of Despair, +3 Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim; -3 Ichorid, -1 Darkblast, -1 Tarnished Citadel
Against Aggro (Zoo, Merfolk, Bant, Goblins, Survival, Death and Taxes, White Weenie, ...):
Firestorm and Chosen are your best friends here. Also you should board according to their hate, so generally either 4 Nature's Claim or Ancient grudge. What can be cut are an Ichorid, some Dredgers, Careful Studies and Angel of Despair. Ichorid is not that important against Aggro for he's rather slow. Against non-blue Aggro a Cabal Therapy can also go out. So:
-1 Angel of Despair, -4 Careful Study, -1 Ichorid, -1 Cabal Therapy, -2 Golgari Thug; +4 Firestorm, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, +4 Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim (always Claim against Survival. And Claim if you expect Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon. Otherwise, take Grudges)
Against Control (Landstill variants, Slower CounterTop variants, Mono-U Control,...)
You want to concentrate on beating their hate here, for you will usually win easily as soon as you got rid of it and got your engine going. So I would board in a combination of Grudges, Claims and Ray of Revelation. Which ones you should take of course depend on what kind of hate they have, but against basically all control decks, 4 Grudges are a house. Nature's Claim should complement or replace grudges if you expect things like Humility, Propaganda as well as Leyline and Wheel again. As I said it depends a lot on different aspects. But roughly:
-4 Careful Study, -1 Darkblast; +4 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ray of Revelation (Landstill, CounterTop) or +4 Nature's Claim, +1 Ray of Revelation (MUC)
Other decks:
Against field locking (control)- decks like Lands, Stax or Enchantress you would really love to have Terastodon or Woodfall Primus over Angel of Despair. Anyway, definitely take in all the Nature's Claims and complement them by one or two Ancient Grudges and/or Ray of Revelation. Careful Studies and a Darkblast should go.
Remember that those were only rough ideas. Other people might board otherwise and certain matchups might require specific strategies, which I didn't mention for I only grouped the most common deck archetypes together.
Accidentally double-posted, Sorry for that.
Have had plenty of practice against survival now. I don't know, I do not find that match up all that hard at all anymore. My loss from back then was just due to me not having absolutely any experience playing against it. But for me, I find Cabal Therapy and Unmasks to be enough, though it does dilute the deck a bit since I'm adding Nature's Claim as well. However, instead of replacing specific cards that I normally take out. Since I am bringing in more cards than usual, I tend to take out certain pieces, in order to keep a consistent ratio of the pieces. Like land/outlet/draw/dredger. Some lists that runs blue can be annoying with their brainstorm response though.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
Vengevines don't seem to be a problem at all. Most Survival decks only have Jitte to remove your bridges, and they can't 20 you. So it seems really easy to get to a point where you have enough flying blockers and whatnot to not get killed, then swing back for lethal. You get to a point where they can never attack, so you just keep making Zombies with Ichorid.
The problem card is Necrotic Ooze.
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