[DTB] Vial Goblins

[ScatmanX]

(1) How would you side against Goblins with this list?

(2) How would you side against Rock with this list?

(3) Would you add splashes? Which one? Why?

(4) Should I run Rishadan Port or not?

1) -4 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

2) +1 Liege, -1 MwM

3) If you don't want to splash, I'd add a 2nd Boartusk in place of Pyromancer to fight Junk's Plague. Does this version does well against Vengevine?

4) Yes. There's no reason to run at least 2 there, and I think 3 may be the right number.

Alright, so it's turn 3 with the total god-hands and facing someone with zero removal and zero blockers. The draw engine doesn't ever come online in these examples, because it's so slow with Lackey as the only accel. Has anyone tried petals, moxen or tombs to make the deck any faster?

The deck does not need to be that fast, though we can. T1 Vial, T2 Port, T3 Wasteland is a great move agains a great number of decks.
Goblins have the benefit of being an agroo deck with a great lategame. We have both fast and slow elements, and cards to support both strategies. Cards like Mogg Warmachal can delay something like Zoo's clock a lot, while we gather mana, disrupt them, and draw cards. And that's awesome, because we have a way better lategame than they have...
Also, Lackey connects a great number of times, specially if you opponent don't know what you're playing, so T3/4 kills happens quite often. Here are 2 more for you:

t1 - Lackey
t2 - Bolt a blocker, hit, drop Warchief + Piledriver.
t3 - Matron for Piledriver. win

t1 lackey
t2 hit, Drop SGC, cast MWM
t3 Chieftein. (2 dmg from fetchlands)

t1 lackey
t2 hit, drop Boartusk Liege, cast Piledriver.
t3 Cast Chieftein.

[GoboLord]

1) -4 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

2) +1 Liege, -1 MwM

3) If you don't want to splash, I'd add a 2nd Boartusk in place of Pyromancer to fight Junk's Plague. Does this version does well against Vengevine?

4) Yes. There's no reason to run at least 2 there, and I think 3 may be the right number.

Thanks Amon & Scatman, that's pretty much what I thought. There two things I don't agree with:

(1)
Armon said, that Sharpshooter > Pyromancer.
My intuition tells me the same, but I fear that those Goblin decks will be well prepared for the mirror and will therefore pack more Chieftains/Goblin King. Those guys virtually nullify Sharpshooter. That's why Sharpshooter < Boartusk Liege, for me.
I'd be glad if the mirror is skill-intense. So far I didn't lose a Goblon mirror-match, which means that either my list has always been in favor or I just know how to do it.


(2)
Scatman said, that he'd board this way in the mirror:

-4 Piledriver, -1 Warchief, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

I thought of
On the play: -1 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, -3 Lightning Bolt , +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer
On the draw: -4 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, +3 Knesis, +1 Liege, +1 Pyromancer.

I feel that being on the play forces your opponent to have Lightning Bolt, Kinesis or Lackey on his opening hand, because he pobably has to deal with my own T1-Lackey. Therfore I'd kick out Lightning Bolt on the play.

What do you think?

btw. Would anybody like to practice the mirror-match with me on Magic Workstation? If so, please let me know (via PM).

[antonbystedt]

I really don't want to anger you, but I have to say that the G/W version of Vengevival is a good MU for us.
What you need to realize (I guess) is this: Graveyard hate wont stop them, cause the GW-list is (unlike U/G) totally aggro. They don't have that much discard outlets (they miss Aquamoeba, Mongrell) and they don't run 4 Basking Rootwalla. G/W lists don't have Wonder as well. Therefore:
If you are up against G/W Vengevival you are up against a inferior aggro-deck. Just try to stall them with your Mogg-War Marshal and probably some SGCs. Aim for their Green non-basics, and burn down their Mother of Runes and Hierarchs.
I find Pyrokinesis much more usefull against them than Extirpate.

Well...this is only true for G/W (against which I was able to test a lot), not for U/G.

Death n Taxes is a tough MU if they are packing G. I guess G splash for Nature's Claim and TSH should help here (cause without their Vial and nasty Equipments DnT is just a slow aggro deck)

The thing is, both of the G/W Surv decks i faced, had both Wonder, i thought about chumping with MWM and such, but it always end with thiers Goyfs and Venges flying over my team.

[Arew]

If your extremely worried about the mirror, you could throw in eithe a Goblin Mage or Goblin King in the SB as a one of.

[GoboLord]

The thing is, both of the G/W Surv decks i faced, had both Wonder, i thought about chumping with MWM and such, but it always end with thiers Goyfs and Venges flying over my team.

If it's really G/W Surv, then Wonder is plain useless

Wonder

Creature - Incarnation 2/2, 3U (4)
Flying

As long as Wonder is in your graveyard and you control an Island, creatures you control have flying.

If they had U splash just for that, their mana-base is even weaker than the G/W's. G/W Survival's manabase is something like that:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 G-Fetchland
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
2 Forest

Their manabase is obviously their weak point, that's why I'm advocation not to aim at their GY but at their manabase (which includes oble Hierarchs)

[ScatmanX]

@Gobbo: I guess I'd use your "on the draw" option only. Bolt lets your t1 lackey connect trough an enemy lackey, giving you 9 (if I counted right) ways to do that. Also, they can really surprise people with combat tricks, or even if just bluffing them.

Piledriver completely sucks here, so I see no need for leaving 3 of them in... (1off would be fine, like I've been doing against Zoo, since sometimes, we just need the Big Dude).

@Arew. Goblin King is bad, since it works both ways. Also, if you cast it only for the Alphastrike, it is also bad, since you opponent can burn him out, and block your guys...
And I guess Goblin Mage does not exist...

[Arew]

@Gobbo: I guess I'd use your "on the draw" option only. Bolt lets your t1 lackey connect trough an enemy lackey, giving you 9 (if I counted right) ways to do that. Also, they can really surprise people with combat tricks, or even if just bluffing them.

Piledriver completely sucks here, so I see no need for leaving 3 of them in... (1off would be fine, like I've been doing against Zoo, since sometimes, we just need the Big Dude).

@Arew. Goblin King is bad, since it works both ways. Also, if you cast it only for the Alphastrike, it is also bad, since you opponent can burn him out, and block your guys...
And I guess Goblin Mage does not exist...

Ah, for some reason I thought Goblin King read Goblins you control, and I always forget Goblin Mage is actually Goblin Pyromancer, the guys at my shop call him that.

I agree with boarding out all but one Piledriver, as he comes in really useful, and in my experience for game one, Goblin Sharpshooter is the MVP, followed closely by Skirk Prospector and Siege-Gang Commander.

[bloodbrother]

am i the only one that felt the weakening of wasteland when zendikar fetchlands were printed?

[HelloHero]

am i the only one that felt the weakening of wasteland when zendikar fetchlands were printed?

How so?

[TheSleeper]

I believe bloodbrother means because the enemy fetches let people get an enemy basic as opposed to a dual-land when splashing.

Anyways yes you are the only one - Wastelands still regularly win games for me on their own merit.

[bloodbrother]

I believe bloodbrother means because the enemy fetches let people get an enemy basic as opposed to a dual-land when splashing.

Anyways yes you are the only one - Wastelands still regularly win games for me on their own merit.

which match ups? you mean to say wasteland on it's own merit wins you games without the help from rishadan port? i'm referring to the power level of wasteland as a card for mana screwing opponents. before the enemy fetchlands where printed, people would play flooded strand to fetch tropical island to get a green source in UG decks. the enemy fetchlands also gave 3 color decks a much stable mana base. people run lots of fetches + one of basics + 2-3 duals lately as opposed to full playsets of duals. without rishadan port back up, it's very seldom to win via mana screw, unless playing an opponent keeping a hand with 1-2 lands and never drawing a land after.

i have 2 decks, one having a playset of wastelands and another having a playset of wastelands and a playset of ports. i really can't feel wasteland's presence on the deck that didn't have the port.

[bloodbrother]

i need people's opinion on running a playset of wastelands in a goblin deck without rishadan port backup. thanks.

[Dino]

Always play goblins with 4 wastelands and 3-4 ports. Mana denial is a large part of goblin's game plan against most decks

[GoboLord]

Always play goblins with 4 wastelands and 3-4 ports. Mana denial is a large part of goblin's game plan against most decks

Absolutely!

Plus: The more double-R in the manacosts in the cards of your list, the less Rishadan port you should run (e.g. Kiki-Jiki, Chieftain, Warren Instigator)

[ScatmanX]

before the enemy fetchlands where printed, people would play flooded strand to fetch tropical island to get a green source in UG decks.

And now they play Flooded Strand, and search for what to get an Wasteland-proof Green source?

Wasteland isn't just for color screwing. It can delay an Engineered Plague 1 turn, or a horde of Vengevines, and win you the game. It can destroy Tabernacle, Maze, and other problematic lands (Mutavaults, Mishra...). It can Srew up 3-4 collor decks...
We have littery no drawback using them. Just play, and you should see how goood they are, even without Ports.

And try Captalizing next time.

[Tacosnape]

I think Wasteland is getting misunderstood. It's not just for mana denial, though it can do this, quite well and quite efficiently. It can also be a tempo boost, or a very hard to counter free removal card for one of the gajillion problematic lands in the format.

In Goblins, it can keep a deck off Plague, or a lethal combo, or even just Knights of the Reliquary or whatever, for a turn while Lackey is dropping out hordes of beaters or Vial is charging. In some matches, it's mediocre removal and a colorless land. In others, it's a time walk. In others, it's game ending.

It's one of the ten strongest cards in Legacy. And in truth, in any deck you design, you really need to have a good reason -not- to run Wasteland.

[bloodbrother]

ok maybe i'm just not having matchups where in wasteland alone is good against. thanks for the feedback guys.

[Lejay]

Wasteland is still good, but I noticed the small decrease of power too.

[Vandalize]

Damn, remade my R/B list because I was missing Lightning Bolt so much! Dropped 1 land because I was kind of flooded some games.

Lands [21]

5x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Badlands
3x Rishadan Port
2x Ancient Tomb

Core [26]

4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x AEther Vial
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [7]

3x Lightning Bolt
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Warren Weirding

Flexible Slots [6]

3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Stingscourger
1x TukTuk Scrapper (sometimes this card wants to be a second Chieftain, but it has saved me a lot too)

Sideboard [15]

1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Earwig Squad
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Perish
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Pyrokinesis

Ah, finally a list with 3 Lightning Bolts! Gempalms are powerful, but just not as good as the oldschool bolt :)

[Morkus]

It’s my first contribution to this forum. I read you a lot between June when I won a National Legacy Tournament Qualifier and October when I finished 16th at the final French National Legacy Tournament
And 65th/180 at the “last chance tournament” (4 win + 3 lose + drop)

I’m a poor player because I never play in competition context. I have no training, no test. Just few matches a year with no competitor friends. So, misplays are frequent. BUT, I love this game and my results show that goblin is a very good deck. I could win a lot of match against good players with very good decks without particular luck. I want to share some comments.

I made the 3 tournaments with mono red because I wanted to play 4x Wasteland, 4x Rishadan Port and avoid mana issues.

National qualifier 4-1-0
(I played 22 lands – no mana issue)
R1: [Supreme blue 2-0] Wasteland+port = 90% of the job (helped by REB at the 2nd)
R2: [mono white control 2-0] 1st= good start. 2nd = I unlock the game (Cho-Manno, Revolutionary + Pariah) with Anarchy
R3: [pikula 1-2] 1st= good start. 2nd/3rd = locked by double Plague in spite of a lot a Chieftain
(Chieftain or Boartusk Liege is equal facing Swords to Plowshares, Gatekeeper of Malakir)
R4: [enchantress 2-1]
R5 [(final) same enchantress than R4 2-1] Lost the 1st = locked by “Solitary Confinement” 2nd/3rd = I unlock with Anarchy

Last chance tournament (win 0 toss) 4-3-0
(I played 22 lands – a lot of mulligans)
R1: [Ant 0-2] t3-t4 (For him the more blocking card is Mindbreak Trap)
R2: [Zoo 0-2] 2x mull 5 and him 2x t2 Sylvan Library
R3: [Canadian Threshold 2-0] (REB his stifle on my Wasteland + Rishadan)
R4: [Merfolk 2-0] piledriver + pyro
R5: [CounterBalance 2-0] tinkerer+REB
R6: [SneakAttack 1-2] win the 3rd with double port to avoid SneakAttack
R7: [Vengevine] 0-2

National final 4-2-1
(I played 23 lands and that seemed the minimal)
R1: [UWr standstill 2-0] 2x fast double piledriver
R2: [WU standstill 2-0] . I unlocked the 2nd with Anarchy
R3: [(CounterBalance ) 2-1 (gameloss for me)]
R4: [Big Zoo 0-2 (finalist)]
R5: [Survival Ug 0-2 (champion)]
R6: [UW control 2-1] 2nd-3rd, He locked me with Moat+Humility. I unlocked the 3rd with Anarchy
R7: [Vengevine GW 1-1]

Below my decks (15th mountain = 61th card)
15x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Goblin Piledriver
2x Goblin Chieftain
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Skirk Prospector
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
1x Goblin Chieftain
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Anarchy
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Pyrokinesis

Main:
- Mana denial = Half of the power of the deck
- Kiki is not a win more for me. It replaces the 3rd SGC which it searches by copy of Matron or Ringleader.. It generates eternal chumpblocker… Big list of uses
- Prospector. I will never cut it. Finisher with SGC + instant mana source for Bolt, gempalm or REB + let sacrificing blocker on attack with Jitte.
- Lightning Bolt. Help against Zoo + without Warren Weirding, Tarmo is often small enough + for killing me in early turn, ANT was 2x down to 2PV and I wanted to test bolt.

Side:
- Anarchy. Win 5 matches / 12 victory (each time I was locked and that was my only solution)
A true pleasure to see the head of my opponent when I played it !!
- Pithing Needle. Great ! Save me 2x versus Elspeth + many matchups
- REB. I won ALL my matches against blue based decks. CounterTop + merfolk + supreme.
2x I REB a stifle on my Wasteland = good start or REB a FOW on early lackey or vial
- Tinkerer. The eater of SDTop. With an active tinkerer, 2x I activated tinkerer to top in response of fetchland. Either the top is destroyed or is shuffled in library. Tinkerer is also efficient in response of the tap capability.

Idea: Do you think that is possible to make a deck more control with tinkerer + TSH and Liquimetal Coating?
That seems a solution to enchantments. Plague, survival, moat, humility..