I've had a few discussions with people in my area (all of whom don't own Survivals, I'm the only one) and we were talking about the situation with Vengevine Survival. I'm not playing it in the community at the moment, as I know no one has boarded against it (but it's understandable, since I'm the only one). I see a ton of people online/in real life complaining about it, but no one wants to do anything about it. Everyone's complacent about taking action against it because they think the DCI is going to do something for them.
Vengevine Survival is a good deck because it does thing Survival used to do for lots of mana for little mana. Plain and simple. But, why are few people adapting their sideboards, and their lists in general to have a better matchup? Is it so hard to slide the grave-hate you took out when Reanimator left back in? Is it so hard to lose 4 slots of sideboard against another archetype to deal with a very prevalent archetype at the moment?
The most active thread on Survival is the one calling for it's banning, and a bunch of people complaining about the unstoppable power, with very few people like myself discussing and reassuring that it isn't broken, and that we should work together to deal with it.
I think we all need to take a look at the lists we're running (and losing with) against Vengevine, and see how the board or main or both can be tweaked to improve the matchup. Discuss in the deck's appropriate thread or in the "How to beat Survival" thread, but seriously, go out, test, and discuss. I've already done solid testing with the decks that I play and I know how I need to board to give me a better shot at a win. Will it always work? No. Do you sometimes lose because the opponent draws the nuts? It can happen even with a matchup you're heavily favoured to win.
My two cents.
-Matt
@ Rico Suave: The difference between Necropotence/Illusions/Donate and Survival/Vengevine is that Vengevine is great with or without Survival. Donate and Illusions of Grandeur are/were both terrible cards by themselves. As a two card combo without Necropotence, Illusions/Donate suffers from the same problems as all other two card combos made up of two independently bad cards.
The current question of banning ISN'T a clear cut case of one card being broken and the other card(s) channeling that bonkers into actually winning. This is a case where both cards are damn good on their own. That is something rare in the history of Magic.
It is totally legitimate to debate which card is more of a problem. Both sides of the argument have merit.
Speaking of faulty logic, comparing Necropotence in old 1.X to Survival in current legacy is quite a stretch. Necropotence was not "fine" for 5 years, it was broken the day it came out. It dominated Standard so hard they nicknamed the season it came out "Black Summer." The only reason it didn't rage for years was because of Stasis then later the printing of Force of Will. When it got to Extended Necro won the first Extended pro tour, Urza's sets came out and everyone played Academy decks that got banned, and Necro came 1 game away from winning the next year, it went in Trix which was the deck to beat for a long time, it went in Pebbles, the only reason Necro didn't get banned much earlier is because it took Wizards several years to ban everything from Urza's Block. It completely dominated Extended while it was legal except for the short time Memory Jar, Academy, and stuff like that was legal. So yeah, just another example of WoTC not knowing what they were doing back in the day. They should have banned it much earlier, it reigned almost nonstop 4 years.Originally Posted by Rico Suave
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I'm not sure how good you think Vengevine is without Survival, but it requires quite a bit more work than it already does to make hasty plants. One that is slower and much more vulnerable to GY hate. In comparison to Survival, well there is none. Vengevine still acts like a creature, you can still interact with it. Nothing that a Plow or six won't fix.
It's funny you should bring this up, considering Kai Budde won a Pro Tour with Illusions/Donate after Necropotence was banned.
You are entitled to think what you want, but don't be surprised if some day it dawns on you that Vengevine is a very mediocre card (much like Illusions/Donate).
Necro wasn't broken until a lightbulb went off in someone's head and revolutionized the way it was used. The same thing happened with Survival, though it happened only recently (and it's not as powerful a card as Necro is). I'm not going to argue the strength of Necro though. If you actually played during this period of time it would have been evident to you that what you're saying is false, but it's beside the point.
The point was to illustrate how a card which was previously a tame card can become more powerful because people use it differently. I could have cited the synergy of Burning Wish and LED in T1 as another example of this phenomenon. These are cards that were legal for a considerable period of time until one day people broke them and they were no longer fit to remain legal in that environment.
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Is there anyone on here actually calling for it or Venvgevine's banning? You guys seem to just be arguing over different stuff, but agreeing on the main point.
At first, I was upset that it was so powerful and wanted it gone. Then I decided to think and realized there are answers, and all was well.
-Matt
Not even a page ago, I saw a person suggest banning Basking Rootwalla.
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I had the pleasure of playing two Vengevine Survival decks today and I gotta say, while they are not unbeatable they are a little over the top.
The problem is not either card, but the combination of the two. Stopping one doesn't cut it and to combat Survival and Vengevine sucessfully a great number of hate cards is required,often too much to keep the rest of the deck strong.
The deck is borderline broken, but has only been around for a short time. While it is completely going nuts all over the globe a ban might not be neccesary (although I would like one). I does take much longer for a metagame to adapt than for a single deck to take over it, so the problem might solve itself in a month or two.
Rico:
I think LED is a good comparison. But for different reasons. What you said parrots what I heard from a lot of T1 players over the years. Even read an article on SCG about it 4 or 5 years ago. The thought runs something like this:
"Man, those old school T1 players were idiots. Playing bad things like Morphling and Lightning Bolt when they should've been playing with Workshop and Burning Wish. Those cards are so fundamentally broken!"
Ecept they weren't. It's not that LED was a junk rare and Burning Wish was Cunning Wish's poor cousin because people were too stupid to break them, it's because they couldn't be broken until the storm mechanic. Imagine if storm was part of the resolution instead of a trigger upon casting. LED would still be a junk rare and Burning. Wish would still be a vaguely unplayable limited tutor.
Until Mirrodin came out, Stax was a tier 2 deck at best, and that's being generous.
It's not a new way of using it that is propelling SotF forward, it's Vengevine, pure and simple. Is anyone HONESTLY going to tell me that they'd be scared of a Survival deck that used Rootwallas to put Nether Shadows and Bloodghasts into play??
The difference is that you can't ban en entire mechanic. So storm doesn't go, LED does. But Vengevine is 1 card, and it's not the mechanic that breaks it, it's the size. Leaving Survival in the format does little to limit design space. And of the two, Survival is more fun. It's a vaguely playable engine that has never dominated the format but always been at the fringes. Oh, it was overrepresented at the birth of the format, but the first couple of Worlds at Gen Con showed that it wasn't broken.
If they printed a card that broke the fuck out of Lifeline, would you call for it to be banned as an enabler? What about Recycle? Both of those cards could be overpowered if the right card was printed. But sometimes the enabler is more fair than the cards being abused with it.
Easily my favorite green card in the game. I think it makes Legacy as a whole a lot more interesting. It's not unbeatable/broken, just really friggen good!
Vengevine:
- so far it has only seen play in Survival decks.
Survival:
- Squee/Krovikan Horror/Genesis/Wonder/Anger were used for years in an abusive manner to keep the deck at Tier2
- Survival acted as a Tutor for solutions, threats and card advantage
- Iona gave the deck a huge push by cheating on Mana for the big Angel that stops the opponent from playing spells
- The printing of Vengevine (a good, but completely fair card in T2 and Extended) put the deck to Tier 1
- Necotic Ooze is a single black Mana to expensive to be really broken, but still gets played and ends game instantly.
Now compare:
Vengevine: only played in Survival decks, fair synergy with Wild Mongrel and Fauna Shaman.
Survival: unfair, 1-card-win combo that ends games instantly, cheats on Mana, abusive, Tutor
Now to my questions:
Assuming it is decided that a ban is nessecary because of this, what should Wzards ban?
What is more likely for the next sets:
Another card that makes Vengevine dangerous again should they ban Survival? Or another card that puts Survival over the Top again should they ban Vengevine?
Just finished to watch the SCG 5k Boston videos, pretty disgusted if you ask me, and to anyone saying that Survival is fair, please do not tell lies.
That card deserves to be banned and quickly. If we want to discuss about the potential brokeness of Legacy staple, then as of now it is a mile above everything else, LED and Top included.
It's just like a turn 2 drop that means victory if the other doesn't have the counter or manages to get it off the table. You can watch those videos and see how this happens on a regular basis each, and I say EACH game. This is not balanced anymore, the games consist either in dropping Survival on the table or (trying) to knock it off. In the mirrors, the first that sees it wins. I could not find an exception in all those vids.
There is also a game where a guy dazes, needles and firespout off vengevines; the other, with zero cards in hand, topdecks Nature's claim and a creature and wins on the spot. Basically it requires at least 2 mana, a creature in hand and Survival on the table to win in 2-3 turns.
I mean, you can play tightly, not doing a single mistake, countering, needling, gripping, and if the other topdecks that card you're dead on the spot. Seems pretty right, yes.
This is not funny anymore. You can bitch about Mystical tutor, the truth is that we're getting closer to something etremely similar and even more unbalanced. The format has become worse a lot since 1,5 years ago.
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Those who want Survival/Vengevine banned:
1. Refuse to adapt and won't let go of their petdecks that don't beat Vengevine Survival - What can I say?
2. Can't afford a decent deck - This is Legacy, go play Casual.
Tao made some good points. Survival decks have always been tier 2. And Vengevine has only been used so far in decks running Survival. But if you think for a second that banning Survival keeps vine from being broken, you need to spend a few minutes thinking about what happens when UG Madness swaps SotF out straight up for Intuition. It loses maybe half a turn on average, but that doesn't matter because a hand relying on SotF is balls slow to begin with.
GW would go away. You know, the slower version of the deck? UG wouldn't go anywhere. It would just get better since it's poor in the 'mirror' against GW.
But the bottom line is, if you can't deal with a deck that generally does nothing until turn 3, you're playing the wrong game. Go pick up Pokemon. There are a number of decks with positive vine MUs. Look at how well Rock style decks have been doing. New Horizons and TA perform well too. Or just retune your main to cope and quit thinking you can beat every deck by siding in 3 or 4 cards.
You are completely missing the point and replying with cheap answers as it's clear that you are a Survival player and you would not like to see your $300 Vengevines and Sotf get the banhammer.
I'll tell things clear: Legacy is not balanced anymore. Survival is clearly a lot above any other deck. It thrashes easily any form of aggro-control just letting resolve a Survival and getting it run for a turn. It has just become a "answer me now or you'll lose" card.
As Mystical tutor used to be. And it got banned. And I'm an avid Storm combo player and I think the ban was perfectly right.
It's too fast for Goblins and Merfolk. Too fast and resiliant for Countertop. Too recursive for Control. Too good for discard decks as basically you topdeck a Survival and you have won.
You can say "just adapt" as any times as you want, but you clearly can't fill your deck with shitty card just to fight Survival. And it would still be able to pull off some crazy combo or just skullfuck you in some old-fashioned way. You can put as much hate around Survival and it will still get you, maybe in the form of Fauna Shaman. You can pack gravehate and they will find a way to go around it. You can needle Survival only when your opponent is fully tapped out because he's going to take a solution in response. The same is true for Qasaling it, he gets a Witness and you're still at the beginning.
Just WATCH those videos, and you get the idea. It's shocking.
I repeat, i should be the one who's more happy to see so many Vengevines running around because I can easily trash them. What matters me is the variety of the format. You can still say that it is healthy, but when you stare at several top8s infested by a single CARD that basically makes several combos viable, you should start to make yourself some questions.
Survival is tutorable, it's cheap, it work instant speed and it's a tutor effect that is used several times. Does this remind you something?
Yes, it was the same story for Mystical tutor. As it was the piece that let multiples archetype run with consistency. Too much consistency, as it seems.
And as Mystical tutor would have allowed to take any instant or sorcery printed to make new combos viable, Survival will allow to take whichever creature to do the same unfair stuff. In a UGx shell, it also allows you to stay open to cast counterspell and, if they don't, you just pull your shitty Squees and Triskelions out of the deck and start doing CA or shenanigans. This brings to an inevitable superiority, be it in the late game or immediately with 4 idiotic green monsters coming out of the water.
It doesn't even take a lot of skill to win from a resolved Survival. As it wasn't difficult to cast Ad Nauseam and draw a bunch of cards after a Duress or a Chant.
If you could manage to put down your business for a second, would you still think that things are still balanced? I mean, a card that says "G, discard a card: Demonic tutor. Repeat.". And no, Vengevines without Survival are not worth building a deck around them. It's the tutor piece that makes them so dangerous, otherwise they're cool 4/3s that would combo in a suboptimal -or slower- way.
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UG Madness would go back to sucking ass without Survival. Its brokeness comes from being able to 'play' uncounterable creatures once SotF is in play. Intuition is infinitely slower than Survival and is just nowhere near as good. It's like comparing Personal Tutor to Mystical Tutor. Intuition on 3 Vengevines also gets hit a lot harder by GY hate. GY hate against Survival only solves half the problem or gives you a small tempo boost.
UG Survival is tough for GW because UG has disruption and Wonder.
What do you mean Survival decks don't do anything until turn 3? Most Survival decks are very disruptive and can keep playing threats until the coast is clear for a SotF to hit the table. I would say that if your opponent has SotF in hand, he's definitely "doing something" just by representing a threat that is lethal as soon as it resolves. If you're far behind on the board in terms of creatures and you untap with SotF on turn 3, you can recover from almost any terrible board state.
Lets take a look at the best case scenario with UG Madness:
T1 - Land + Noble Hierarch.
T2 - Land + Survival + discard Vengevine(1), get Vengevine(2).
T3 - Land + discard Vengevine(2), get Vengevine(3), discard Vengevine(3), get Vengevine(4)/Wonder, discard Vengevine(4)/Wonder, get a Basking Rootwalla, discard and cast Basking Rootwalla, get a Shield Sphere/Memnite and cast it, swing for 12/16
So yes, you don't do anything until turn 3, and you don't even kill your opponent until T4.
Last time I checked, there are plenty of decks that kill on T4 or even before that. Even goblins can kill you on T3.
All you have to do is deal with Survival/Graveyard. If you counter Survival or Extirpate Vengevines, the deck can only hope to topdeck another Survival or (if Vengevines were removed from the game) win with 3/3 Rootwalla's or X/X Mongrels. How's that unbeatable?
You can even argue that the deck will play around Extirpate, but how's that any good?
The same way that if a combo deck is dealt with, the combo player can only hope to draw enough relevant cards to get it going again.
Same goes for Dredge and Reanimator.
I don't see how it could be unbalanced.
Be careful how you use the concept of fairness to make your argument. Most decks have an "answer me now or you are fucked card", that or the cards act in synthesis to put you in the same situation. The deck has a good strategy that will usually require some sideboard space to combat, but there are plenty of decks that put Survival in its place. If you have a problem with Survival, you can always play something else. The deck is hyped and people are slow to adapt to the changing metagame. Whenever a good new deck concept enters the fray people are obviously unprepared for it and lack the proper tech to deal with that matchup because it hasn't been discovered yet. Besides, even if some decks don't have a solid answer for it, other decks will and those decks will get better. Much like in Economics, some people win and some people lose. The question is, do you want to win or do you want to lose? Ultimately, its your choice.
Further, its worth taking a closer look at the concept of the metagame. Usually there are a few decks that dominate the top tiers. Usually the top 3 decks eat each other, Zoo eating the control flavor of the week, control eating the TES, and TES eating the Zoo player. But now that order has flipped completely so everyone is freaking out. Now Zoo (aggro) players are having trouble with the Survival (control) players, and TES (combo) players are beating the Survival (control) players and the Zoo players. Now whose to say that Survival cannot switch the order this way, or even sit itself at the top of the metagame? Storm combo still keeps the deck in check while people learn how to fight it off with hate instead of speed. If we see a resurgence of storm combo, we will probably also see more Countertop (likely with Dreadnought/Stifle and Trinket Mage for Pithing Needle).. etc. The point is the metagame will shift, just give it some time. Do you remember when Ichorid first got big and everyone thought it was the shit? And then it dropped out of favor... and now its back again? And the same situation with Landstill? Shit changes!
All the time you spend bitching about it would be better spent finding an answer to the problem. And for the record, Pithing Needle shuts down Survival pretty well.
Also..
I'm glad that WotC doesn't use the banhammer by representative democracy or we'd have a shitty ass format. Every time a deck gets really good people feel it necessary to wave their pricks menacingly at the new kid on the block and threaten the banhammer. I say Survival is a drop in the bucket compared to what ANT and Reanimator did to the format not too long ago. Survival doesn't have a particularly fast clock and it has minimal disruption, and its creatures are comparatively weaker than most others in the format; however, it is very consistent and Vengevine makes it resilient as well. Consider its weaknesses though. Survival has to setup before it can go crazy and minimal protection makes it difficult for the Survival player to deal with strong early turn plays. Its no surprise that storm combo is so good against Survival. So make it a point to have a strong opening play that can put you ahead of the Survival player, play more sideboard hate, or play storm combo. Its that simple. Why do all the haters think the format has to remain static? Don't you like change? Don't you like having to adapt and overcome the challenge of a strong adversary? Or do you like the sweatless kicking the shit out of everyone you come across because I'm the Juggernaut bitch and I can't be stopped??! Seriously my brain hurts.
This.
I agree completely. Guys you can only play this game so well and you always have a bad matchup, namely the 50/50 mirror. Know your metagame and make some sacrifices so that you don't get beaten by what you expect to see the most of, and if that deck is Survival prepare for it. This is Magic Economics 101; stop sleeping in class.
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If you seriously think that Survival decks are doing nothing until turn 3, you should either play with more competent opponents or watch more videos. Turn 1 Noble Hierarch (which is a common thing in all versions of Survival) usually demands immediate answer and depending on the build, they also have Daze/Spell Pierce/FoW, StP and/or Thoughtseize, which allow them to succesfully resolve their engine.
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