I consider 4x Krosaan Grip, 4x Chalice of the Void, 3x Pithing Needle and 1x Tormod's Crypt/Bojuka Bog as fixed sb slots. This leaves me with 3 meta-slots which will usually be either 2x Oblivion Stone, 1x Smokestack or 2-3x Null Rod and 0-1x Smokestack/Oblivion Stone. Only 2 meta slots seems to narrow especially considering that at least 1 of my sb cards (Crucible) would be sided in almost by default therefor not actually beind dedicated to certain matchups.
By the way, Null Rod is really strong; hurting Countertop, Fast-artifact mana for combo, Crypt and Relic as well als destroying Affinity. Played against Affinity three times in my last tournaments and it wasn't even funny...for them ;-)
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
So I have been playtesting this deck a lot recently. I really have game 1 down pretty well, but post-SB is a different story. I find myself in situations where I have dredged a good portion of my deck, and Wasteland on my Academy Ruins + GY hate could force me to eventually mill myself even if I have the game controlled (especially if something like EE, Tabernacle, or Ghost Quarter are removed as well). How do I deal with this? Do I just need to beat in faster with Mishra's Factories? Barbarian Ring requires 30 cards to be dredged into the yard if I don't have Crucible out (I bring one in from SB) in order to deal 20 damage, and a lot of time I don't get it online until later in the game anyways. It is also troublesome that I board all my Manabonds out against decks like Madness Survival, simply because I have so much to bring in. I feel like it is the right call, since Extirpate + Grips makes Manabond a lot weaker, but that doesn't change the fact that I find myself praying for an uncountered Intuition or Exploration.
I guess my question is... How do people usually end up winnning post-SB games? Will opponents actually scoop game 2 or 3 if you are dominating the board (at a competitive event like a 5k) or do they usually make you play it out?
1. What sort of list are you playing? Flex slots and sideboard options really vary what can be done.Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
2. You don't have to win (typically), just not lose. If you won game 1, there's no need to press your luck by actively loaming and trying to win. Sitting behind Tabernacle and a couple Mazes is usually good enough.
3. Try bringing in Smokestack against some decks, it's pretty strong. Also, 2x Factory gets there pretty fast when you've cleared their board.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
This decks greatest weakness is going to time and you are almost required to win game 1 in able to win the match because very often people will not concede to you especially if they won game 1 but make sure they aren't playing slowly on purpose and call a judge over to monitor the match otherwise your opponent could sit there for 5 minutes straight just looking at 3 cards in his or her hand and just not pass the turn. At big events like SCG 5ks some people will do this and you have to watch for this because quite often people won't concede even if you have a lock on them with smokestack or even mindslaver.
Post board games your goal is to not lose if you won g1 because quite often you go to time with this deck. Although if you can win without risking the game I suggest you win otherwise there will be a ring of people around your game looking on and everyone in the room will know that you're playing lands.dec
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
This is the list that I am taking to the 5k in a week:
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Intuition
4 Life From the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring
SB
1 Smokestack
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Boseiju
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Karakas
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Tormod’s Crypt
I keep going back and forth between Ensnaring Bridge and Oblivion Stone and the numbers of each that I should play. Boseiju is nice for resolving a couple Loams and the Smokestack against Countertop and heavy control.
Last edited by Patrunkenphat7; 10-26-2010 at 04:28 PM.
If you are really having problems winning matches without going to time I suggest you do one of two things.
1) Playtest the crap out of the deck to realize what situations you can put yourself in to win game 1 and go to time in game 2.
2) You can try the list of landstone that I am running (see page 36) because it allows you to win games out of no where and gives you more ways to win around hate cards rather than relying on weaker interactions like loam + barb ring.
Your deck definitely has a faster win-con, but I don't know about straying away from the lands theme, as I feel like dredges are going to be significantly worse. Your deck has some major positives going for it, but it also seems weaker against quite a few strategies. I do like it though.
I think considerations about stalling game one in order to not finish game two are flawed. What will happen, if you loose g1? Or if your opponent wins g2, not giving you time to play and win g3? I think the best way to play this deck is to play as quickly as possible. You really have to be quick and force your opponents not to stall.
I think it is really situational... sometimes you are forced to stall for a while, and by stall I mean slowly ghost quarter all their lands so you can wipe their board or EE for a bunch of turns or maze and mana denial until you can begin to gain a position to be aggressive. It's not really 'stalling', like intentionally doing nothing in the direction of winning, it's just that a lot of times the deck puts you in a situation where it takes a while to kill them. Sometimes game 1 will legitimately take 40 minutes to win, but other times you can easily crush their manabase, get rid of some creatures, and beat in with factories quickly; it depends.
This past sunday tournament was like an episode of the twilight zone.
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Port
4 Maze
3 Tolaria West
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Mox Diamond
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Loam
4 Intution
SB--
4 Dark Confidant
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
1 Smokestack
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Chalice of the Void
First round was an 0-2 loss to Solidarity. Dude that came in cold after not playing legacy for about five years. the randomness of the format can be so damn frustrating at times.
Second round Dragon Stompy. Seriously, a parade of terrible, terrible matchups for me. Game 1, I had the strongest possible start (mana bond, mox diamond, zuran orb, loam, rishadan port amongst the lands) and was confidant until his turn 2 play of Moon made his deck obvious. I had my basic forest out and mox diamond, so i had 3 sources of color but I was short a second blue to transmute to EE. Dredges had killed 2 other mox diamonds so my chances of drawing the fourth were pretty slim. Still, drawing off the top was the best I could do, as even gaining 6 life a turn through loam/zuran isn't enough vs sloggers and double striking dragons. However, instead of getting the fourth mox diamond I needed, I draw ensnaring bridge off the top and lock the board down. We draw-go for a while, he accumulates 8 stompy creatures on his side and I get up to 25-30 lands, including academy ruins, chasm, multiple mazes and tabernacle. All the while, he keeps asking me If I have an out. I just smile and nod until i draw ee. I put it on 3, bomb his moon at his eot then put the ee back on top. Put bridge back on top of ee on my upkeep and re play it. Turn after that I get ee back and start beating him with Creeper. He scoops it up.
Game 2: I get a seven with mox, grip and smokestack-- the best seven you could ever hope to ask for in this matchup! His turn 1 play is Mountain. I make a port and a mox on my turn and port him. He makes a chrome mox, ancient tomb, magus. My turn, I drop a land and grip his chrome mox. He plays a land, and is 1 mana short of casting dragons and such, so his only play is to swing with magus. My turn, i drop smokestack. His turn, he still can't draw and land and that's pretty much the game. I mean, it goes on for a while--he beats me to 10 with the magus but I basically stack him out of the game, use tolarias to get more mox diamonds out and stay ahead of the curve then get loam online and transmute for Creeper to beat him dead.
So, 2-0 win over dragon stompy. You'd think that it's your day, right?
Hardly. After pulling it out against an abysmal 10-15% matchup like Dragon Stompy, I lose 0-2 to the very favorable Merfolk match. I guess that was acceptable as it was largely my fault. Game 1 I did not know my opponent's deck and kept one of the worst possible hands against vial aggro (triple port, exploration, no tutor for loam). I think (don't remember entirely) that I could have played around his first spell pierce with port, but I didn't, and it slowed me down a lot. I didn't get loam and Port/Tabernacle up until his board was crowded.
Game 2 I kept a extremely greedy seven with confidant, needle, two intutions, and only one land that didn't come into play tapped--should have thrown it back, especially since I was on the play. I kept like a dumbass in both of these games. My first turn was fetch bayou, needle on vial--his turn 1 was waste bayou, something I did not expect because aggro players generally reserve their wastelands for pushing through damage. Either way, it pushed me behind to where I was at 5 life and had choice but to fall back on chasm against his board of 3 merfolk, 3 mutavault.
I put a second needle on mutavault. It's had to say if this was a play error or not--I thought that putting needle on wasteland would have been a suboptimal play because it would push my strategy through Chasm--and maintaining chasm long term is not profitable because of Force. The long term is to dig out with multiple mazes and needle on mutavault supported that line of play. But of course, the out he drew wasn't force or pierce, it was wasteland. This loss was pretty frustrating.
Round 3 vs TES. Dude mulls to five or six on Game 1. I have some ports online. he goes for Empty the Warrens on turn 4 or so. I take 8 then intuition for tabernacle, loam, tar pit. GG.
Game 2: My opening hand had exploration, mox diamond, chalice, wasteland, loam, some other lands. That's a solid hand, the only thing TES can do to beat that is T1 duress on chalice or T1 drop a couple LED's/lotus petals. He didn't have that--he had to mull to 4. His deck simply did not like him. My eighth card is confidant. i crush his mana base and beat with bob.
So, 2-0 Dragon Stompy, now 2-0 TES. How did I luck out against these abysmal matchups but lose to Merfolk? How could it not be my day?
My round five loss/draw to 4 color CB pretty much summed it up. Game 1 was incredibly frustrating. I keep a hand with manabond, some fetches, a tolaria west and a tranquil thicket. I get manabond up then transmute for Boseiju, my ace in the hole. He gets CB lock up and uses it to counter some extra explorations I get down the line. As the game proceeds, he makes two goyfs, I draw 3 mazes. He cracks like six consecutive fetches looking for jace and I wait the whole game for loam. By the time Jace is at 13 loyalty, I've looked at 30 cards in my deck and not seen a single intution or loam. He didn't fateseal a single loam or intuition, either. Stuff I did see: miser Crypt, miser Karakas, miser Urborg, two mox diamonds, miser Zuran Orb... SERIOUSLY< SO FUCKING FRUSTRATING.
Game 2. I keep a strong hand with port, mox, confidant, Oracle of Mul Daya, exploration, lands. He forces turn 1 Confidant then forces exploration. I get a needle on his top. Turn 4 Oracle lands, gets some decent to relevant lands out. I try to cast smokestack, he has counterspell. I get the bomb lock up and blow goyf, get a second needle on jace and start beating him with oracle. By the time he gets swords on oracle and tar-pit, he's at 4 life. I try to recur smokestack, he sends smokestack away with clique. I get a third needle out on relic then start loaming aggressively and quartering his white sources. Theres about 5 minutes left in the round when i'm in the position to recur confidants and beat for game. I scoop it up and give him the win because if we draw then neither of us had a chance of making prize.
I pass on round 6 to play EDH.
Yea, sure, but as you say that's playing the deck's strategy, not stalling. Sure, if they don't concede to Loam, Exploration, Waste, Ghost Quarter and a stalled board, that's their fault.
@ Antonius: That report is quite hilarious - at least for one not directly involved ^^. Great luck and bad beats so close together.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...554#post498554
1st place with BUG lands.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Congrats!!!
I'm trying with some success this list with wurmcoil engine and realms uncharted MD:
// Lands
3 [EVG] Tranquil Thicket
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [RAV] Forest (3)
2 [U] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [M10] Gargoyle Castle
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [GP] Stomping Ground
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool
1 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [R] Underground Sea
// Creatures
1 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [EX] Manabond
4 [US] Exploration
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [ROE] Realms Uncharted
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [EVE] Flame Jab
Thoughts??
I think i would play a single gifts ungiven before I played a realms uncharted. At least that can get Loam.
Yeah...i wanted to try RU instead 1 loam. It's not a definite inclusion...what about my list in general???
I really don't like Mishra's Factory as much as I used to. It's better against Goblins (kinda) and Dredge, but beyond that it's barely necessary, in my opinion. I never missed having it at that tournament.
I've put this deck on the shelf for a while though. Ooze Survival is just far too poor to attempt to play through.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Main
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mindslaver
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tolaria West
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urza’s Factory
Side
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
I decided to play Lands at a lotus tournament and went a disappointing 3-1-2. Then, I played in a small local legacy tournament with lands, with the change of +1 needle -1 crypt. Needle is helpful against survival and jace, whereas crypt is good against graveyard decks (dredge, reanimater), where this deck is probably favored, especially with the maindeck bridge. The Urza’s Factory replacing the mishra’s factory has been very good against most decks. Although mishra’s factory is a good blocker against nimble mongoose, and goblins, those decks both play wastelands and removal, and mongoose is hardly played anymore. The other anti-creature lands help against the other aggressive decks or large creatures.
Lotus Tournament: 3-1-2
Round 1: BUG Landstill with cunning wish.
Game 1, I get loam extirpated, my O. Stone hit by wish+stifle, and artifacts hit by ravenous trap and lose to jace.
Game 2 I have ghost quarter lock.
Game 3, he plays turn 4 jace, turn 5 leyline, I try to EE for 4, but gets stifled, so I krosan grip his leyline and with exploration + crucible I waste all his lands. He still has the Jace that I can’t attack, and eventually ultimates me. But a turn earlier, I loamed 7 lands to my hand, so I am able to no lose to jace’s ultimate. I had an Urza’s Factory in play and was making tokens right after he jace’s me, but time was called with him at low life, no lands, and no other permanents in play I would have been able to kill him before decking myself, but he wouldn’t scoop to me.
Draw
Round 2: Enchantress
Game 1, O stone + academy ruins, then mindslaver lock.
Game 2, Ghost Quarter lock with ports, then mindslaver lock.
Easy match, he was a below-average player and should have been playing a blood moon main and a better sideboard. Enchantress is probably more 50-50 or worse.
Win
Round 3: Natural Order Bant aggro
Game 1, he plays all basics and gets turn 3 progenitus
Game 2, Mana Denial, then he scoops with no lands in play
Game 3, I board out my urza’s factory, which was a mistake and he doesn’t scoop when time was called and he has no permanents in play.
Draw
Round 4: Reanimater
Game 1: Turn 2 inkwell kills me fast
Game 2: Wastelock + ports and he scoops
Game 3: Ancient Grudge on his needle and crypt gets his targets. Ensnaring Bridge locks the game up
Win
Round 5: Mono Blue Control
Game 1: Turn 1 relic, followed by back to basics then jace
Game 2: 3 Ports slowed him down, but he kept a hand with 5 lands and 2 back to basics. I was able to Grip one of them, but lose to the other back to basics and then jace.
Lose
Round 6: White Stax
Game 1: He gets crucible, wasteland, stax, chalice @2. He ramps stax to 2 which was a mistake. He gets me to sac all my permanents, and he is left with a crucible + wasteland. I get up to 3 mana with double mox and EE his crucible, and then take control of the game.
Game 2: he goes 2x mox + land + crucible. I go 2x mox, manabond, Loam. He plays trinisphere turn 2. I o stone everything and keep him off mana.
Win
Other Tournament
Round 1: Merfolk
Game 1: I keep a hand with tabernacle, exploration and a couple mazes, because I though he was playing goblins. I stall the ground and stabilize at 4 when I finally get loam going.
Game 2: He wastes my tabernacle and goes to crypt it along with 2 loams. I cycle thicket and academy ruins and urza’s factory get dredged. I have no way to win the game without him scooping. He drops 5 dudes and kills me.
Game 3: He doesn’t get a crypt and I overwhelm him with ports and mazes until I get slaver lock.
Win
Round 2: The Epic Storm
Game 1: I have zuran orb in play with wastelock (no exploration or manabond though). He goes to storm off and messes up with ill-gotten gains. Had he burning wished correctly, I probably would have lost to a large empty the warrens
Game 2: He mulls to 5, and I play mox, gamble for chalice and have wastelock+loam+manabond
Win
Round 3: Canadian Thresh
Game 1: Ghost quarter lock, followed by mindslaver
Game 2: ghost quarter lock, he concedes with no lands in play when I start making tokens.
Win
Overall, I plan on playing this deck at the next legacy tournament and trying to get better at it while improving the main/side. I want to add another win condition, with only 2 (urza’s and academy ruins) the chances of losing them to graveyard removal is high. I was thinking either a barbarian ring, or meloku + stronghold. I don’t think I want anther urza’s, because they do nothing early on in the game and you only need to have 1 in play to win. Thoughts?
Creeping Tarpit would be good. It's unblockable and swings for 3 so it's good at keeping jace in check. Otherwise your other two options are nice. I ran a list earlier in the year at Starcity St. Louis w/ maindeck meloku + stronghold to very good success.
Academy Ruins is also a win-con: it gives you inevitability in the long game.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Yeah but i like them as chumpblocker / wind cond... leaving just 1 - 2 lands + mindslaver to beat your opo is just poor to me.
@Dino: Gargoyle castle > Urza's factoy, in my opinion.
I like O-stone...wasn't it too slow?
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