[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Ubiquitous Druid]

1 Goblin Pyromancer

Me: Cast Goblin Pyromancer. Resolve?
Him: Yeah, sure.
Him: Ability on the stack, Stifle on Goblin Pyromancer's first ability.
Me: ...

True Story

And that was before stifle was being used everywhere. Needless to say the moral of the story is: Don't run dudes that kill your team.

[P-AiR]

Trust me, I did not and do not intend on siding in pyromancer just for the beats and combat surprise/trick with vial.

I play it to gain an edge against other goblin players ( 2 others in the tournament ) and Empty the Warrens. I didn't get a chance to draw it for this tournament against my 2 rounds/matches against Belcher. I fended off the 8-10 goblin tokens pretty easily.

I wished I had a chance to play test against another goblin deck with the pyromancer.


On another note, skirk prospector was amazing.. what made me a believer was:
T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Mogg War Marshal - sac Marshal for mana and also gain a token from the sac and play Goblin Lackey with the one floater.
When the burn player bolted my lackey, I sac'd it in response and casted my own bolt while I was tapped out.

[GoboLord]

Me: Cast Goblin Pyromancer. Resolve?
Him: Yeah, sure.
Him: Ability on the stack, Stifle on Goblin Pyromancer's first ability.
Me: ...

True Story

And that was before stifle was being used everywhere. Needless to say the moral of the story is: Don't run dudes that kill your team.

Classic: Sideboard FAIL!

Boarding Pyromancer against an deck with Stifle is like boarding Nature's Claim to destroy Standstill.
No offense intended, but in the case you described it's not the card's but the player's fault.

Pyromancer is boarded against
* Goblins
* Belcher/TES (Empty the Warrens)
* Slow control (Enchantress, Lands, Thopter Combo, Landstill, Staxx)

[raindrainxi]

Just a query:
I don't get Boartusk on mono-red
It's just a more expensive Chieftain without the haste so what gives? Or am I missing something?

[Pltinum]

Just a query:
I don't get Boartusk on mono-red
It's just a more expensive Chieftain without the haste so what gives? Or am I missing something?

first of all it's a 3/4 that boosts your other goblins. That's it.
Against engineered plague and it isnt so easily removed as a chieftain.. out of pyroclasm and firespout range.

That's how I see it.

[GoboLord]

first of all it's a 3/4 that boosts your other goblins. That's it.
Against engineered plague and it isnt so easily removed as a chieftain.. out of pyroclasm and firespout range.

That's how I see it.

Basicly it doesn't die to double E-Plague (unlike Chieftain and King).
Since monored doesn't have access to enchantment removal (well...Ratchet Bomb...) it's the most effective and reliable answer to Plagues.

[Mantis]

Make no illusion; even with Liege you still very likely lose to double Plague, it's not like your opponent is playing 56 lands, 4 Engineerd Plague. The reason Liege is good, is that he beats Pyroclasm and helps you survive Firespout and also survives Bolt and most of Zoo's creatures.

[GoboLord]

The reason Liege is good, is that he beats Pyroclasm and helps you survive Firespout and also survives Bolt and most of Zoo's creatures.

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Liege beats neither Firespout nor Pyroclasm.
(Lets assume we have Liege in play)
When you opponent has Pyroclasm, only your x/2-Goblins will survive (Warchief, Ringleader, Piledriver, Siege-Gang).
Firespout will clean your entire board (except for Liege) unless you have at least 2 other Lords.

Pyroclasm is hardly found in any legacy deck/sideboard today because Firespout is simply much more effective.
Therefore Liege's application is limited to fighting Plague (when it comes to the topic of boardsweepers).

[raindrainxi]

Pyroclasm is hardly found in any legacy deck/sideboard today because Firespout is simply much more effective.
Therefore Liege's application is limited to fighting Plague (when it comes to the topic of boardsweepers).

With that being said, what would be one of our solutions for boardsweepers? i.e. Firespout etc.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

Classic: Sideboard FAIL!

Boarding Pyromancer against an deck with Stifle is like boarding Nature's Claim to destroy Standstill.
No offense intended, but in the case you described it's not the card's but the player's fault.

Pyromancer is boarded against
* Goblins
* Belcher/TES (Empty the Warrens)
* Slow control (Enchantress, Lands, Thopter Combo, Landstill, Staxx)

The game was not a competetive Legacy game. It was game 1 and had no clue what was all in the opponent's deck. Pyromancer was a 1-of in a deck that I was testing.

[Mantis]

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Liege beats neither Firespout nor Pyroclasm.
(Lets assume we have Liege in play)
When you opponent has Pyroclasm, only your x/2-Goblins will survive (Warchief, Ringleader, Piledriver, Siege-Gang).
Firespout will clean your entire board (except for Liege) unless you have at least 2 other Lords.

Pyroclasm is hardly found in any legacy deck/sideboard today because Firespout is simply much more effective.
Therefore Liege's application is limited to fighting Plague (when it comes to the topic of boardsweepers).

I am not sure why I bother to even respond as your tone suggest I can never convince you of my stance anyway, but I can't resist the urge and perhaps other forum lingers will find my contribution useful.

Boartusk Liege helps a great deal against Firespout, he allows you to commit less resources and still pose a threat to your opponents lifetotal. The effect is simple, you will lose less resources to Firespout and you have more resources left after Spout and as a bonus he buffs them too. My conclusion: the presence of Boartusk Liege allows Goblins to have a better chance of winning the game after a Firespout.

Also, I never said Liege wasn't good against a single Plague, however Liege doesn't beat double Plague, so you might as well play Chieftain if the goal of your slot was to beat Plague. The ultimate reason to play Liege over Chieftain is that Liege helps against Firespout, not that it beats double Plague.

[Caspid]

With that being said, what would be one of our solutions for boardsweepers? i.e. Firespout etc.

same as with other wrath effects, I'm guessing. Not overextending, holding Ringleaders, Lightning Crafter, mana denial, and killing them quickly.

[GoboLord]

The game was not a competetive Legacy game. It was game 1 and had no clue what was all in the opponent's deck. Pyromancer was a 1-of in a deck that I was testing.

..still you give advice to not run Pyromancer in a Goblin deck, while we are discussing competitive legacy decklists.

With that being said, what would be one of our solutions for boardsweepers? i.e. Firespout etc.

Ringleader, Matron and Siege-Gang Commander. Keep one of those in your hand if you fear any boardsweeper.

I am not sure why I bother to even respond as your tone suggest I can never convince you of my stance anyway, but I can't resist the urge and perhaps other forum lingers will find my contribution useful.

Boartusk Liege helps a great deal against Firespout, he allows you to commit less resources and still pose a threat to your opponents lifetotal. The effect is simple, you will lose less resources to Firespout and you have more resources left after Spout. As a bonus he also buffs your creatures after Firespout. The conclusion: the presence of Boartusk Liege buffs Goblins win percentage against Firespout.

Also, I never said Liege wasn't good against a single Plague, however Liege doesn't beat double Plague, so you might as well play Chieftain if the goal of your slot was to beat Plague. The ultimate reason to play Liege over Chieftain is that Liege helps against Firespout, not that it beats double Plague.

You can convice me...but only with arguments and not with subjective opinions.

With two Plagues and no Goblins in play your Chieftain won't help, where Boartusk Liege does!
And again: After Firespout you almost always lose all your Goblins except for Boartusl Liege. even with 2 Lords (e.g. Liege + Chieftain) in play it will kill your hole army. To fight Firespout, Boartusk Liege is no better Goblin Goon and Boggart Mob. It's simply the fact that the creature itself will survive - it doesn't protect any other Goblin.
Therefore: Liege helps against Plague not against Firespout.

[Mantis]

The reason why I don't think Liege beats double Plague most of the time is that most decks that are packing Plague also play a shitton of removal. Even if they don't play removal, such as UB Merfolk, you lose all of your 1/1 Goblins and your 2/2 and 1/2's will become pretty pisspoor since you end up with a team of 1/1's. Sure, there will be games where you will in fact beat that double Plague with your Liege, but generally speaking a Boartusk Liege is not an effective solution to double Plague.

On the matter of Firespout, you completely ignored all of my arguments. Again, the reason why Liege is good against Firespout is that you have to commit less Goblins to the board because Liege pumps them all. Then post Spout, Liege also pumps the Goblins you kept in your hand, so amassing a scary force is easier.

Also, would you not be happy with Goblin Goon or Boggart Mob on board against Firespout? I definately would, however both cards are terrible in almost every situation that does not involve Plague or Firespout while Liege is still decent.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

..still you give advice to not run Pyromancer in a Goblin deck, while we are discussing competitive legacy decklists.

My point is, as an object lesson, don't run narrow cards with tremendous drawbacks that can potentially wreck your whole gameplan. I learned early that as a card, Pyromancer should not be included in a competitve list.

I find Pyrokinesis does just as good, if not a better job of dealing with:

* Goblins
* Belcher/TES (Empty the Warrens)
* Slow control (Enchantress, Lands, Thopter Combo, Landstill, Staxx)

And, you definitely don't want pyromancer vs Landstill. That matchup is already good and you are walking into the exact stifle territory mentioned.

[Nidd]

And, you definitely don't want pyromancer vs Landstill. That matchup is already good and you are walking into the exact stifle territory mentioned.

Landstill doesn't play Stifle.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

Landstill doesn't play Stifle.

I've played against numerous Landstill decks that do.

[GoboLord]

The reason why I don't think Liege beats double Plague most of the time is that most decks that are packing Plague also play a shitton of removal. Even if they don't play removal, such as UB Merfolk, you lose all of your 1/1 Goblins and your 2/2 and 1/2's will become pretty pisspoor since you end up with a team of 1/1's. Sure, there will be games where you will in fact beat that double Plague with your Liege, but generally speaking a Boartusk Liege is not an effective solution to double Plague.

On the matter of Firespout, you completely ignored all of my arguments. Again, the reason why Liege is good against Firespout is that you have to commit less Goblins to the board because Liege pumps them all. Then post Spout, Liege also pumps the Goblins you kept in your hand, so amassing a scary force is easier.

Also, would you not be happy with Goblin Goon or Boggart Mob on board against Firespout? I definately would, however both cards are terrible in almost every situation that does not involve Plague or Firespout while Liege is still decent.

Hmm, now I understand you better but I'm still not convinced completely.. guess we simply don't share oppinions on this topic.

[guedax]

my sideboard
4 leyline of the void
4 perish
4 thorn of amethyst
2 extirpate
1 tuktuk scrapper

good SB with good solutions against dredge, zoo and survival
thorn will be good against combo but very good against control with the manadenial plan

i dont understand why do you run calice of the void
perhaps better than thorn against combo but it sucks at one with vial, lackey, bolt, extirpate
so 13 cards post SB!!!!!

[GoboLord]

my sideboard
4 leyline of the void
4 perish
4 thorn of amethyst
2 extirpate
1 tuktuk scrapper

good SB with good solutions against dredge, zoo and survival
thorn will be good against combo but very good against control with the manadenial plan

i dont understand why do you run calice of the void
perhaps better than thorn against combo but it sucks at one with vial, lackey, bolt, extirpate
so 13 cards post SB!!!!!

(1)
I don't find Thorn very good against control - not even worth boarding. You don't want to side out creatures for non-Goblins when you are up against control.

(2)
Just play Chalice @ 0 and your problems are solved. Plus, the good thing about Chalice is, that you can choose whether to put it @0 or @1 (big advantage over Thorn). Therefore you can make sure that it does not fuck up with Vial/Lackey/Bolt/Extirpate. You can also design your sideboard/maindeck in a way that Chalice is never among the same 60 cards with Bolt and Extirpate (Lackey and Vial are mostly unavoidable).