Scion of the Ur-Dragon

[TheArchitect]

A friend of mine recently added Steel Hellkite and Malfegor to his scion deck and I must say, there is usually nothing I dread more that seeing him fetch one of those 2.

[Zlatzman]

I'm running Steel Hellkite as well, but I don't really see the value in Malfegor. If fetched with Scion he's just a 6/6 flyer and if I do get him into play somehow discarding my entire hand for sweeping the table doesn't seem like the best play. It could be used as part of a finisher along with Karrthus and Dragonstorm I guess, but it still feels like a too risky move for me.

Personally I've removed Nicol Bolas for Thunder Dragon, due to Bolas being too unpopular in my playgroup.

[sunshine]

I like Malfegor as he can further break the symmetry of things like Living Death, Eureka, Bidding, and even Show and Tell. You can usually just tuck him away in your gy at the end up someone's turn with Scion's ability and if you need to clear the board he's there. I think the deck (as I have gone with it) can really only benefit from a more diversified toolbox. Malffegor offers a pretty unique and possibly devastating effect.

Personally I've removed Nicol Bolas for Thunder Dragon, due to Bolas being too unpopular in my playgroup.

I'm running both at present - I'm curious what your current lineup of dragons looks like? Given that last comment I'm assuming your list linked to in the OP is not up to date.

Also, I've seen some lists running Skithiryx but can't seem to convince myself it's worth a slot. Being able to kill with poison counters is nice I guess, but you've always got general damage if someone gains lots of life. His other upshot is allowing you to give Scion haste and still morph into something else.

[Bane of the Living]

This is one of the first EDH decks we built. I think you should play more mana accel like rampant growth style and less talisman style. Most of the games this deck lost were due to getting the Ravnica lands blown up or early artifact removal.

Artifact removal is becoming much more prevailant in EDH.

[sunshine]

While I agree that artifact destruction can be a problem - I don't like being stuck without a green source if I'm leaning on Rampant Growth effects for acceleration. Armillary Sphere seems like a reasonable option though - which may mean I should stick another basic somewhere.

Also, this version of Scion runs quite well on a relatively small number of mana sources. Unlike the combo oriented builds you spend a lot of time casting draw/discard effects helping you find your lands and dump creatures into the yard for recursion.

I had a note in the OP before, but one of the major reasons I went with the 5c lands + Signets/Talismans instead of Duals/Fetches/Growths is that I'm not a huge fan of shuffle effects in this format and my general does that enough on his own.

[NetherGamer]

A cool card I like for Scion decks is Conspiracy. Swing, what no blocks, okay phage the untouchable. targeting scion, how about emrakul, the aeons torn :) That one is reusable too!

[Zlatzman]

@sunshine: Yeah, I haven't updated the list in my thread in quite a while. As of recently I've just jammed loads of dragons and dragon-related cards into the deck. Sadly there are a few too many good dragons, so there isn't enough room for them all.

Current dragons:
Ancient Hellkite
Bladewing the Risen
Bogardan Hellkite
Broodmate Dragon
Dragon Broodmother
Dragon Tyrant
Flameblast Dragon
Intet, the Dreamer
Hellkite Charger
Hellkite Overlord
Keiga, the Tide Star
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Mordant Dragon
Numot, the Devastator
Oros, the Avenger
Quicksilver Dragon
Rith, the Awakener
Ryusei, the Falling Star
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Teneb, the Harvester
Thunder Dragon
Two-Headed Dragon
Yosei, the Morning Star

Dragon-related cards:
Dragonskull Summit
Bladewing's Thrall
Dragonspeaker Shaman
Zirilan of the Claw
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Crucible of Fire
Dragonstorm
Slave of Bolas

I also run some cards that are generally just cool: Legacy Weapon, Lurking Predators, Maelstrom Nexus and Mirari's Wake.

[sunshine]

Conspiracy is an interesting idea. I don't think I'd run Phage (unlike Emrakul she isn't Show & Tell/Eureka/Quicksilver Amulet etc. -able), but being able to morph Scion into Emrakul is a pretty solid trick.

I've toyed around with the idea of running Dragonspeaker Shaman, I feel like he often wouldn't last long enough for me to cast more than 1 or 2 Dragons at reatail, and paying 4-5 for the dragon that happens to be in my hand isn't as exciting as paying 2-4 for any of the dragons in my yard (Shaman would likely have to replace a reanimation sell). Might be worth a try though, and if I ever play matches with sideboarding he'd likely get a slot for the case where no one was running mass removal colors.

Maelstrom Nexus may just be cool, but it's really cool. I think I'll give it a try. It's too bad you can't get a cascade the turn you play Nexus since it will likely be carrying a big bullseye.

[Zlatzman]

Dragonspeaker Shaman:
He can be nice for getting out early dragons, but I don't think he's worth it based on power level. Most playgroups have enough mass removal for him to be gone before you've taken advantage of him. My main reason for running him is that he has the word "Dragon" in his text-box.

[sunshine]

Bah, Emrakul is getting the boot. I'm more sad because now I'm not really sure if Show and Tell deserves a spot anymore. I think Eureka can stay on coolness alone but SnT loses a lot of stock.

I don't think there's anything that can really replace Emrakul. Looks like:

- Some instant speed reanimation spells
+ Some more efficient sorcery speed ones

- Emrakul
+ some dragon?

- Show and Tell?
+ Survival?

[Zlatzman]

So, new set means new Dragon. This time: Hellkite Igniter.

5/5, Flying, Haste, 1R: +X/+0 where X is equal to the number of Artifacts you Control.


The lack of trample probably means he will not see play though, as our current finishers (Hellkite Overlord, Dragon Tyrant) will outperform it in most situations.

[bokwinkle]

honestly, this deck promotes an environment where you play one of 2 decks - countermagic to stop your general, or land-destruction to keep you from playing anything. That's the primary problem with this general - it's way too easy to win unexpectedly in one turn, and decks like that ruin the play environment. Generally, if I see someone pull a 5-color deck then I'm either racing to a crucible/wasteland/stripmine lock down or I'm playing azami and just countering everything they play - usually putting their general on the bottom of their library with hinder or spin - 2 decks I reserve for people that dont' understand that this format is about having fun....not search for land, search for land, play my general, win. This format - more than any other - is about interaction....anyone can put together decks than win in one turn...and we can all sit around a table and watch someone go off...or we can actually play magic - it depends on your playgroup, but generally noone wants to just sit there and watch you jerk off scion.

[sunshine]

@bokwinkle

EDIT: My initial post came off as a little rude so I thought I would filter it down a bit (apologies to bokwinkle).

In the abstract I don't see anything wrong with combo in EDH. Some people are of the opinion that combo isn't in the spirit of EDH and therefore shouldn't be played, and that's fine, though I feel that banning of any strategy (which is explicitly banned by the format rules) is something that individual playgroups will have to come to on their own. If combo decks are indeed a general problem it's up to the rules committee to recognize that, and it is certainly outside the scope of this thread. The particular list in here is not combo oriented but that's not to say there is anything wrong with lists that are - I chose to go in this direction because frankly I think it's more powerful in a multiplayer setting, and I think you get to play cards that are more fun.

re: Hellkite Igniter

I'm not sold on it. I'm hesitant to run dragons that don't do more than attack for damage (Tyrant being the exception since it's *a lot* of damage).

For some reason I always thought Bazaar of Gaghdad was banned in this format... now I need to track down one of those .

[bokwinkle]

Please bear with me...that wasn't so much directed at you, as much as directed a several other posters that were suggesting the deck go in that direction I shouldn't have use the word "This" when I was talking abou "this deck", as I meant it much broader, and not specifically your deck. I did notice that you powered out your creatures (general or otherwise) with artifacts...not searched for land :). Actually, I was going to commend you on the fact that you weren't even running survival in your original list...but I got on my rant and forgot...lol. The truth is that you could easilly up the power level on your deck a bit and you still wouldn't be too broken as long as you limit your dragon choices. I assure you that a turn 4 Nico - while it's not an Auto-win - is just as bad as a turn 4 dragon tyrant or something equally broken...which is, I'm sure, why you've decided to remove it. I would suggest going with something like dragon mage or something like that which is cool, devestating, completely fun, and (eventually) lethal...but doesn't create and auto-win scenario - and it can blend nicely into a reanimation theme...which is pretty easy to execute with Scion.

Unfortunately, the desire to break this general (and the format) is so common that I always react to this dragon the same way. This general's potential upsets the balance of the format - along with a couple of others. The generals that tutor are pretty much all busted - and this one is in the top 3 or 4 because he also gives access to all 5 colors. I really wish that the color requirement was a hinderance instead of a help, but the reality is that fetches, filters, shock-lands, and true-duals make 5-color down right easy to play...and having access to all of the black tutors, plus survival, Plus Primeval Titan, plus tooth and nail, plus the visions tutors...etc. makes breaking the format incredibly easy. The problem is that none of these cards on their own merit a banning - and most of them don't even need to be watched (seriously, do we really need to worry about mystical tutor breaking the format? lol) but being able to run all of them in conjuction is just aweful...and when you add to that a general that tutors....well, it shouldn't be hard to see why I (or anyone else) would be annoyed when they see someone pull this out accross from them. Tutoring is good for the format, but being able to tutor as will utterly decimates the format...which is exactly what this general is capable of.

Oh, and you're welccome for my opinion....lol.

[sunshine]

Updated list in the OP, managed to get my hands on a couple gems - Bazaar and Strategic Planning. Also, cut a number of creatures in order to fit in more draw/discard as well as a few more mana sources - still pretty light in that department though.

[Zach Tartell]

My mono red Hivis of the Scale deck is going to absolutely destroy your 5c dragons.

[sunshine]

Haha, that's some savage tech... I guess.