I made an audible to big zoo over my more traditional build for SCG Nashville, and I have to say that while what you're saying seems good on paper, it just didn't play out for me in real games. I ultimately went 5-3 in the swiss, and my losses (all 1-2) were to two Vengevival decks, and Adam Prosak with his U/W Counterbalance. In both of my Vengevine matches, the games I won were the ones that played out basically like traditional zoo - Nacatl into Pridemage into removal/burn/death of opponent. The ones I lost were the ones that you would think would exemplify the thinking you are espousing here. I had more than one game where I had Hierarch into t2 Knight or 2-mana threat plus a mana open for removal, but just got blown out t3 or t4 by Vengevines mixed with removal from my opponent. The reality is that yes, sure, you can get a Knight out fast, but honestly a Knight isn't generally too large by the time they're hitting the yard with their 'Vines. Yes, it blocks better than a Kird Ape in the midgame, but a T2 Knight came down for me usually as a 3/3. Maybe a 4/4 in a few games.Big Zoo is better in this meta.
With the traditional version you can never win against survival, because you have the 2/3 at cc 1 and they got the 4/3 at cc 0.
In big zoo you can play more stp/pte, cause you need less creatures in play to win, they are bigger than traditional.
However, even this misses the point. Most of the Big Zoo variants I've seen (and the one I played) had even >less< room for extra Swords/Path than traditional zoo does. They actually run more creatures than little zoo to fit in those extra copies of KotR, and the space in the deck is even further eaten away by the larger landbase (22/23 instead of 21 in several builds), and the inclusion of planeswalkers (I ran two Elspeth). Saying the deck has more room for white removal is only really true if you're giving it spots that the deck needs for its burn suite.
That is not to say that the deck is bad, or that it is not strong against several archetypes. In fact, my 1-2 vs Prosak would have easily been a 0-2 had I not had the top decked Elspeth to crack through his CB lock game 2. But to say that it is a correct meta call because of its performance against Survival with Vengevine is just not backed up by my (albeit limited) experience. Your mileage may vary.
For reference, my decklist was:
Creatures:
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary
Planeswalkers:
2x Elspeth, Knight-errant
Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Path to Exile
2x Sylvan Library
Land:
3x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
3x Windswept Heaht
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
Sideboard:
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
(Looking back at it I'd have chosen a different board, probably with Canonist and/or Peacekeeper, but still)
Last edited by Bokonon; 11-17-2010 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Adding decklist
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-The books of Bokonon
(Cat's Cradle, Kurt Vonnegut)
I'm playing zoo since 2007, and it's my pet deck.
I tryed all versions, italian zoo, naya boss, tribal zoo, in function of what the metagame required...in 2007 and 2008 I won a lot of tournaments with tribal zoo, then in 2009 and 2010 with Italian zoo I made a lot of top8, won a 126 players GP Trial and day2 in Madrid, undefeated in day1; after that I turned into naya boss for a few months in this year, but with vengevine I saw that it wasn't enough...Thinking about returning on tribal wasn't so bad, but in my metagame were a lot of stifle and wastelands, so the choice wasn't so lucky, I made several 5-2 but never top8ed, so I follow the way of Naya Boss and top8ed 2 times. Then in july I changed trying Big zoo, starting with 5-1-1 9th for rating in a 96 players tournament, followed by the results I wrote few post ago.
My friends also turned in big zoo, tested in 3 different version: the first like mine, then one with bloodbraid+thoctar and one with bloodbraid+ blood moon and boom/burst. The boom/burst version is the worst (4 tournaments 5-2 4-3 4-3 4-1-2), then the bloodbraid+thoctar (3 tournaments 1st beating me in semifinals, 1st and 4th but on only 55 players), then mine (6 tournaments 2 1st on 67 and 35 players, 2 top8 in 97 and 106 players, 1 top4 in 100 players and 1 5-1-1 9th in 96 players).
Those tests started with the survivals dominating the metagame, so I think it's the correct way of fighting in a tournament with zoo.
I think to beat survival we have to kill all the mana dorks without waiting for vengevines and destroy duals with wastes. The 1st is truly hard, but if you know what are you doing you can win playing well. The 2nd and the 3rd, with about 6/7 SB cards you can fight quite more relaxed.
That's not a deck for dummies, for sure, it's a deck that punish mistakes and wrong choices, but with a bit of time wasted in testing, you'll see how this deck could work, and you will loose very few matches...
Ah, and for sure, you have to limit the burn suite at only lightning bolts or like I tried 5 burn spells, cause this is not a deck that burns, infact you have more problems with enchantress than traditional one. I saw versions with 4 lightning bolts, 4 chain lightning and 4 path to exile, but they seemed weaker to me and I never tried them.
Regarding your last point, what do you play in lieu of a 1cc removal suite? I mean, is the deck geared towards an elvish swarm type game plan, or is it that given your metagame removal isn't as good as X, Y, and/or Z?
I'm just curious, your claims and results to match are sort of contrary to what others have put up and experienced so maybe you know something
Goblins good MU? Im myself an experienced Goblin player, never lost to Zoo.Originally Posted by CorpT
We just have to keep playing our Mogg War Marshall and chump so we don't take any damage from any creature, bolt lavamancers/nacatls, focus on killing elspeth and then win in the lategame with card advantage.
But idk, that's just my personal experience from tournaments.
In my experience, Goblins is a good matchup for the Zoo player, but it's definately not a no-brainer. You have to keep pressure with your bigger creatures (Goyf), keep one or serveral smaller creature at home as blockers to prevent yourself from suddenly being overwhelmed, and use your burn to tactically blast the Lords away. But over here in the Netherlands Goblin players don't play Lightning Bolt, and if they're playing Mogg War Marshalls they're in the sideboards.
Wrong,
There have been a few MWM around lately, they've taken spots in the mainboard lately.
Lightning bolt is a rare one for the dutch goblin lists, but maybe after gobbolord's succes, it might see more play.
I'm not sure if I want to play lightning bolt, but mwm's have been decent.
I am one of those dutch goblin players that has played MWM in the main from the start. I wouldnt want to do without them
In my experience MWM is indeed able to hold Zoo of but only if the goblin player draws into card advantage. If a Ringleader doesnt hit its usually game over for Goblins. But MWM has definitely improved the Zoo matchup for goblins. I never played Bolts so maybe they push the matchup in goblins favour?
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Well, I think that as I red few time ago, zoo is like napoleon, it uses artillery cover to push through its infantry.
Starting with this, I think that better then artillery are removals in this meta, so cards like stp and pte. If you have to breakthrough for your creatures, you have to remove your opponent's, and cards like chain lightning are too weak. The burn suite, at this point, it's only good for boros, with lynx, goblin guides, lightning bolts, chain lightning, helix, pop, fireblasts and so on...In big zoo you have to win by attacking, not by burning. So, your suite is still at 1cc, but not burn, only removals and bolts.
Yesterday I organized a little tournament, so I didn't play, but my 3 friends with big zoo were quite undefeated in swiss rounds one 4-1-1 and the others both 4-0-2, then 2 top8 and 1 top4.
against what of decks are ypu playing than :O?
the meta is various:
- zoo
- goblin
- dreadstill
- madness
- survival vengevine
- survival bant
- enchantress
- merfolks
- jace landeed
- canadian ********
Last tournament I played against
GW aggro, Kor Life deck, Mystic faeris, 2 urban dreadstill, big zoo, eldrazi artifact, pikula - 6-1 top8
The one before I played against
2 pro-bant, elf combo, goblin, faeries - 5-0 undefeated
The other one I played agianst
Rock, dreadstill, UG madness, white stacks, lightning angel control (pw control), 2 survival vengevine, merfolk, big zoo - 5-0-2 top4
And at the beginning of this deck I played against
2 faeries urg, enchantress, merfolk, ats, jace landeed, ug madness - 5-1-1 9th
hi guys i'm start playing with 5cc zoo and it looks prety fun
comment
Mainboard:
Creatures :
4 Dark Confidant
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
Others :
4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mox Diamond
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tribal Flames
2 vindicate
Lands :
2 Bayou
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
60 Cards
Acima de nós só DEUS...
Couple of things for me that raise an alarm.
12 Creatures with no counter. Really all they have to do is save removal for your goyf and your gona have a hard time.
20 lands with 4 mox diamond might not be enough to support it.
Also this just looks to slow to function. Wasteland destroys you.
Made day 2 in GP columbus
At first glance I'd make it somewhat like this:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Knight of the Reliquary
Others :
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
I think I would choose to forget about basics and just go for redundancy of colors
Lands (22):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
So you can 'always' go:
T1 Taiga (Lavamancer, Nacatl)
T2 Tundra or Scrubland (Quasali Pridemage, Dark Confidant, Goyf)
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
I agree with Jakolhops. Also: there's a good chance that EE and Deed will destroy your own creatures as well. Deed + Mox Diamond also really don't combine. And given the fact that you're land count is really low and dies to Wasteland, I foresee a lot of mana- and colorscrews. Have you actually tested this already?
You can't put the word "Zoo" without Wild Nacatl.
sorry all, wrong list my bad
the list XD :
4 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Vindicate
4 Tribal Flames
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
Last edited by Catitas; 11-30-2010 at 07:50 AM.
Acima de nós só DEUS...
how does zoo hold against survival? is dark confidant really reccomended? is a blue splash possible for counter support? and has anyone tested ranger of eos?
Ranger is really really good in the mirrior and against other agro matches, but against faster archtypes i usually side it out.
Made day 2 in GP columbus
You're getting into a whole new deck if you want to play B/U in Zoo. The merrits of which boil down to personal choice. Five color agro is vunlerable to all the Wastelands out there, and cold to Blood Moon effects. Test it a whole bunch before investing
And Zoo can handle survival. Extra StP in the sideboard for the Vengevines, or Necrotic Ooze, will go a long way. Just try to destroy whatever they lead with, or run it into a counter to grow your Goyf. It's not a helpless match up but with a good draw and lots of practice one can get there
So instead of going to 4 you go to 8 with 3 Vengevines on the board? Sounds great. If you kill a Necrotic Ooze with an StP, Bolt or Path, you're playing against a terrible Survival player.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
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