[Deck] The Rock

[ForlornEgoist]

The biggest issue I have with Cobra is that he isn't a threat himself. All he's good for is ramping INTO threats. And the problem with that is any threats we'd need to ramp into would also require extra acceleration since we couldn't rely soley on the Cobra to help us get there. So adding Cobra would require us to completely revamp the deck at which point it would become a jank Type 2 wannabe rather than a Competitive Rock build.

You also need to think about what we can even cut to fit the Cobra itself in, let alone stuff to ramp into. I myself had a joyous time trying to fit in 2-3 Tombstalker's (Yes, I run Stalker with Bob in addition to a bunch of 3cmc and no life gain, leave me alone :P).

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

Don't get me wrong, Tombstalker is the absolute nuts in Rock. Problem being is when you're playing Knight and Tarmogoyf, you're getting a bunch of dis-synergy at that point. I'm less concerned over blind revealing Tombstalkers than I am making my Goyfs and Knights useless. I think if you're running Stalker, you can't run Knight, or at least you can't run him as a threat.

I'm glad this thread is up to this many pages so quickly. Huzzah!

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

Yeah, perhaps your right.

I haven't had much time to test the addition. I've been transitioning my black deck so much these past few months. It started out as MBA which I just loved, then once I added Bob I had to switch over to B/W because I needed the StP/Vindicate, then I splashed Green for Goyf because what deck doesn't splash him, then I inevitably went over to Horizons, so it's been a rough time for my deck (Don't worry Phyrexian Negator, one day I shall use you again!). What I may end up doing is running Vampire Nighthawk rather than Stalker. Yes, it's another 3 cmc, but it also helps offset the life-loss from Bob which I like, and I'm not too big a fan of the 12 creature base (for reference my B/W build before I transitioned to Horizon's was running 19-21 :O).

Forlorn Egoist

[f|i[p]]

The thing about that Junk list is that, if I were actually going to run those... I would rather have mox Diamond in the lotus cobras spot..It can really accelerate yur threats and make use of those 1cc discard early on..

@ tombstalkers

Im scared to run those... I already have an even and a weird game against zoo and other fast decks , I don't want to worsen it by flipping a tombstalker.. Its a house however given that I didn't run 4 confidants..

[SpikeyMikey]

Ah. Was driving around delivering pizzas, didn't really have access to Sun Titan text. Yeah, permanents 3 or less, that shoots that one right in the foot. Our best spells are instants and sorceries.

As far as what you're accelerating into with Lotus Cobra, it doesn't necessarily have to be a big threat. It could be as simple as being able to Vindicate and drop KotR in the same turn. We've got a wicked high curve for Legacy; almost entirely 2 and 3 drops. We don't have sometihng like CB that can be used to answer multiple threats in a turn. We're a 1 spell a turn deck and that's working for us, but maybe being a 2 spell a turn deck would be beneficial.

[AggroSteve]

hmm i think i will try quasali in my list, since now i have seen that the a list similar to the one i have been thinking about did place very well

@ spikey mikey: if survival would be banned i could see doran coming back in our deck, simply because he is good in goblin and affinity matchup, basically shrinking their biggest offensive power (piledriver, and cranial plating)

[Rainbow Maker]

so. i decided to try a more loam oriented list because control is a nightmare. The mana base is horrid and needs lots a work. Besides that it's posting pretty decent results in the few games i've played. The main list is kind of iffy, but here it is.

4 bob
3 knight of the reliquary
4 goyf
2 witness

2 cabal therapy
4 thoughtseize
2 extirpate
3 vindicate
3 top
4 swords
2 deeds
3 loam

4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 stronghold
1 bog
1 maze
x other lands

The one thing though is i think this list would be better without white maybe. as you would have a less iffy manabase and you would only loose knight sword and vindicate.

[SpikeyMikey]

so. i decided to try a more loam oriented list because control is a nightmare. The mana base is horrid and needs lots a work. Besides that it's posting pretty decent results in the few games i've played. The main list is kind of iffy, but here it is.

4 bob
3 knight of the reliquary
4 goyf
2 witness

2 cabal therapy
4 thoughtseize
2 extirpate
3 vindicate
3 top
4 swords
2 deeds
3 loam

4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 stronghold
1 bog
1 maze
x other lands

The one thing though is i think this list would be better without white maybe. as you would have a less iffy manabase and you would only loose knight sword and vindicate.

You're packing 8 (!) lands that don't tap for color plus Maze of Ith. You don't have Hymn so you don't need turn 2 BB, but you need GG for Witness. I've found that I generally need white early more than green, making fetching a difficult proposition. In short, the mana looks atrocious. Landstill is going to be packing Wastes. It just seems weak against the archetype you're hoping to beat. If you're really gunning for slow control, I would say go 3-4 Extirpate and put the Hymns back in. The way to beat control is to remove their threats, as they're adept at dealing with creatures. Elspeth is also good against them as UGB has nothing to deal with a resolved Elspeth and U/W has a single O-Ring or their own Elspeth. Maybe something like my listing with Hymns where I have Pridemage and cut Deed for a 4th Hymn and a 4th Vindicate or a second Elspeth.

Also, I find that Cold-Eyed Selkie really shines for me against Landstill. It gives me extra Bobs, allowing me to go 1-for-1 with them on cards and still come up ahead. Their removal is really stretched against Bob, KotR and Selkie, and unless they can drop and protect Humility, any one of those will be their ass. Save Wastelands for important targets like Academy Ruins and (in G2) Factory. Shut down their CA and threats and just grind through the counters and removal.

[Rainbow Maker]

I'm just trying this list out. I really don't know where i want to go with this list. hymn is good. i tested it, i just never really liked how you're supposed to be playing aggro in most match ups yet you waste one of the most important turns. hymn is good, but it usually doesn't seem all that stellar. most times i would rather have a resolved duress. Yes hymn is CA and it CAN destroy someones manabase for the game. But the times that happens... are rare. Also when i always had to open up with bayou + scrubland so t3 i could dropa pridemage. It would be ok if i was using diamonds

Really the only decks i'm hoping to beat are control. MOST aggro, tribal and such are very easy. I actually tried a selkie mainboarded when i was running hierarch and pridemage. I really liked it. In my experience the best thing to do early on of course is extirpate fow. In my testing with elspeth... i hated her. She always seemed like more a a win more/loose more card. It is a ridiculous card, i just didn't like it in this deck as a 1 of.

Their main CA is just planeswalkers and standstill, i guess some lists do run teferi's response too. most lists of rock run elspeth as a 1 of(at most) so you shouldn't rely on just your elspeth to save the day. The reason why we have a crap match up against control is mainly just because of our curve.

Oh ya... It's the fear is a pain. That is just tons of fun without extirpate.

another edit. The reason why i chose therapy over hymn in that list was a t1 discard with a t2 therapy then activate a factory and sac it was such a stupid amazing play.

[sdematt]

To beat Landstill, you have to disrupt them early with hand disruption and land destruction. If they can't get to 3+ mana, they're not going anywhere. They only have so many free counters (4), and they never draw them all at the same time or in succession. The trick to beating Landstill is not playing the control game; they've got you beat at playing control. You need to play the aggro game, which a times they can have trouble stopping. T1 Duress T2 Hymn T3 Vindicate is devastating, as is any combination of discard + threat early on, that's why Goblins are a huge trouble (no hand disruption, but just too many things to counter so early on).

-Matt

[Linkin Pac]

Hello Sourcers,

Despite cashing out my Goyfs, Tropical Islands and Forces from my UGW Natural Order Countertop deck, I have decided to keep my Natural Orders since I feel that NO/Progenitus is still one of the easiest and most broken Legacy combos. It really is close to the green Tinker of Legacy, and is great because it simply wins games against the vast amounts of rogue decks that appear at some of my local tournaments. Thus, while blue's counters and Brainstorm are probably the best supplements to the NO/Progenitus combo, I think that black would come in a close second with the combo, since its discard can pre-emptively get rid of any hate.

I apologize if this deck is not Rock-like enough, since it's main purpose is to pull off the Natural Order and win. It does make use of some of green's most effective utility creatures and black's powerful one mana discard disruption. I saw that NO/Prog is mentioned near the start of the thread, but is not really mentioned much afterward. The list that I've started:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
4 Wall of Roots
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wickerborough Elder
1 Progenitus
1 Hellkite Overlord

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order
3 Smother

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou

Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Smother
1 Phantom Nishoba

Please let me know what you think of this list, and what you would change if you were to play it. I am considering swapping Ohran Vipers for the Kitchen Finks, even though the Finks are probably more useful in a wider variety of situations. The four tops seem like a necessity for a deck with very little card draw. The Smothers can probably be adjusted to whatever, but I prefer them since there are several aggro decks in my meta.

And lastly, does this deck have much of a chance against Merfolk? Because I am almost certain that there will be Merfolk at my next tourney. The idea is to push through the counters with the large amounts of discard to get one Natural Order to resolve, using the 3 mana guys as chump blockers in the meantime. But as always, beating the fish is easier said than done. Not to mention, the deck makes use of non-basics, so relying on them could be a liability.

[sdematt]

If you blow shit up and play BGW, or some combination thereof, you're playing Rock. No worries my friend, welcome to the thread!

I'm not sure if 4 Eternal Witness are good enough here. Recursion is good, don't get me wrong, but I think 2 would be sufficient. I agree with 4 Birds, Blossoms, and Finks. Wickerborough as a one-of seems out of place, and I think you ca probably play 3 Natural Orders. You may also want to go into white for Swords, Knight of the Reliquary (allows you to fetch Dryad Arbor) and other sideboard slots. Many of your "4-of's" aren't actually needed as a 4-of. Multiple Tops usually are bad, for example. All in all, I'm loving your list . I'm thinking along the lines of:

1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Kitchen Finks

21

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Top
3 Natural Order
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

18

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold

22

-Matt

[MrShine]

I played NO Rock for a while; it is amazingly positioned in an aggro metagame; walls + finks + recursion just slows them down incredibly

Wall of Roots is actually MVP in this deck - it blocks like a champ, accelerates you like crazy (remember you can use it on their turn if you need to), and is a critter for NO at the same time. It also works wonders at pulling your spells out of Daze range; alot of players will (surprisingly) forget that he makes mana. They definitely go in over Wall of Blossoms. The 5 toughness can also be relevant vs fast goyfs from Zoo and the like.

I wouldn't worry too much about opposing counter magic if I were you; Thoughtseize + Therapy can solve almost every problem preemtively, and there is very little chance you NO is going to get countered by CB. Favourite play: T1 TS, T2 birds, Therapy; at this point you can sac it if you need to get rid of something else but they should be hand-raped by then. T3 NO and life is great :)

Finks is great in this deck too; they just clog shit up on the ground and generally make life pretty hard for aggro, not to mention they are great fodder for Therapy. They can also beat well in a pinch. I agree that Witness numbers could be shaved down, 2 is enough IMO, as are 3 Tops

Consider (ie PLEASE DO) running white for Swords; it is just the best removal in legacy and the fetches are already on-colour as it is

Good luck!

[Dzra]

I like the idea of Cold-Eyed Selkie a lot in my board as a possible replacement for Choke. It serves a very different purpose obviously, but it seems like I would be able to use it against a lot more decks. Choke punishes a deck for using a lot of Islands, but Selkie punishes a deck for running any Islands at all.

[JCLe]

If you blow shit up and play BGW, or some combination thereof, you're playing Rock. No worries my friend, welcome to the thread!

I'm not sure if 4 Eternal Witness are good enough here. Recursion is good, don't get me wrong, but I think 2 would be sufficient. I agree with 4 Birds, Blossoms, and Finks. Wickerborough as a one-of seems out of place, and I think you ca probably play 3 Natural Orders. You may also want to go into white for Swords, Knight of the Reliquary (allows you to fetch Dryad Arbor) and other sideboard slots. Many of your "4-of's" aren't actually needed as a 4-of. Multiple Tops usually are bad, for example. All in all, I'm loving your list . I'm thinking along the lines of:

1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Kitchen Finks

21

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Top
3 Natural Order
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

18

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold

22

-Matt

I wouldn't play eternal witness over say, grim discovery here, the downside would be that you don't run wastelands but getting back a fetch or a wastelanded land of your own is extremely good, for (1)B.

Sure, grim doesn't give you a body per say, but it makes 2 landers with a fetch keepable, and gets a land that you threw to mox diamond back too, etc. as well as making the finks plan vs aggro a lot better.

[ZeinVoncy]

@ JCLe
Grim Discovery just is not that good here. For recurring lands, either use Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam.
As to recurring a dude, we already run Volrath's Stronghold. Which is tutorable through Knight of the Reliquary.
If that wasn't enough, Eternal Witness gives you option of any card in your graveyard. Grim Discovery would just end up taking the spot of something else we would want more then to recur something.
That's just my opinion though.

*Edit
In consideration for a S/B option, what does everyone think about having 2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I mean, it'd shut a ton of cards down, including Ooze combo, correct? Thoughts?

[sdematt]

I totally get where you're coming from. In many decks, Grim Discovery is very good (I play it in Dark Depths). Here, I'm using Eternal Witness to bring back Swords, Natural Orders, and possibly the odd creature or two. Here, it's also another body to sacrifice to Natural Order, so I don't want to cut down my numbers too badly. Not saying cutting two E.Wit will ruin any plans of pulling off Natural Order, just I like to improve my chances.

Also, question: If you Cabal Therapy yourself to get Progenitus out of your hand, do you have to reveal your hand to your opponent, or just to yourself?

-Matt

[brianw712]

Also, question: If you Cabal Therapy yourself to get Progenitus out of your hand, do you have to reveal your hand to your opponent, or just to yourself?

To your opponent. Otherwise, there would be no way for the opponent to know if you discarded all copies of Progenitus or not.

[Rainbow Maker]

so my list looks like

About the manabase i'm having some of the lands besides these
3 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
3 marsh flats
3 verdant catacombs (I'm working on getting 2 heaths)
2 scrublands
1 bayou
2 plains
2 swamp
2 forest
(initially my thought is to cut a plains for a wasteland. If i can get one)

4 thoughtseize
2 extirpate
3 tops
4 swords

4 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
2 pridemage
1 jitt

4 vindicate
4 knights
2 Doran(likely will be cut. Maybe Witness or perhaps a jitte and another wasteland.

Yes, Targeted discard becomes public information.

[sdematt]

I thought it did. I remember this happening with a match against Dredge when he targeted himself and didn't show me his hand. I wasn't really paying attention enough to care anyways, and only thought of it after, and this brought it back up again. Good to know.

You have knights listed twice on there, I think you mean 4 Goyf 4 Knight. Doran is still a beast a 5/5, so don't discount him. I think two is the max on him, though. Right now I'm trying a 1/1 Doran/Witness split.

-Matt