[DTB] Vial Goblins

[antonbystedt]

To the Lackey or Vial question:
If i have a Bolt in my hand, i would go for Lackey. Otherwise i would almost always go for Vial against an unknown deck.

[GoboLord]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

I thought about the banning of Survival of the Fittest. I don't want to continue this endless "Should Survival be banned?" discussion here. What I find more interesting is to think one step further: We already worked out strategies that work quite well against Vengevival, but what if they really ban it?

How would the metagame change? Which decks will become more popular? And (the most important thing) how does this effect us? What are possible changes in MD and SB? I want to hear your oppinions on that =)

[Nidd]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

I thought about the banning of Survival of the Fittest. I don't want to continue this endless "Should Survival be banned?" discussion here. What I find more interesting is to think one step further: We already worked out strategies that work quite well against Vengevival, but what if they really ban it?

How would the metagame change? Which decks will become more popular? And (the most important thing) how does this effect us? What are possible changes in MD and SB? I want to hear your oppinions on that =)

Control suddenly becomes better again while UBG Landstill might lose some of it's power.
CounterTop resurging makes Merfolk better than before, which in turn means we see a favorable MU more often.
Zoo has some problems with Vines, I think, so they will see play more often again after the ban - a MU we don't like.

That's everything I can see happening atm, the format should be a better place for Goblins afterwards - if Control still is a good MU.

[lotriderm]

I guess to sum up, it is safe to say that BOTH Vial and Lackey are reasonable opening plays. At a higher level, playing either has its advantages and disadvantages, but the player has to be the judge of that and decide which is the best play.

As a more GENERAL rule (for beginners), it seems to be safe to say that Lackey is the play to go for first since Vial is the safer card to have and Lackey (aggressively) is the stronger card to have its effects resovle. This general rule is also how I began playing Goblins and is good for people who are less experienced with the deck.

To simplify it even more, if Lackey connects, what are you cheating in? Unless that goblin card is going to be explosive (ie. Siege-Gang or Warchief), I would most likely be playing Vial first.

[Vandalize]

Humm, the fall of Vengevines will make the splashing goblin decklists (especially R/B) more common, probably. I'll stick with my mono-red list and my MD won't change a single card. Skirk Shooter synergy is great against every match I can remember.

Although, my sideboard would change a little bit, I'd drop one Pyrokinesis and replace the LotV with Tormod's Crypt (which can be played as a three of). I'd add some artifact hate too, since SoM added a real power to artifact based decks (not only affinity). I've seem some decklists using and abusing of Metalworker, and they reached a good level of board control (something like a brown staxx).

My MD should still look like this:

Lands:
14x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

Core:
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal:
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Lightning Bolt

Flexible Slots:
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Skirk Prospector

And my sideboard like this:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Anarchy
2x Shattering Spree
1x TukTuk Scrapper

I'll make a few tests to see wether should I keep the Crypts. My meta runs a lot of Affinity, Merfolk, Storm; Some Dredge and CounterTops and a little of every other decklists.

[jrw1985]

I was planning on playing in a monthly tourny today. I was pretty excited for it. Then Mother Nature dumped 18 inches of snow on Minneapolis. Stupid Minnesota.

[jrw1985]

Hey there my fellow Goblin Warchiefs,

I thought about the banning of Survival of the Fittest. I don't want to continue this endless "Should Survival be banned?" discussion here. What I find more interesting is to think one step further: We already worked out strategies that work quite well against Vengevival, but what if they really ban it?

How would the metagame change? Which decks will become more popular? And (the most important thing) how does this effect us? What are possible changes in MD and SB? I want to hear your oppinions on that =)

Merfolk will come back in a big way, which is good. So will CounterTop. Also good. And discard heavy Rock decks will be less appealing. Also good for us.

Wouldn't it be cool if they just banned Rootwalla? That's really what gives the deck its explosiveness, and the explosiveness is what makes it powerful. If you read this article you'll see an interesting point - http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1280 - that Thirst for Knowledge was banned in Vintage because it enabled the Tezzerat decks to dominate the format. Well Rootwalla is really the enabler to both Survival and Vengevine. Without a creature that can be discarded and played for free the Survival decks are still free to fill their graveyards with Vines, but they then have to play fair in activating them. That would seem to make the most sense. Vines couldn't go off unless they had 2 creatures in hand. Then the deck would actually be susceptible to mana denial. And if the deck needed to hold onto more creatures it wouldn't be able to cast turn 1 Noble Hierachs and BoPs for mana fixing and acceleration so readily. Just a thought.

[GoboLord]

And what would change in our MD/SB?
Right now I feel like there is no room for STingscourger and Warren Weirding.

Having a creature in MD that is only able to bounce your opponent's creature seems bad against Survival.
Warren Weirding also doesn't hit properly, cause when facing Vengevival they always have other stuff to sac (like Rootwalla and Shield Sphere).
Of course I am only considering Vengevival decks here, but they are dominating the format and I therefore don't want to pack removal that's bad against them.

btw.

Then the deck would actually be susceptible to mana denial.

It already is IS very susceptible to manadenial (in this case manadenial should also take the form of removal @ Hierarchs BoPs)

[Mantis]

Merfolk will come back in a big way, which is good. So will CounterTop. Also good. And discard heavy Rock decks will be less appealing. Also good for us.

Wouldn't it be cool if they just banned Rootwalla? That's really what gives the deck its explosiveness, and the explosiveness is what makes it powerful. If you read this article you'll see an interesting point - http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1280 - that Thirst for Knowledge was banned in Vintage because it enabled the Tezzerat decks to dominate the format. Well Rootwalla is really the enabler to both Survival and Vengevine. Without a creature that can be discarded and played for free the Survival decks are still free to fill their graveyards with Vines, but they then have to play fair in activating them. That would seem to make the most sense. Vines couldn't go off unless they had 2 creatures in hand. Then the deck would actually be susceptible to mana denial. And if the deck needed to hold onto more creatures it wouldn't be able to cast turn 1 Noble Hierachs and BoPs for mana fixing and acceleration so readily. Just a thought.

They could just use Shrieking Drake and Memnite, and still dominate the format. I am not particulary in favor of banning anything, but if you ban Basking Rootwalla with the intention to weaken UG Madness, I don't see it happening.

[Vandalize]

Yeah, banning rootwalla would make no difference at all. They have a bunch of free creatures they can tutor for... Not only Shrieking Drake or Memnite. They have access to Kobolds, Phyrexian Walker, Phyrexian Marauder, etc...

The problem with Vengevival isn't its explosiveness, as everyone is talking about... The problem is that they can tutor for an answer (in form of creatures) for every hate on the deck: Shriekmaw, Qasali Pridemage, Orzhov Pontiff, etc... Still, it's not a "breaking format" strategy.

[jrw1985]

And what would change in our MD/SB?
Right now I feel like there is no room for STingscourger and Warren Weirding.

Having a creature in MD that is only able to bounce your opponent's creature seems bad against Survival.
Warren Weirding also doesn't hit properly, cause when facing Vengevival they always have other stuff to sac (like Rootwalla and Shield Sphere).
Of course I am only considering Vengevival decks here, but they are dominating the format and I therefore don't want to pack removal that's bad against them.

Stingscourger and weirding aren't as amazing as they were when Reaminator was everywhere. However, they still have a variety of uses that keep them playable. Yes, Stingscourger sucks against Survival, but that's why Sideboarding is part of the game. Stingscourger is still great against KotR, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Emrakul, and Iona. Being able to cheat it into play off of Lackey and Vial is also tremendously powerful.

Weirding is still great across the board, even against Survival. You really want it in your deck when the Survival player gets sneaky and decides to side in Natural Order/ Progenitus.

It already is IS very susceptible to manadenial (in this case manadenial should also take the form of removal @ Hierarchs BoPs)

Creature removal is not mana denial. NH and BoP make Wasteland less effective and Survival's activation is Port proof.

They could just use Shrieking Drake and Memnite, and still dominate the format. I am not particulary in favor of banning anything, but if you ban Basking Rootwalla with the intention to weaken UG Madness, I don't see it happening.

Banning Rootwalla would hamper Survival a ton. With Rootwalla in the deck Survival needs only 1 creature to make Vengevines go online and have a utility creature in hand (Survival Creature, vine, vine, vine, vine, rootwalla, rootwalla, utility creature in hand). Since they only need 1 creature in hand to do this they can keep opening hands with just Survival because they know they only need to draw into 1 creature to make it go online. Also, since creatures are not a resource the deck needs to manage (because of Rootwalla) it can play T1 NH or BoP knowing they can still draw into a second creature to get their chain going. That gives the deck mana acceleration and mana fixing options that wouldn't be available to it if it couldn't play Rootwalla. Shrieking Drake could be good in the deck, but it can't be played at instant speed like Rootwalla, so it can't be used to play around mana denial.

[ScatmanX]

I think there will be a lot of Merfolk / Counterbalnce/ Zoo / Junk / Bant.
With That, I'll probably go back to Rb, with Weirdings, and Perish and Planar Void sb...

[jin]

Stingscourger and weirding aren't as amazing as they were when Reaminator was everywhere..

I hope we are talking about both cards in the same deck, because I played mono-red with stinger in the main against reanimator and I would hardly call that amazing. At best I would say I was relieved to have him and Vial at 2 considering a stinger without AEther Vial means you still lose.

Creature removal is not mana denial. NH and BoP make Wasteland less effective and Survival's activation is Port proof.

It was a poor choice of words, but we all knew what he meant. He basically wants to limit Survival's G so that they can't explode.

Banning Rootwalla would hamper Survival a ton. With Rootwalla in the deck Survival needs only 1 creature to make Vengevines go online and have a utility creature in hand (Survival Creature, vine, vine, vine, vine, rootwalla, rootwalla, utility creature in hand). Since they only need 1 creature in hand to do this they can keep opening hands with just Survival because they know they only need to draw into 1 creature to make it go online. Also, since creatures are not a resource the deck needs to manage (because of Rootwalla) it can play T1 NH or BoP knowing they can still draw into a second creature to get their chain going. That gives the deck mana acceleration and mana fixing options that wouldn't be available to it if it couldn't play Rootwalla. Shrieking Drake could be good in the deck, but it can't be played at instant speed like Rootwalla, so it can't be used to play around mana denial.

The wizard people have experience with this stuff, I'm pretty sure they'll take care of it. I wonder if they have a ton of people build the deck except not allow them to use that card and see if the deck is still functional.. LOL...

[Tom T]

Hey guys,

yesterday I participated in my first leacy tournament ever. It has been 3 years since the last tournament (standard).
As I said I expected a lot of tendrills-decks and aggro. The list I play is the same as most of the goblin warchiefs here:

//Mainboard

Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

Standard Package [26]
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Flexibel Slots [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Lightning Bolt

//Sideboard [15]
3 Relic of Progenitus (Random GY-hate)
4 Chalice of the Void (TES, AnT, Thresh, Stiflenaught)
4 Pyrokinesis (UG-Survival, GW-Survival, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, <insert random small aggro-deck>)
3 Pithing Needle (CounterTop, Equipment, Survival, Grindstone, Affinity, a lot more)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (Equipment, Dreadnaught, other scary artifacts)


With this list I tested A LOT against (Small) Zoo, Big Zoo, Affinity, GW-survival, UGW-Survival and URg-Thresh. The first 5 decks were a pain in the ass all the time, but I knew these were my baddest match-ups. This mindset kept me from losing faith in the deck. It quickly became clear that post-board Pyrokinesis really shined against a lot of match-ups.

There were 28 enthousiasts who came all the way to Eindhoven for a couple of games. In the same store there was a Constructed PTQ with like 60 participants.
Before the tournament began I took a look around to see what I could expect from the other players.
I saw some The Rock, Zoo and UG-Survival. There also were a lot of Goblin-decks (5 out of 28).
But! No TES/AnT!


[Round 1] Tristan with UG-Survival
Game 1)
As I head to my first opponent I recognize him as the UG-Survival player. This is my chance to test my skills against the deck.
We both mull to 6.
I start of with a Lackey, but he has a Rootwalla that keeps preventing free goblins. He gets a jitte online, while I matron for a Skirk Prospector. He thinks it's an odd choice, until I block-sac a goblin for the first time. For three turns this keeps his jitte from getting counters.
In that time I build a small army. He gets Survival and with 4 lands
(one of them is a Gaea's Cradle) he gets there with the VVines.

Out: 3 Mogg War Marshal, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 Gempalm Incinerator
In: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
He mulls to 5 and I keep my 7.
I start of with mountain lackey go
He plays a Forest, Noble Hierarch
I attack with lackey, he blocks, and I play a Vial.
He plays Mongrel and passes.
The next few turns we are both mana screwed and both stick at 2 lands.
I keep him of 2 mana with port and build my army because of Matron->Skirk Prospector. In the meantime I vial in some warchief and ringleaders which only reveal other Ringleaders. Eventually I kill him with some Piledrivers after destroying his Jitte with Tuktuk.

Out: 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Piledriver, 1 Vial
In: 3 Pithing Needle

Game 3)
He mulls to 3, I mull to 6.
He plays forest go
I play mountain lackey go.
He plays a Tropical Island and passes
I play wasteland, Pithing Needle @ survival, waste his Tropical Island, Pyrokinesis his Rootwalla, attack with Lackey and get myself a Matron, which gets a Sharpshooter.
He plays a land and a mongrel.
I keep him of mana with port (with a waste as backup), keep his hand empty by bolting his Mongrel and build my army. Later on I swing for the win.

1-0


[Round 2] Joost with Zoo
I knew this guy played Zoo and besides I tested a lot against the deck I must say I was quite sad with the second 'bad match-up for goblins'.

Game 1)
I get to play first and we both keep our original 7.
I play mountain vial go.
He fetches a Taiga, Nacatl, go
I play Rishadan Port go.
The next few turns I mess up his mana with the Rishadan port and 2 Wasteland. I get a couple of hits from his nacatl, which eventually dies to a Sharpshooter with a MWM trigger. He burns a lot of my creatures and eventually scoops.

Out: 2 Piledriver, 2 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Chieftain
In: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
We both mull to 6
He plays 1st turn Grim lavamancer. I get a Lackey which he destroys using Lightning Helix
I waste his non-basic, leaving him with a mountain and a lavamancer.
He plays Horizon Canopy and Lavamancer attacks.
Next turn I get to port his Mountain and he has no land drop.
He attacks with his Lavamancer and after I waste his Horizon Canopy he has to use Path to Exile on his own Lavamancer.
From here on I win the game because of MWM and Piledriver.

2-0

I'm going nuts here. My first tourney, 2 bad matchups and I won 2 times already. Wonderful feeling!


[Round 3] Steven with Dreadstill

Game 1)
I forgot if we mulled or not.

I start of with mountain, vial, go.
He starts off with Underground Sea, go
I play Rishadan Port go
In his upkeep I tap his Sea and he plays an Island and Ponder. EOT I vial in Lackey. He sighs.
My turn I waste his sea and connect with Lackey into Warchief
He gets a land but can't stop piledriver, lackey, warchief.

Out: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Chieftain, 1 MWM
In: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
He gets manascrewed and my single wasteland, 2 piledriver, warchief and MWM end the round.

After this I test against his TES-deck. He tells me how the deck works, apart from winning quickly by a massive storm-count. He also explains his sideboard, hate and anti-hate. What a great guy! I prepared a bit for this match-up but the only combodecks around were 2 Solidarity-decks.

3-0

[Round 4] Really nice guy but I forgot his name with (Big?) Zoo with Noble Hierarch
It's his second tournament and since it's my first tournament we don't know if we can draw intentionally. We ask some veterans and decide to draw.
After this we play a round which i win 2-0 because of Wasteland/Port/MWM/Lightning Bolt/Pyrokinesis(!!!)/Vial

3-0-1

[Round 5] Brenda with BGW Rock + Mox Diamond, Maze of Ith
Because she is first with 11 points and I'm second with 10 points we decide to draw.
Because she's hungry we only play 1 game (without board).
First few turns I have Vial and keep her of 3 mana with Rishadan Port. She has Maze of Ith to prevent some damage. She keeps on playing discard spells like Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach and Inquisition of Kozilek.
Eventually she gets 4 mana and while I keep attacking with Piledriver. She topdecks 2 Goyf and 2 KotR, while she's on 8 life. I get Sharpshooter thanks to Matron and keep on blocking with goblins like MWM, while I shoot damage with sharpshooter.
Eventually I attack with 3 creatures when she's on 3 life. I shoot her to 0 life with Sharpshooter as my goblins die in combat.
I really feared StP at that moment.

3-0-2

I'm Top8! Wow!
Funny thing was that 4 out of 5 of my opponents went top8. I don't know if this is common or not, though.

[Top8, Quarterfinals] Nice guy with U/B Merfolk

Game 1)
I mull to 6 and he keeps his 7.
He gets to play first. Turn1 underground sea, Vial
I waste his U-sea and pass
He gets Island and pass
I play mountain and get lackey
Next turn he has vial@2 and I'm about to attack with Lackey, but choose not to. He EOT vials in a Coralhelm Commander.
Later on I have to break a Standstill and from here on it looks bad for me. He finishes me with three lords and some other fish.

Out: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Mogg War Marshal, 1 Skirk Prospector
In: 4 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk

Game 2)
We both get 2 vial in the first and second turn. He has a lot of lords and I have 2 piledrive and a Warchief. I'm waiting for more goblins to go lethal with port backup for his Mutavault. I get Pyrokinesis (too late) but no goblins. He taps my warchief before he stomps me out of Top8 with 4 lords, Cursecatcher and a Mutavault.

I win a Scalding Tarn and end a succesful first legacy tournament with a 5th place.

I realized that Wasteland and Rishadan Port are even better than I thought they were. Zoo is even an easy match-up with the manadenial-plan, MWM and Lightning Bolt.

Merfolk isn't a hard match-up for Goblins I've heard, but I didn't know how to play the game. How do you guys play against Merfolk and which strategy do you have against it?

This thread has helped me A LOT to improve my skills with the green dudes. Thank you!

Grt, Tom

[GoboLord]

Congratz Tom, good job!

From what you wrote in your report about ingame situation I would not have played any different.
Well... against Merfolk it's not a good idea to board out Gempalms (since they don't break Standstill and interact with your opponent's Mutavaults). Plus, I'd not have boarded Scrapper.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish!
On to the comments:
Against UGMadness, why no Needle game 2?
Also, there was no need to cast Needle game 3 the way you did. He was low on mana. IF he casted Survival, you could play Needle the following turn. It he played a Jitte, you could be in bad shape there....

Against Merfolk, Gempalms are good. They are uncounterable removal that cantrip, and go under a Standstill. They should not be removed. I think they're better than Bolt here, if you don't want to remove anything else.

[Tom T]

Congratz Tom, good job!

From what you wrote in your report about ingame situation I would not have played any different.
Well... against Merfolk it's not a good idea to board out Gempalms (since they don't break Standstill and interact with your opponent's Mutavaults). Plus, I'd not have boarded Scrapper.

Thanks! I boarded Scrapper in case Jitte showed up.
After the round we had a discussion about my playing style against Merfolk. Gempalm Incinerator were indeed awesome against Merfolk, but I didn't see that while playing. Next time I'll focus more on these cards. The interaction with mutavault slipped my mind, thanks!

[Vandalize]

Congratulations Tom T!

There's only one thing I didn't like about your sideboard. Those Relic of Progenitus. I personally like Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre over Relic because they're free and you don't need to leave mana open for triggering.

I didn't see any use of Siege-Gang Commander in your report, next time, you may try to sideout 1 or 2 pieces and add more hate against Zoo :)

[Amon Amarth]

@Tom T: Best way to win against Merfolk is a wall of Goblin Piledrivers, and like everyone else said dont board out Gempalms here. They are relatively slow so GI really shines here.

[lotriderm]

Like what everyone else above said, leave in Gempalm against Merfolk. I also wouldn't have sided in Tuktuk either because you saw Underground Sea in game1 and Ub Merfolk doesn't run Jitte.

A question to everyone: in matchups where I want more removal, it seems kind of counterintuitive to replace my maindeck removal with pyrokinesis. For example, Tom T sided out some Gempalms in both the Zoo and Merfolk matchups and brought in Pyrokinesis. I usually would prefer to leave in my maindeck removal and bring in more. What's everyones take on this? BTW, I don't run Lightning Bolt if that makes a difference.