Hmm, the extra 3 removal spells is nice and you can use it to get rid of Jaces and so on. Anyways, I'll try it out in that slot. Seems like as good an idea as any.
The crusader does appear to be deadly with a SoFaI or Jitte on it....
EDIT: I am a little worried since the Crusaders have the same Protections that the missing Swords would have. I hope WotC didn't make these guys to replace the last two Equipments in the set.
The crusader could be the new beater. If you don't specially need Jotun Grunt in your meta, I'd swap them.
However, this will need testing...
I'm just going to test it in place of O-Ring and will move them into the SB for matchups where you need general non-creature removal. I'm interested in how it'll turn out.
Honnestly I would just totally revise the deck.
I mean without the combat tricks with damage on the stack, the all the tricks we have are:
vial @3 + flickerwhisp for shinanigans, and sometimes stonecloaker (and if you play it resetting jotun grunt)
and karrakas + mangara (+ flickerwhisp/stonecloaker)
This might sound stupid, but maybe we should try the weeny+equipment approach (max out on stoneforge mystic's, ad some things that like equipment, maybe geddon and cataclysm...)
Just throwing it out there, but if you ask me, this deck is becoming less and less taxing and more and more dead...
Yeah, esp. because it's working so well!Originally Posted by overseer1234
In German, we call this "verschlimmbessern". Now I'm perfectly aware that most of you won't be able to decipher what that means, but that's OK, as long as you're not doing it! ;) Don't fix what ain't broken.
While you are right about, dont touch a running system...
His point is valid besides the totally revise the deck...because he didnt really suggest that ^^
The deck is already pretty equipment heavy, playing the full set of stoneforges isnt uncommon anymore and jeah...it is a good idea because the card is broken and with vial it allows to play nearly every card in your deck uncounterable...which is sick.
On the other hand...never drop Flickerwisp for it ...best card in the deck atm if you ask me.
I'm running Stoneforge Mystic as a 4-of in D&T since the card was printed, simply because it's bonkers-good. It also provides the card advantage that the archetype has been craving for as long as it had existed, although in a somewhat limited (yet definitely relevant) form. The problem with further development of the deck, imho, is not what to include, but what to take out for it. 2/2 double strike and double protection for 3 of course is crazy, but I don't see what to cut. None of the critters that are agreed basically upon to be in the deck are to be questioned imho, and I'm having a hard time envisioning Mirran Crusader outright replacing anything.
What I'd really like to see is the Sword of Something and Something Else cycle completed. Protection from white and from red (I'd also be happy to see this on a decent critter that we can stick into D&T) would really up the deck's power level in my opinion.
Well, protection from white and from red would make our matchup against zoo much more favorable. mmmmmm...putting that hypothetical sword on the mirran crusader would be pretty neat.
As for what to take out for the crusader...well. My first guess (without any test) is that we can cut an Avenger and a Grunt. Those two are the beaters, and Crusader is a beater. I might be wrong, but I don't think that you would like to see more than 1 on the opening 7, so as 2-of (at least for the moment) seems perfect.
Once you have a smoothly functioning deck, this is ALWAYS the problem. See sig.
@Lorgalis, I like that idea. Avenger's got Flying, but Crusader has evasion too. Avenger's got Vigilance, but Double Strike works even better with the equipment.
Likewise, Grunt may be seen as less and less important to have huge numbers of with Survival allegedly on its last legs, with Reanimator nerfed by Mystic Tutor, etc. There's still Zoo as a major player that likes big yards, and land/loam decks. The continued importance of Grunt depends on how the meta pans out in the new year.
The one problem to be aware of is cutting 2-drops for 3-drops. Yes we want the Vial to end up at 3, but we need to stay alive on the trip there, and sometimes you want to or need to hardcast a critter. That said, I wouldn't cut Flickerwisp to less than 4, or Mangara to less than 3. Avenger, ORing, and Grunt do seem like the best bets.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Well, I don't play with O-Ring, so I can't cut that. :p
While it is indeed a good card, I don't see the Crusader being more than a 2-of. But time and testing will tell...
I think the only two creatures that I would look to replace with the new crusader would be the two main beaters (Avenger & Grunt) but first lets look at what is gained/lost. Keep in mind the synergies with the rest of the deck.
Avenger:
flying
2cc
Grunt:
graveyard
2cc
4 power
Crusader:
doublestrike
evasion
3cc
with Jitte -> Crusader is way better - 8 damage first attack, 16 damage second attack!
with any sword -> Crusader is way better - 8 damage per attack plus twice the triggers
So if we are already going the Mystics route, I'm sad to say that maybe Avenger is out of the list at this point. It's not relevant enough to be SB material and if it doesn't win nearly as fast, I'd say get rid of it.
Crusader seems really good. If you have equipment. He still gets removed easily enough with burn, or stp. If I were to run him, I wouldn't be taking out grunt, or avenger. I would drop some of the arbiters I have in the main for him, and I wouldn't run 4.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
What would your list end up looking like? You probably got rid of the Harriers/Forge Tenders for Arbiter, and you're replacing Arbiters with Crusaders. Wouldn't the result start to look a little expensive in terms of mana investment? Perhaps you made other changes and didn't end up with such a top-heavy result. I'm just curious. =)
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Well, that's kind of the problem with replacing 2 drops with 3 drops (let alone 1 drops with 3 drops). Already, the first 3-4 turns are pretty dicey for this deck. I might look at front loading 1-2 drops with removal and control elements rather than dudes. Maybe your dude curve begins at 2 with Mystic and Grunt (this guys is so relevant in so many matchups). I know the tendency is to have some of these protection guys (and tappers in some cases) as MD but I really disagree with that. If you're playing vs anything that is not red or only uses red as acceleration or wishes, you basically have an overcosted vanilla.
I might just have my 1-drops as Swords, Vial & Mana Tithe and 2-drops as Grunt, Jitte, Mystic. I don't know, Tithe is kind of spotty but it has been amazing early game. Late game it's hit or miss but by that point, you want to win with your beater.
No mother of runes?
Edit: Sorry didn't see that you didn't want protection guys...haha but still mother is so full of win...it holds off attackers and provides protection plus vial @ 1 does something...
No, I do agree that Mother is really good but you have to look at when she becomes relevant.
The guy you want to protect ideally is vialed in turn 4 (attacking turn 5). Now, I guess you can have her sitting around chumping as early as turn 2 (if you missed your vial drop) or 3. I would argue that Mother should never warrant more than a couple spots MD.
I know this deck archetype allows for a variety of play-styles so it's hard for me to say what would be good for one list over another without seeing how you want to win and how you intend to get there.
Biggest problem facing this deck is surviving long enough to win. Then it's not an instant win so you need to push it through. Traditionally that meant controlling the mid game. Most of the utility that prevents an auto-loss to decks like combo, come in from the SB. The deck has a great game vs. anything using the graveyard and post SB does pretty well vs. red decks.
Another tournament today, went 2-1 versus Elves Combo and two times GUw Survival, see http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...postcount=2944 for details. Arbiter once again proves its worth.
I was one of the first (if not the first) players to permanently adapt Mother of Runes into my list back many, many moons ago, and I think it's agreed-upon that she's one of the best, if not the best, critter one-drop available for the archetype. She's a creature that must be answered by pretty much anything but combo (and she can also get those decks into trouble, given the right partner in crime), or will provide lots of virtual card advantage. Everyone running D&T without a full playset of her really is missing an important building block of the deck.
Wow, NO. I can agree that Mom is a strong card. BUT like most decks there are more controlling versions and more aggro ones. I myself am running a very aggro D+T list, Moms only slow it down. In my meta I need to punch out more damage as quickly as possible, control their mana, and get the attackers through. Without Moms, I have been going x-1 and x-0 in my local. Had I been using here, I would not be making moneys on a weekly basis.
On to Mirran Crusader. The dude has potential, that much is sure. If your deck can support running O-Ring in the SB, then he might be able to replace it. I will say this, Doublestrike is something I keep my eye on, and after using Kor Duelist to some success I look forward to trying out Crusader.
Hi guys. Before you all go switching out Avengers and Grunts for these new Crusaders, ask yourself how often find yourself attacking with an equipped creature and not winning. If I am at that stage in the game, I have it pretty well wrapped up even if I am sending in Mother of Runes with a weapon in her hands. The extra damage is Timmy win-more. The protection from green is the most important part of that equation imo. Any discussion on swapping cards should have that feature as this creature's primary focus.
Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?
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