I always run one of each basic (at least), so I can play everything (almost) in the deck just off basics alone (say against Wastelock from Stax/43 Lands, or under Blood Moon). Forest allows me to put out Goyfs, Knights, and Pulse if need be. It's not as good as a basic swamp, but I like having it there in case. Plus, if I don't like it, it gets sacrificed to KotR
Blood Moon fucked me one to many times back in the day, as did Wastelock (I used to play 0 basics in every deck. Like I said, I now never leave home without basics).
-Matt
One of each basic is KEY. I've lost to Blood Moon effects back when I play Vintage b/c I had zero basics. Never again will I scoop to a T2-T3 Blood Moon effect.
And I've been Stripped Locked before, so therefore I know the pain 10x worse then Wastelock, I will not go down like that.
With Moxes and 1 of each basic, nobody should be having problems. And nobody should ever side out/not side in Pernicious Deed, it's great against them. Truth is, all you really need to do is worry about your manabase, maybe kill a chalice, and everything comes easy after that.
Pit Dragon is the only *real* worry here. It gets really big and hits for a lot. You know how you stop that? Vindicate, Ghastly Demise, Swords, Path, Maze of Ith, Pulse, Edict...
Point being, they have a lower threat density, their Trinispheres/REB don't bother us. The only problems we do have are Blood Moon is more annoying than other cards are, and their unanswered threats can be quite good. But, early discard coupled with cheap removal should get us there. I agree: keep Deed in. Wiping our board in exchange for theirs will most likely be very beneficial.
-Matt
@ sdematt
Are you going to try to get some playtesting in for that mu?
And just how good is Ghastly Demise in the board? I have 3 slots to play with and I don't own any Krosan Grips atm, would the be a wise add?
I've been playing Ghastly Demise in my Doran build (2 Dorans, -2 Verdict, basically identical to Brad Nelson's list otherwise), and it's been very good. It's like having another Swords/Path most of the time, as you usually have 3+ cards in the yard even early on. The only problem is not hitting non-black. I've had a few occasions where it did matter (Tombstalker), but otherwise it's been stellar.
I'm not even sure if you need Grips, depending on your build. I think if you want to put kill in the board, Path is the next best, with Ghastly a close second after Path. Edict is different, but serves a similar purpose. If they unban Mystical, or if you see a lot of Reanimator/NO combo, I'd say put 3 Edict in the board.
-Matt
As a prominent Stompy player, I can honestly say that topdecks/random opening hand aside, the MU is in Rock's favor. Bob provides you with card advantage we can't deal with, and the Goyfs/KotR are bigger than any of our creatures get and all sit easily above our burn range. Deed also manages to get there. A big part of the deck's defense is shutting off decks that rely heavily on the 1-2 cmc cards. While Rock runs it's fair share, it also has a Deed as a board sweeper and Vindicate for targeted removal.
Ghastly Demise > Path to Exile for Stompy MU: The reason for this is because firstly, we have no GY recursion so the RFG isn't relevant. Secondly, remember that our deck has no card advantage outside builds that run Sword of Fire and Ice, so that extra land from PtE actually does help as it removes the possibility for a topdeck land.
Really, the deck shouldn't be a difficult MU for Rock and is a random MU since it loses to random jank and is incredibly inconsistent.
As for Stompy SB, the only think I would really for sure SB in is Tormod's Crypt, however the number of Stompy players who opt for GY hate is minimal, and I only opt for it because there are a prominant number of GY-based decks in my meta (ie. Lands/Reanimator/Aggro Loam). I would also most likely opt for Pyrokinesis.
Even after SB the MU is still heavily in your favor.
Forlorn Egoist
pte isn't bad. for example you can always path your own creature for a colored mana when a moon effect is on the stack. I have to say this... The only time stompy is hard is if they get a t1 moon and you have all fetches in your hand
Forlorn is so right. It's really inconsistent. It isn't very solid. It doesn't have a whole lot of threats... It should be fairly easy match up. But it rarely shows up...
Why are we still talking about the Dragon Stompy matchup? Very few people even play that deck to begin with because it's not good. You should be more focused on real decks, especially ones that are gonna come back if survival is banned - zoo, goblins, merfolk, aka the aggro decks.
Exactly. I run a far less stable mana base against Moon or Waste-lock, but I've got Extirpate to deal with Waste and/or LftL and Moon sees play primarily in D-Stompy (occasionally in Gobbos board) so I feel comfortable with only 2 basics (Swamp and Plains).Originally Posted by Magicsk8ngenius
@Extirpate vs. CB/Top: generally, I'll lead with something else, let them top for a counterbalance then Extirpate. This way, I know Extirpate resolves and I've got a good chance of the other spell resolving too. Taking any of the pillar cards is good, whether it's Plow, Goyf, Force, NO, you name it. Any time you can cut someone off from an entire aspect of their deck and see all their tricks, you're doing well. I'll know that they're out of removal or hard counters or their primary win-con, etc. And I can play with that knowledge improving my decision-making.
Well, at the cb top thing, you will likely only get 1 thing. You could lead with goyf. But they use top o look at the top three If you extirpate with it on the stack they shuffle and
Flip to see If goyf resolves. Once cb gets established and you have no board position... It's hard
You play 'goyf. CB triggers. They respond by topping. Top ability resolves. You Extirpate StP from their yard with CB still on the stack. CB triggers, but they've got a 2 CMC on top of their library now. They probably choose not to flip. Extirpate reesolves, they shuffle. Now if they've got the mana, they can top again but they still need to find another 2 CMC.
Edit: this is relevant because they've probably only got about 10 2 CMC cards total ( 2 Thopter, 1 Sword, 4 CB, 3 Counterspell) and 1 of them is in play. So you're talking a 50% chance of having one in the top 3 even if they can top again.
I'm not really sure how the Extirpate helps here. What if they didn't have a 2 CMC in their top three to begin with? Then Extirpate just gave them a free shuffle and a second chance to counter your Goyf.You play 'goyf. CB triggers. They respond by topping. Top ability resolves. You Extirpate StP from their yard with CB still on the stack. CB triggers, but they've got a 2 CMC on top of their library now. They probably choose not to flip. Extirpate reesolves, they shuffle. Now if they've got the mana, they can top again but they still need to find another 2 CMC.
Edit: this is relevant because they've probably only got about 10 2 CMC cards total ( 2 Thopter, 1 Sword, 4 CB, 3 Counterspell) and 1 of them is in play. So you're talking a 50% chance of having one in the top 3 even if they can top again.
I think the assumption here is that you are wanting to force the Extirpate and resolving the Goyf would just be icing on the cake.
Of those three, Zoo worries me the least. Its mana base is exploitable and we have much better CA and card quality over them. Big Zoo might be the worse of the two versions as it'll be using Nobles and Wastelands.You should be more focused on real decks, especially ones that are gonna come back if survival is banned - zoo, goblins, merfolk, aka the aggro decks.
Merfolk would be the next toughest. They have Wastelands themselves and aren't hurt as badly by our Wastelands. Pre-board it's probably close to 60-40, in favor of Merfolk. The way my board is set up, post-board I can have access to 4 Swords, 4 Paths, 4 Deeds, and 4 Vindicates. It's pretty hard for them to aggro you out before you stabilize with that amount of removal. I also use Cold-Eyed Selkie which is basically a win if it starts swinging.
Goblins would be the toughest of those three I think. 4 Paths is good against them (you need to stop t1 Lacky), but unlike Merfolk, they have a lot of ways to use their extra mana. Deed is obviously good, but they can recover faster than Fish from a Deed as well. All in all, the matchup is very winnable post-board, if you can bring in enough removal, but it's the only one of the three I would rather not play. Elspeth is very good at racing them and Maze is hot.
i think i worded my post wrong. The thing is you will rarely ever have more mana available to you than a countertop does. You also forgot brainstorm and e tutor. for 1 or 2 mana it's not unreasonable to assume they could easily blind flip it. Or top for 1 etc.
For me the key to winning the Goblins matchup is discard. Tidehollow Sculler, Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Verdict are all good against them. If you can keep strip them of their card advantage engines and/or the mana to play them, that'll give you enough time to beat them down with Goyfs and KotRs. 1 for 1 removal is only good up to an extent; they have a better long game, so the trick is to keep them off balance with discard long enough before they recover.Goblins would be the toughest of those three I think. 4 Paths is good against them (you need to stop t1 Lacky), but unlike Merfolk, they have a lot of ways to use their extra mana. Deed is obviously good, but they can recover faster than Fish from a Deed as well. All in all, the matchup is very winnable post-board, if you can bring in enough removal, but it's the only one of the three I would rather not play. Elspeth is very good at racing them and Maze is hot.
This is very weird Dzra. For me it's the exact opposite. Zoo usually gets a good amount of damage in those first few turns before I can stabalize, then they burn me out. This is especially true for the versions that are played in my meta - cat sligh (steppe lynx with extra burn). The goblins matchup is fairly simple. The only thing I need to worry about is a Lackey getting through. This is really not that big of a deal because I play mox diamond. Which means a first time goyf (preferably) or a first turn dark confidant can stop lackey if no swords are in opening grip. Even if Lackey does get through, just a goyf or so holds off their guys while I tear up their hand. Preboard it's something like 70/30 in my favor and post board more like 80/20.
Merfolk I find can be tough, but a lot of it depends on which version of the deck they are playing and the pilot. I also find the deck is pretty inconsistent in it's draws so that is also a factor too. If they are playing a counter heavy version, I think it is more benificial to them. If they are playing a more creature heavy version (standstills and sovereign) they stand a good chance. All in all it's pretty close.
For Goblins, 2 for 1 discard seems really good, I think the Thoughtseize might be weak. I might try +4 Path, +2 Deed, +2 Verdict, -4 Thoughtseize, -4 Vindicate. Maybe add 2 Thoughtseize back in when on the play instead of something?
The way most of my Zoo MUs seem to go is: they play a dude, I immediately Swords it. Then I either Hymn, Goyf, or Bob or sometimes Wasteland/Vindicate. Mox Diamonds are really key when you pair it up with LD. Against Zoo you really have to play the tempo game. Don't be afraid to Swords that Steppe Lynx or Nacatl. Sure, they'll play a Goyf or KotR eventually but by then they're either behind on mana, cards, or both.
Well fuck, Survival got the banhammer.
I'm waiting to see what decks come back from this. If Vengevine is still viable, we may be alright. If not, we need to get faster/improve out tribal matchups.
It's certainly a sad day for Legacy when I can't use a staple in the freakin' format. DCI, let my people go!
-Matt
Before survival got banned, people began to play more and more ANT, which will likely continue, at least in the near future. With the addition of Time Spiral, I think we're going to see quite a lot of storm. It may not be the place to discuss this, but if what I said happens, this deck should be adjusted to be able to beat combo more efficiently (pack more hatebears and disruption).
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
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