[Deck] Belcher

[defector]

Two lands stings. Go ahead and test it, but trust me two lands will let you down in tourneys and cost you games. It sucks. I am moving towards cutting black entirely and just going red/green. It sucks losing the best rit in the game, but its more consistent. Still testing, but my intuition is that its a good move. We'll see.

[kicks_422]

It's been a "good move" since years ago. No other version has put up consistent results aside from R/G Belcher with Burning Wishes.

[GoldenCid]

But isn't RGB more stable post board??

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think something is off on my list. It's comboing different ways consistently on turn two, but I think I want Dark Rits. I haven't been using them, but it feels like I want them in place of something. Looking at: Tinder Wall.

Thoughts? I feel like I'm twisting Belcher and SI into one list.

[median]

I don't think that's the way to go. My advise is to play rg. The biggest problem is casting your rituals. Diversifying them would just be more problematic and there's not enough of the right cards to play rb or gb.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that the +1 mana rituals are crap, and as such I'm trying to get to the +2 rits. +1 rits include Desperate Rit, Pyretic Rit, the first Rite of Flame is a +1 rit, Spirit Guides are +1 and Tinder Wall is +1, as is lotus petal and chrome Mox, only chrome mox is worse (albeit necessary as start-off mana). LED is a +3 rit with a huge drawback, only good for two purposes: activating belcher, or popping in response to IT or BWish. Song is a +2 accelerant, but you have to get to 3 mana first. Dark Ritual is a +2 rit with the ability to be played off of a start-up mana producer. Lay it down with an LED and an IT in hand and you have yourself a first turn Belcher unactivated. I think that's better than 10-12 goblins.

With all this in mind, I don't understand why the list is RG instead of BR. I guess that's the question that has me doing all this questioning. What does green give the list that black can't do better. If the answer is Land Grant, I think that's dumb. If the answer is Tinder Wall, it's worse, and if it's ESG, I quit belcher.

-ABC

P.S.-This upset me today with my playtesting so bad that I'm now drunk.

[lorddotm]

I think that the +1 mana rituals are crap, and as such I'm trying to get to the +2 rits. +1 rits include Desperate Rit, Pyretic Rit, the first Rite of Flame is a +1 rit, Spirit Guides are +1 and Tinder Wall is +1, as is lotus petal and chrome Mox, only chrome mox is worse (albeit necessary as start-off mana). LED is a +3 rit with a huge drawback, only good for two purposes: activating belcher, or popping in response to IT or BWish. Song is a +2 accelerant, but you have to get to 3 mana first. Dark Ritual is a +2 rit with the ability to be played off of a start-up mana producer. Lay it down with an LED and an IT in hand and you have yourself a first turn Belcher unactivated. I think that's better than 10-12 goblins.

With all this in mind, I don't understand why the list is RG instead of BR. I guess that's the question that has me doing all this questioning. What does green give the list that black can't do better. If the answer is Land Grant, I think that's dumb. If the answer is Tinder Wall, it's worse, and if it's ESG, I quit belcher.

-ABC

P.S.-This upset me today with my playtesting so bad that I'm now drunk.

You plan on playing Belcher without Land Grant? Hope you have fun mate, taking 5 IMS out and adding in Rituals that don't produce the colour you want (Red) seems like the game winning plan.

[MGC_player]

I can tell you from experience, that I prefer the R/G list more than ones that use B. I've also tried reconfiguring it to R/B and it just failed miserably since I could never reliably get the mana colors I wanted. Desperate Ritual actually has something I've seen most people overlook which is the splice ability. That has saved me multiple times when playing this deck.

For reference, this is the deck I am testing in real life
Land: 1
Stomping Ground - Don't have Taigas yet, but I'll get there eventually

Kill stuff: 12
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Burning Wish
2 Goblin Bushwhacker

Accelerants and mana sources: 47
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
3 Wild Cantor
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
2 Shattering Spree
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
3 other things

I've increased my turn 1-2 kill percentages with the new configuration swinging for 20 turn 1 is possible and swinging for 20 on turn 2 is a great surprise and is unexpected. It happens quite often since no one expects you to play a kicked Bushwhacker after storming for 10 goblin tokens.

I have heard of 0 land belcher and it doesn't play land grant so you can try that route as well, though I haven't really seen a list for it. I think the reason it is R/G is that the green pseudorituals like tinder wall can also produce red mana which is the main color you need in the deck and free spells like Land grant pull your land out of your library to make the belcher consistent. The addition of green isn't for a single card but more for the cumulative effect that it has on the deck that makes it incredibly consistent.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I didn't mean that I didn't think that Land Grant shouldn't be in the list, but rather that if green was chosen as a secondary color in the list based soon that card, it's a pretty lousy reason to continue on with green as opposed to just using lands that have green in them, and choosing a better secondary color. Excuse the bad wording of my previous post (I did add the drunken clause, in my defense).

After clearing my head this morning with a couple cups of coffee, I sat down and really analyzed my list compared to others without black. I came to a final list that I think is finally to my liking, and am now getting ready to playtest. Here's the list, sorry to be posting so many, but they change and I need input. Without further introduction, the list I'm most satisfied with:

RBg Belcher

7
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens

7
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

4
4 Pyroblast

16
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

2
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

20
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond

4
4 Manamorphose

Sideboard: 15
4 Duress (Thoughtseize when I can find them)
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Meltdown

--ABC

[GoldenCid]

I 1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens

Is really needed this toolbox??

[lorddotm]

2 lands seems shaky too.

All in all, the consistency of RG doesn't seem to be worth losing for the power of RBg.

[GoldenCid]

Hey! What's up! Im trying to introduce myself into a tournament with RG Belcher with this list:

1 Taiga
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Street Wraith

SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Autumn's Veil
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer

What i need is a brief guideline of how to side in the deck (it's very difficult to me). Off course if you have comments about main they will be welcomed.

[Apple]

I'd have 4 Xantid swarm, and side them in against blue control in place of street wraith. Seething Song is also unlikely to resolve against anyone with counters as well.
Ingot chewer count can be upped, and use them against anyone with chalice, needle and the like.

I'd leave the rest of the deck alone since it's the core of it. Autumn's veil usually just end up getting eaten by a counterspell. Daze should be played around when against fish.

Anyway, what has a very good matchup against this deck? My meta is rampant with blecher.

[defector]

Any of your core blue based control decks and stax lists have favorable to very favorable match ups versus belcher. As someone pointed out in an earlier post, you lose to FOW 8 out of 11 times with this deck. I think a little testing is all it takes to convince anyone that the deck simply can't support three colors. It doesn't have enough resources to do any real mana fixing either. This list wants to go off in the first seven or get Belcher on board for a turn 2-3 activation. I've tried to get the rits in and its just not working. This is the current list I am running, and so far I am pretty happy with it.

CantBelch 1.0

Mana Base-43-

Taiga X1
Elvish Spirit Guide X4
Simian Spirit Guide X4
Land Grant X4
Lotus Petal X4
Chrome Mox X4
Lion’s Eye Diamond X4
Tinder Wall X4
Rite of Flame X4
Desperate Ritual X4
Dark Ritual X1
Pyretic Ritual X2
Manamorphose X4
Seething Song X4

Kill-11-
Goblin Charbelcher X4
Burning Wish X4
Empty the Warrens X3

Creatures-4-
Wild Cantor X4

Sideboard-15-
Xantid Swarm X4
Guttural Response X4
Infernal Tutor X1
Empty the Warrens X1
Goblin War Strike X1
Pyroclasm X1
Reverent Silence X1
Regrowth X1
Hull Breach X1

This deck sides like a SOB, almost its whole game planis an "all in" combo. First out are seething song and cantor for xantid and guttural. Those are the only cards I side in and then only against control everything else I just race or look for wish utility. Everything subject to change, but this is whats going to my next weekly tournament:) With Survival out its kind of wide open right now, so have no idea what I'll be running into. Once the meta re adjusts boards will probably change a bit. I love the maindeck here, cantor lets you hold the one extra mana from seething song on for the next turn and smooth out the tinder wall draws. So far very happy with this, any ideas or responses please let me know.

[FieryBalrog]

Your list is 63 cards- the mana sources add up to 48, not 43 (which would have been 2 cards short). What would you cut? I wanted to try the list so I cut 2x Pyretic Ritual 1x Desperate Ritual as those seemed the weakest.

[Ozymandias]

The 4 Wild Cantor and 1 Dark Ritual are both mistakes IMO. I would cut them and add two more pyretic ritual, which may or may not be better than Grim Monolith in that slot. Double Tinder Wall draws, while sometimes awkward, are highly unlikely, and so Cantor is not really worth it--especially since it is pretty much +1 storm and nothing else in R/G belcher. If you want to bank mana, Grim Monolith has to be better than Cantor, even if it is colorless mana. If you want rits, then you need a Bayou.

I think your wishboard needs Diminishing Returns for times when 10 goblin tokens are not going to get there and you don't six mana to IT->belcher. Regrowth isn't good enough, because any time you're casting it, you are just hemhorraging mana and effctively setting yourself multiple turns back. Goblin War Strike is basically win-more. Hull Breach is better off as Shattering Spree+Simplify/Reverent Silence, because mana is at a premium. I personally like SB tendrils but you probably don't need it.

[defector]

I completely screwed up my cut and paste. I don't know how I managed that one.

One Land Belcher

Mana Base-45-

Taiga X1
Elvish Spirit Guide X4
Simian Spirit Guide X4
Land Grant X4
Lotus Petal X4
Chrome Mox X4
Lion’s Eye Diamond X4
Tinder Wall X4
Rite of Flame X4
Desperate Ritual X4
Manamorphose X4
Seething Song X4

Kill-11-
Goblin Charbelcher X4
Burning Wish X4
Empty the Warrens X3

Creatures-4-
Wild Cantor X4


This is the list I am running. I would prefer grim monolith in the wild cantor slot, I just don't have them yet. I don't like tendrils in the board, but probably should go back to the one diminishing returns. I haven't given up in regrowth yet, but I think your right.

[defector]

One thing in defense of Cantor, Chrome Mox is a terrible necessary evil in this deck and Cantor mitigates C-Mox a lot.

[GoldenCid]

Why monolith would be so relevant??

[defector]

The reason why I like Monolith is that you get mana that sticks around. A resolved Monolith is a Belcher activation in waiting. It's also all the colorless mana that ETW needs. It takes two to cast and gets you three, so it fits your acceleration game plan. So thats the benefit of Monolith. Now that things that suck about Monolith. Its another two cost spell that nets you one in a deck that doesn't need another two cost that nets you one. It also has no color help and no synergy with Chrome Mox. That being said I wonder if two Cantor and two Monolith might be a good configuration. This deck can be very frustrating in that you can get a hand full of acceleration, but all your acceleration costs two and you only have one SSG or ESG or Land Grant. This makes you mull or take pretty heavy risks that you'll draw into enough to kick off. I look at belcher almost like a chemistry experiment where you have catalysts and reactants and products. The catalysts are the zero costs or the RFG for Mana spells, the reactants are the standard acceleration spells and the Burning Wishes and the products are the wincons in ETW and Belcher. There seems to be a pretty string consensus on "products" 11 wincons is the way to go, but the correct configuration of catalysts and reactants is where the debate and fine tuning is. I hope that helps to answer you question, at least my opinion of it. Forgive the rambling:)