I had another question: our meta frequently has 1-2 Lands players. Without FKZ, my tokens always die to Tabernacle without getting a chance to attack. Obviously Ichorid is good here, but multiple Maze of Iths also solve.
My question is what are the best DR targets in this matchup? I had some success with Terastodon, however again most of the time they can just use Loam to return anything you kill.
I have seen Realm Razer in some sideboards, which seems solid albeit narrow. What about Inkwell Leviathan? They can't Maze of Ith him and they frequently run Tropical Island, so he seems well placed on paper. Could additionally be brought in against other blue decks as well. Thoughts?
Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.
Tabernacle + Wastelock = Inkwell no good
Well the way I see it. You sacrifice a few cards that aren't a huge deal to play 2-3 win cons that can be dread returned. These targets don't always show up, but if they do it's an added win con. In other words you have the normal consistency of a dredge deck with added possible faster ways to win that sometimes show up, and they often do.
@thesleeper: terastodon would be my choice there, too.or just being faster:P
@silent1391
No you don't. I don't know the deck you are talking about, I really don't think cutting any card thats in the standard list is good. Every card there is a great deal more important than an added win con. Plus, there is no added wincon.You win through combat damage, just the same.
Which cards do you mean that are not a great deal?
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Well I just cut a golgari thug going from 4 to 3 and a tireless tribe going from 4 to 3 also. Plus 4 putrid imps. So there's enough discard.
Okay, then you seem to be sure that you want to run DR targets.
It's fine, definately,maybe a meta call I think? But then again, have you considered leaving sphinx out and still run 4 Tribes?
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I think I'm going to run 4 tribes because you're right it's more consistent, but I don't know what to cut. I'm at 11 dredgers which is the lowest anyone should go. I have 14 lands which is the lowest. The cards worth considering would be breakthrough (I have 4 MD) or cabal therapy (4 of MD). I'm leaning towards cabal therapy just because 3 is enough to get your oppnenet's key card out of their hand and if I'm Main boarding Iona I can shut a player off of a color completely so it's like I still have 4 main boarded hand disruption spells. Plus now that I'm playing 3 dread return instead of 2 I have just as many sac outlets. But as for the sphinx. From play testing the main boarded Iona, Sphinx and FKZ I have found that having 3 ways to essentially DR and win has consistently increased the decks speed because it gives me another way to end the game on turn 2. So for now I like the 3 DR targets.
Did you test the targetless version?Originally Posted by Silent1391
And srsly, and I'm about to write that in caps, not to yell but to make it clear:
DO NOT EVER RUN LESS THEN FOUR CABAL THERAPIES.EVER.
Please.Just don't. If you have to, cut a Breakthrough.
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kk so maybe a breakthrough. hmmm. As for testing the none DR targets. My meta is mostly naya zoo, merfolk, and goblins. All of those decks get creatures out really quickly. They have been able to chump block my GGT all day while still getting in with their lackeys/other creatures. I found that turn 2 iona wins the game almost every time or if I don't get iona I can turn 2 have a ton of hasty zombies and kill them that way. I went with the big grave troll method last week at a tournament and got overrun everytime. The ability to still go with the slower beat down strategy while having the ability to pretty often win turn 2 with combos at the loss of only 3 cards main board makes the deck more versatile IMO.
Okay, a meta call then.
Well, in the end, it's all up to you and your playstyle, if you are getting better results with your list, it would be senseless to change it.
I find it rather strange though, as I had the exact opposite results against the decks you mentionend. Oo
Strange world.
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The singleton Darkblast fulfills two functions:
A) It can randomly kill Peacekeeper, Yixlid Jailer, Goblin Welder, etc and it has some marginal utility in the mirror.
B) It's an "uncounterable" discard outlet for one mana.
Against Lands you want to set this play up:
Dread Return Terastodon. Kill their Glacial Chasm and as many random other lands as you want (Maze of Ith mostly). (Dread Return Sphinx of Lost Truths here if necessary). Dread Return Flame Kin Zealot. Attack for lethal.
You have to have access to FKZ to kill them before they can Loam again.
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Darkblast can also prevent your Ichorids from eating StP's. All in all it seems like a solid addition to the list.
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I'm liking this list. It seems to have consistency and the ability to quickly DR a number of targets and win the game as early as turn 2. The only thing I'm iffy on is 2 dread returns, but I figure the Iona and the sphinx is an either or situation and you really have no problem getting at least 1 of the 2 DR in the graveyard. What do ya think?
City of Brass x4
Gemstone Mine x4
Tarnished Citadel x2
Cephalid Coliseum x3
Golgari Grave Troll x4
Stinkweed Imp x4
Golgari Thug x3
Tireless Tribe x4
Putird Imp x4
Iona x1
Flame-kin Zealot x1
Sphinx of Lost Truths x1
Ichorid x3
Narcomeba x4
Darkblast x1 (It's nice with the 4 tribes and this to have 5 MB ways to stop lackey. My meta is full of goblins.)
Breakthrough x4
Careful Study x3
Cabal Therapy x4
Dread Return x2
Bridge From Below x4
-1 Iona or Sphinx, +1 Dread Return, I would say.
After loads of testing I came to the conclusion that I like the maindeck proposed by HokusSchmokus here the best for its high consistency and conservative card choices. I have already played Ichorid in 12-13 real tournaments, but against my firm believe, running 3 Ichorid seems to be the right choice.
For the board however I have different views. I don't think one should sacrifice the combo matchup. There are so many great, free cards one can use there and that make it very winable. This is especially important as usually I hate overboarding for certain matchups and weakening the decks own pretty good ability to play arround crypts with discard outlets too much.
Chalice of the Void was underperforming in testing against combo, as well as mindbreak trap. Much better results came from Leyline of Sanctity and Unmask, as they are proactive and mildly useful for some other matchups. Wouldn't board Leyline against Crypts though.
Firestorm has been pretty basic so far, giving me good results against Tribal decks and Zoo, where I had been having difficulties before, once they got a real sideboard with some real hate in it.
*doublepost*
soooooooooooooooo
Why is it better than Chain of Vapor?
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Because it prevents Relic / Crypt from removing your Graveyard? However it still feels weak compared to Claim as we need answers against broken Enchantments, playing around Crypt or Relic shouldn't be our biggest issue.
As for the combo mu: My board currently contains 4 Duress in the the Firestorm slot as my meta is infected with all sorts of combo, from Aluren over Spring Tide to TES and DDFANT. Sofar Duress has worked pretty well in combination with Therapy.
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If they are on the play game 2 you aren't countering their turn 1 relic/crypt with that card.. You're bouncing it at some point just like with CoV. Also, as it does nothing to leyline, I don't see it really being any better than Chain or Claim are for us.
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