I love this deck; it is quite good. I've been in (a great deal of) correspondence with Valtrix since last summer about this deck. It has been wonderful to see the deck unfold and playtest it. Love the primer. I agree with most of it. I disagree with you about some of the matchups though (I'll address that in a bit). Thanks for the hard work.
peace,
4eak
He wins with 4 Mishra's, 4 Bloodghast and 3 Tombstalkers. I'll test the match up some more and try to leave some useful feedback.Originally Posted by Mana Drain
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
I've been MIA for some time (due to silent protesting of survival's death and also because I've been moving house- huge hassle). We've gone through the benefits of intuition based vs more creatures/removal/counters in "normal" counter top. I find the power of intuition very significant. Of course my pile is slightly different from others. I respect the lists in the OP by Vantrix and Manadrain though my opinion differs on the pile choices. Big props to Manadrain for the heads up on this post.
I've been trying a somewhat non-fullblown intuition list. Or mini-intuition countertop if you like. I've found that I really miss the space for spell snares. I'm currently running a loam-coliseum pile. Like Manadrain and Valtrix have pointed out, maze has been somewhat disappointing. Anything sprouting wastelands/rishadan port can easily blow past it during a critical turn. Also, I've been liking the smoother curve that I've been testing though I'm giving up a lot of power. For those who want a list that is slightly less "clunky" but still retains the power of intuition-loam, give it a try:
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Force
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Jace TMS
2 Intuition
1 Life from the loam
4 STP
3 Firespout
4 Goyf
4 Misty
4 Tarn
1 Strand
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
This is a bare-bones version with all the card slots I'd run in normal counter-top except with the clique-intution swap. Loam + fetchlands + top is still game winning. You lose the power to lock up the board in the mid game with ee/shackles but the list helps you live to the mid game. I've found that I usually still win by locking up with Jace/countertop and that the "heavier" ways of locking through the intuition-loam engine to be fancy overkill. If you're having problems vs fast aggro, give this list a shot! I threw a coliseum in there because it is almost "invisible" in the manabase as it provides colored mana and replaces an island. It hurts like a ***** when you draw it early game but it makes U when you need it and can be the "mana open" for counterspell/top/spell snare. Also turns intuition into the bomb without clogging up space. Cheers!
I like the list. IntuitionCB plays very much like Supreme Blue already, and your list looks like it opts to play SupBlue, with the Intuition package for the stalled boards. I would love to play Spell Snare, but the MDs are extremely tight. Any reason for cutting EE/Ruins? For a Snare and a land, you turn Intuition into "Beat target CB Goyf or Landstill deck", while still locking up the game against most everything in the format with enough time. That is the only thing I disagree with in your list, as EE is just good on it's own as supplemental removal.
Also, I took the deck to my weekly Legacy Sunday today, but had to drop after my the fourth round (good dinner with family > store credit). I'll write up a small report shortly, to give people an idea on how the deck plays and functions.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
Yeah, I just bought a house so MTG is pretty low on my priorities right now too. I have a preference for smooth mana curves at the expense of greater raw power. IMO when playing normal counter top with 3 Jace, 4 top, 4 balance, It was gassy enough to beat aggro and mid range. Only trouble was in the mirror and against jacestill. Solution was: More gas, hence intution + bombs. After testing intuition + bombs against fast aggro, too much gas, so chop the not-so necessary down to the bare basics and I got the list above. The list is worse against the CB goyf and Jacestill, but it flows better vs faster decks so its a matter of the meta you are playing in. Also, spell snare isn't horrible vs CB goyf and Jacestill, just not as bomby. The 3rd snare is loose, so It could be an EE/ shackles. The basic mountain can also be an academy ruins. We don't have much slots to play with. I'm currently testing the stripped down version to see which bomb I miss the most. At the moment, I don't really miss either EE or shackles because superman (Jace) picks up so much slack as removal, CA and preemptive denial, it's crazy.
Btw, I'm looking forward to the report!
Report time! All right, I took IntuitionCB to my weekly Legacy tournament, with the exact same 75 in the primer with 2 Cliques for 2 Pierces. I find that I side in the Pierces only for Combo and Dredge, as I want other cards in for other matchups and the space to put in cards postboard is limited. Clique I find much better in control mirrors and also great against mid-range, so I went with them again. The metagame was: 1 Goblins, 3 Merfolk (I think all mono-U), 2 Zoo, 2 Rock (no Loam/Diamond), 1 ProBant, 1 Bant CB, 2 Tempo decks (TT and TA I think), 1 Trinket/CB/Painter deck (don't ask), 1 Supreme Blue, 1 Lands (43), 1 Dredge (LED), 1 Landstill (UWrg), 1 High Tide combo, 1 TES, and of course, my partner Jeremy playing IntuitionCB (Valtrix's list with different board, his first tournament with the deck). Needless to say, the people I play with aren't hurting of cash (unlike me and a Merfolk player). This was a good showing today, as everyone has been pumped since Survival was banned, ready to play a deck they like and feel comforatble playing. We were playing for $285 store credit ($15 entry) between the top 4, so the split was something like 1st-120, 2nd-75, 3rd-55, 4th-35. Everybody who attends is at least 16+, so we have a pretty mature crowd (a pleasant change from the Standard FNM) and we always have a good time. Usually, we have 3-4 of these credit tournaments with 14-20 people, and once a month or so we have a big prize tournament (last month was a foil Jace and 3 Goyfs I believe) with around 20+ people attending, so these are like our "fun/test" tournaments. By the way, this is my first time taking intensive notes during a tournament, and I'm not sure if it's legal, but I tell everyone I was doing it for a report and they were cool with it.
Round 1: Bant CounterTop (without NO/Prog)
G1: Of course I lose the die roll in the control mirror, but he mulls to 6 while I keep a legit hand of Top, StP, BS, 2x Fetch, Trop, and Intuition. He lays fetch, go. I draw a Goyf, drop Top, which gets Dazed. He drops his own Top and a fetch, go. I draw a Force, fetch Tundra, and drop Goyf. He EOT StPs it, and I don't Force. He untaps, doesn't drop a land, and goes for the CB, which gets met with Force. I untap, Intuition for Loam, EE, and Ruins, and he gives me Loam. He untaps, spins the top, draws, lays fetch, and ends. I untap, draw Top, Loam my 2 fetches and Ruins back, and drop Top. He draws, lays a fetch, cashes in his Top, cracks both fetches, and drops Jace, BSing and passing. I draw, spin the top and draw a BS, lay fetch and end. He draws, BSs with Jace, and drops RWM. EoT I recur EE after cracking the fetch. Untap, blow up Jace, pass. He draws, beats for 3 with RWM, and lays Goyf. I dredge Loam, play it, then BS into gas, drop Goyf, StP his, and end. He draws, StPs mine, and beats for 3. I recur ruins, lay it down for 3, and then drop CB. He scoops from their.
SB: -3 FS, -4 StP, -4 Goyf, +2 Pyro, +1 REB, +2 EE, +1 Ratchet, +1 Grip, +1 CS, +2 Clique, +1 Claim. Siding out Goyf may seem strange, but I wanted to try a different strategy against control and here's why: I don't expect to need a wall in this matchup, I don't want to be playing spells in my mainphase that aren't named Counterbalance or EE, I board in infinity removal for theirs, they'll have infinity removal for mine, and most importantly, he doesn't fit with the gameplan in this matchup: resolve Intuition, or resolve Jace. Doing either of the two without dieing the following turn should win it for you. For those who don't like this plan (most of you), keep the Goyfs and don't side in the Claim, CS, or Cliques.
G2: We both keep our 7, with mine as REB, Force, Intuition, Top, CB, and 2 lands. He drops land, go. I draw a fetch, drop it, and pass. He draws, lays Top, I Force pitching CB, he Pierces my Force, I REB his Pierce, he Forces my REB pitching his own Clique. That was epic. I draw, lay down my Top and a land, and end. He draws, drops land, and ends, while I spin the top. I draw Pyro, drop land, and pass. He draws, lays a land, and goes for CB, to which I Pyro, then EoT spin the Top. I draw a fetch, lay it down and end. He draws, cashes in his Top, plays a land and goes for Jace,, which resolves. EOT I go for Intuition with Daze mana, and it resolves, fetching the doom package, and he gives me Loam. I draw a CS, loam for 2 fetch and Ruins, lay Ruins, and end with 2 duals and Ruins untapped. He draws, BSs with Jace, and ends. EoT I recur EE. I drop EE at 4, he Spell Pierces, leaving me unable to pop EE, and I end. EOT he Grips my EE. He draws, BSs with Jace, and drops Goyf. I untap, draw a Shackles (of course), play it, and steal his Goyf, with a fetch open. He draws, bounces his Goyf, and ends. I recur EE on my upkeep, drop it for 2, and let it sit, with 2 mana open. He goes for EoT Clique, which gets stopped by CS. He draws, BSs with Jace, shakes his head and drops fetch, go. I crack my fetch at EoT and spin the Top to see Force, Jace, and BS, and draw the Jace. I untap, play the Jace, killing his, and end with 4 open. He draws, lays Goyf AND Pridemage, and I EoT crack EE, to which he blows up my Shackles. I untap, draw the BS, cash in Top for Loam, play Loam, get back 3 lands, then BS. I draw into Clique, EE, and Pyro, putting back 2 lands and dropping the 3rd fetch, lay down Top, end. He draws, drops CB, in response I Clique him, his only card is StP, which he uses, and let his CB resolve with 2 mana open for him. EoT I crack the fetch, spin Top, see Jace + Land + Grip, and stack Jace first. I draw, cash in Top for Grip, Grip his CB (he flips Goyf), and drop Jace, fatesealing my land away. He drops Goyf, go. I recur EE, drop it at 2, blow it, drop my Top, and fateseal my Claim away. He draws, plays Pridemage, and passes. I recur EE for the final time, blow up his Pridemage, and he extends his hand from there. I don't know if removing Goyf was right here, so use this strategy with caution.
Round 2: Merfolk (mono U)
G1: I mull to 5, on the play, keeping Goyf, Land, Land, StP, and Force. This is not good. I drop land, go. He drops Vial, and I shit bricks. I draw, drop land, and Goyf, which resolves (hoping to draw out Daze to avoid Standstill). He drops Muta, and of course, Standstill, and I lose shortly after. Oh well.
SB: -4 CB, -4 Force, -2 CS, +3 Blasts, +2 EE, +1 Ratchet, +1 FS, +2 Path, +1 Claim
G2: I draw infinity answers to his threat-light hand, and just roll him.
G3: I keep a 7 of REB, FS, EE, Path, Land, Fetch, Top. He leads with Needle for EE, go. I drop fetch, go. He draws, goes for the Standstill, and I Blast it. I draw, drop land and Top, end. He draws, drops Reerjay, with that and 3 Island on board. I draw Goyf, drop land, end. He draws, drops LoA, tapping my Tundra down, I float W for Path. I go for Path on LoA, and he has the Force, pitching Force (telling me he drew both AFTER the Standstill play). I take the 3, end. I spin the Top on upkeep, and see another EE and Land, draw the land, drop it and FS his team out. Swing for 4 with Goyf, go. He draws, drops Muta, end. I draw, see Claim for the Needle, draw it and swing for 4. He draws, thinks for a second, then drops Coralhelm. He pumps him to 2, and swings with Muta. EoT I spin the top, finding an StP. Draw, swing for 4, end. He draws, pumps coralhelm to 4, and swings with Muta and Coralhelm. I StP the Muta, go down to 8, EoT Claim the Needle. I spin the Top, seeing FS, untap, draw, swing with Goyf, and EE for 2, leaving the board clean. He draws, drops another Coralhelm, and pumps him to 3 counters. I spin the Top upkeep, see Goyf, drop FS, end. He draws, Plays Needle on Top (I cash it in) and ends. I drop Goyf, end. He draws, ends. I draw, find Ratchet, drop it, and swing for 5. He's at 8, draws, ends. I charge Ratchet Eot, draw land, swing, end. He draws, shows me the Standstill and 2 Dazes he drew, and extends the hand.
Round 3: The Rock (Bant, but with black instead of blue and Thoughtseize/Vindicate)
G1: I hate this deck. I win the roll, and mull to six keeping StP, Goyf, CS, CB, Land, Land. I drop land, go. He drops Bayou, Thoughtseize, stealing CB. I draw BS, drop land, end. He draws, drops Pridemage and I CS. I draw Fetch, play BS, drawing into StP, FS, and Top, putting back FS and Goyf. I drop fetch, Top, end. He draws, drops KotR, end. I draw my Goyf, StP his KotR, drop Goyf. He StPs the Goyf and passes. I spin the top at upkeep, find CB (of course), and win from their (leaving Intuition on top to stop his Vindicate next turn). Fuck yeah, CB!
SB: -3 FS, -3 Intuition, -1 Loam, +2 Path, +2 Clique, +1 EE, +1 Ratchet, +1 Claim
G2: I mull to 5 seeing straight jank, and he opens with Thoughtseize on my Top (my only gas), Wastes my Trop, and Extirpates it with a Goyf in my hand, followed by a Goyf of his own. I scoop.
G3: We both keep our 7, and I drop fetch, Island, Top, go. He drops fetch, go. I draw, drop CB (of course), and end. He draws Thoughtseizes me, and I cash in top to counter it. I draw my top, lay fetch, crack it for Island, play Top, BS, and put back Shackles on top of my deck. He untaps, plays land, and Vindicates the CB, which is met with Shackles flip. I spin top on upkeep, draw a Goyf, and drop it, leaving Shackles on top. He draws, plays Thoughtseize, which steals my StP, land, go. I don't spin the top on my upkeep, and before I draw he Grips the CB, which is met with the same Shackles flip. He dies a little inside, and scoops up his cards. Things rarely go this good for me against this deck, but chance was on my side today.
Round 4: Speed Zoo (Guides, Lynx, PoP, no KotR)
I know that I'm leaving after this round, so I scoop to him so is guaranteed T4, but I want to play it out for fun. He trades me out $15 in credit for the scoop because he knows he has a bad matchup and he's just a cool guy like that, allowing me to compensate for the entry fee.
G1: He blows me out with double Guide, Lynx, PoP, and 3 Burn spells. No chance against that draw.
SB: -3 Intuition, -1 Loam, -4 Force, +2 Path, +2 EE, +1 Claim, +1 FS, +1 Ratchet, +1 CS
G2: I have the Path for the T1 Guide, then drop CB. He goes for the Goyf, which gets blind-flipped by CS. I draw CS, lay land, end. He draws, lays Nacatl through the flip, end. I draw, lay land, Goyf. He swings with the Nacatl, tries to Bolt the Goyf, and I BS in response, flipping Top, and he scoops to that.
G3: I mull to 5, and take massive beat for the first 3 turns. I stabilize on T4 with CB/Top online, and am at 2 life after his next turn, with Guide, Lynx, and Lavamancer on the board. I spin the Top Eot, draw FS, sweep his team, end. He draws, thinks for a second, ends. I spin the top, drawing BS with a Shackles and Loam on top to stop for CB, end. EoT he goes for Blast on the CB, I cash in Top in response, counter the Blast, and he goes for PoP afterwards. I BS, show him the loam AND the Goyf I drew, and he submits to the power of CB. Luckily, this was just a fun match for him.
So, after this round I have to leave, and the Top 4 was: SpeedZoo (round 4), Lands (somehow beating the CB/Prog player 4th round), Supreme Blue, and of course, my boy Jeremy with IntuitionCB at 4th seed. He beats the SpeedZoo 2-0, only to lose to Lands in the finals. I don't know what the Lands player's secret tech was, but he beat 3 CB decks in a total of 6 rounds, only losing the TES player all day. I think he used a combination of Chalice, Confidant, Grips, his own recurring EE, and good mulling, which is actually pretty legit for a deck full of Lands.
I'm currently working on revamping the board, as I find SBing with this deck to be extremely difficult. Preparing exactly what cards you're siding in and out is a must. Maximizing the impact of all your cards and more importantly, having a good idea about what you're opponent is siding in against you while playing around their hate is no easy task .I do agree with Valtrix's stance on very little GY hate, as there just aren't many decks to care about who abuse the GY. Besides that, we can beat Dredge and Lands (at least, most of the time) with the cards we're already playing. Practice with this deck certainly pays off, and I don't suggest running in a tournament at the last minute (J had been playing this and working with me for about 2 weeks prior). The most important matchups to prepare for in my opinion are CBGoyf, Zoo, Bant, Tribal, and possibly Rock (maybe it's just me). For reference, J's board (using Valtrix's exact MD):
2 Path
2 Grim Lavamancer (J called it the MVP in the Tribal and mid-range matchups)
1 EE
1 Ratchet
1 Grip
1 Claim
2 Spell Snare
1 Crypt
1 Relic
3 Blasts
He said that Lavamancer either forcing the removal spell or just demolishing the other guys team/utility creatures was huge. Killing off Pridemage, Hierarch, the entire Tribal archetype, Confidant, Clique, Manlands, and making sure your Goyfs beat theirs is indeed solid. You get a lot of mileage and versatility out of one card using a free resource to us, and at the least, drawing out a removal spell otherwise aimed at a Goyf. I'm certainly going to be trying a pair out next week.
Take it easy all.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
I love the report. Great detail especially with regard to opening hands and lines of play. I'm not really sure if you should have been fatesealing yourself with Jace though. Even if you know you're next card is dead, usually I always fateseal the opponent if he is also in top deck mode. Also, is Force out vs folk a good idea? I'd only board it out against UB folk because I won't be expecting Back to Basics. That card is scary. I'd board out the intuitions honestly, as they're somewhat slow.
You're pile of death seems extremely strong/ relevant in you're first match. I noticed that it wasn't as apparent in the other matches. When in the midrange slugfest again countertop, intuition -> pile of death is so win, but in other MUs I feel that maybe it's a bit too heavy. It seems like pile of death is the way to go in you're meta. 8/20 of you're matchups are midrange ( 2 rock, probant, bant cb, Countertop painter, supreme blue, landstill, intuition countertop). Great job!
Btw I would like you're thoughts on nature's claim and ratchet bomb. IMO EE > ratchet, any reason for running it? Also, with survival out, isn't krosan grip more practical compared to claim? Cheers!
I never, ever fateseal myself unless one condition is met: my opponent has an active Top. In this case, my opponent had an active Top.
Siding out Force against Folk is something I've seen a lot of other blue players doing as well, as B2B just isn't that common. Furthermore, there are a couple different ways to remove B2B (Blasts, Claim, EE, Ratchet) and it's reletively easy to play around until you draw/find an answer with the basics. Force is just card-disadvantage against a deck with no real bombs other than Standstill, just a shitload of threats and counters. I'd rather side in more removal than open myself up to a Pierce/Daze on Force blowout. It's worked pretty well in both this deck and my Landstill decks.
You're quite right about Intuition being weak in the mid-range matchup. I side them and the Loam out against Rock, Bant (not CB), and Fast Zoo. Rock has Extirpate to punish your for Intuition, Zoo is just too fast and I want CB/Top more, and Bant has too many threats at different costs and Needles from them are much more common. I keep them in against Tribal because it's still a tutor for FS/Path/whatever or an endgame strategy that is good to have on our side. But if I have more cards to side in against Tribal than I do cards to side-out, I'll take out a few Intuitions. Against Control (CB/Landstill), Tempo (TT/TA/Faeries), Combo and Other (Dredge, Lands, randomenss) it's almost always a "if you don't kill me/lock me out now, I'm going to win the game" card. Intuition isn't always stellar, and if I find it to be less-useful than SB cards, I side it out. It's just one engine of the deck. When Intuition out of the picture, we're playing Supreme Blue with less chaff, which I'm perfectly fine with.
For what it's worth, I don't consider Intuition to be a focal-point of the deck. I think that your list illustrates exactly where I'm coming from: A supplemental engine among a host of already-amazing cards, that has the potential to put the game out of reach for the other player if circumstances are correct. If it's not an endgame card, it's a tutor for whatever you have 3-of in your deck. If it's too slow/risky (Rock, ProBant, SpeedZoo), take them out for something better.
And in hindsight, I'm pretty sure it was a bad idea to take out ALL of the Goyfs against BantCB. Possibly taking out 1-2 if you have THAT MANY cards that are amazing in this matchup is okay, but I don't suggest it. Goyf is just that amazing, and he's another 2 drop to bait Snares/fill the CB curve.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
@Mana Drain:
I read that in 11 games you have taken four mulligans, three of which down to five cards: what caused you to mulligan this much (about one third of the time)?
Did you look for better hands in concern of your opponent or were you forced by mana light hands?
Btw, great thread: I appreciate very much your work (referring also to ivanpei and Valtrix).
Cheers.
All but one of my mulls that day was because I knew what my opponents were playing, and wanted a better hand for against that specific deck. For instance, one of my mulls to 5 against Merfolk I believe I had something like 3 land, Intuition, Jace, Firespout, and EE, which is pretty solid against CB/Control/midrange, but is too slow and not relevantl enough for me to keep that hand against dudesandcounters.dec. Against Rock, I knew not to keep a hand that had very little gas or was very mana-light, as a T1 Thoughtseize can turn a possibly-great hand into a much weaker one in a hurry. Against Zoo, keeping a hand without solid early defense or a CB/Top is too risky. The only mull I regret is the one in the first game against Folk, because I probably could have played with the Standstill, taking the beats from his Muta and friends until an EoT Intuition led me into StPs, followed by FS. I more than likely would have lost against his draw regardless though.
I only had one hand all day that was unkeepable, and that was like 5 lands, Goyf, and StP or something. Everything else was pretty much playable, but I had the extremely beneficial advantage of knowing what my opponents play and how to beat their decks. More importantly than that, knowing how their decks beat mine and how to avoid blowout scenarios. Unfortunately, this is Magic, and blowouts do happen regardless of what hands you keep (like in the first game against Zoo). Thankfully, a few of them were from my side of the table instead of theirs.
If I was playing in the same tournament with little metagame knowledge (rare if you are scouting, which you should be), I probably would have kept ~2 more hands than I mulled. Practicing just shows you which hands will get their and which hands won't. Knowing what the other dude is playing is so beneficial when playing blue, it's like cheating.
Regarding your last comment, my pleasure. I'm glad a few people are checking this thread out.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
Oops, I missed the part earlier in the paragraph when you mentioned that he dropped a top, in that situation, you are right, fatesealing yourself is the best play. I'm still on the keep forces in vs folk wagon though. A lot of games revolve around resolving the allmighty firespout. Having the free counter to make sure it sticks is IMO pretty important. On goyfs out, I think taking out 2 is ok, but taking out 4 is a bit much. I agree with keeping 2 in as it makes sure you see a wincon when you have active balance-top. Keeping 4 in, means you are likely to draw one (and having the goyf go farming) before cbalance-top softlock.
I love the intuition engine, don't get me wrong. Pre Jace, I would say that it would be the best supplemental engine to go. However Jace and counter-top, you have 2 engines and intuition is the 3rd Engine. When I was playing it, I felt like the 3rd supplementary engine should have minimal effect on my quick, flexible MD answers. This was very apparent when I was playing against TES and stuff like enchantress. The clunkiness of the deck was severely exposed by the fact that TES and enchantress go off before the engines can be set up. Since trimming the fat of the intuition engine and adding 3 snares, my MUs vs combo MUs have improved. Of course, my attrition capabilities are greatly diminished.
Hey guys, thread looks awesome. Amazing job with the primer, Mana Drain.
4c Countertop has been the deck that I've played the most in Legacy and just thought I'd drop in to raise a few questions as well as offer a few suggestions.
As people have already stated, the manabase does look really unstable on Mana Drain's build and I'm liking Valtrix's a little more with the whole basic forest/plains thing going on.
Also really like the Loam/EE/Academy Ruins lock this deck has going but how does the Loam dredge affect the variance of this deck? Yeah, you have top in the deck but it would really suck if a Jace got dredged away.
This sounds pretty greedy but have you guys considered opening up a slot for Karakas? Karakas serves as an out to the occasional Show & Tell decks with the added bonus of having synergy with Vendilion Cliques post game one. The applications with Loam seems pretty amenable but the slots are already pretty tight. Perhaps cut a fetchland or the shackles? Put it in the side?
Thanks.
Would you say my manabase is unstable then too? And if so, what would you suggest?
Well, if you have a top, Jace, or brainstorm, this variance is significantly less. Dredging jace can suck, but it happens. But its unlikely that a dredge is going to lose you a game besides from just changing the cards you would draw. That is, I don't think you'll lose a game because the dredged cards are "no longer part of your deck." Loam, by far, has many more positive interactions with the deck.Also really like the Loam/EE/Academy Ruins lock this deck has going but how does the Loam dredge affect the variance of this deck? Yeah, you have top in the deck but it would really suck if a Jace got dredged away.
I think as an "out to Show and Tell" decks is a pretty awful reason to play the card, since it's probably unlikely that the singleton against the specific deck will come up that much. So, first you need to first have this card during a game with them, then not have them put something like progenitus into play, and not be able to stop them any other way (Jace their Emrakul, counterspell, etc.). While I haven't tested the matchup, I'd probably be okay going against it because of the number of counterspells we run. As for Vendilion, it's a somewhat cute interaction, but I always felt it was particularly weak for how infrequently it gets set up (especially if Cliques are in the board). Now, I'm not necessarily opposed to running another land (I think the 23rd could be useful...Maybe as a 61st card), but I'd probably rather just have a tundra, since the ability to produceThis sounds pretty greedy but have you guys considered opening up a slot for Karakas? Karakas serves as an out to the occasional Show & Tell decks with the added bonus of having synergy with Vendilion Cliques post game one. The applications with Loam seems pretty amenable but the slots are already pretty tight. Perhaps cut a fetchland or the shackles? Put it in the side?is likely to be more relevant than bouncing legendary creatures.
Did the BantCB played the exalted guys? If not I think you've made the correct choice. I explain myself: if they play the exalted package they probably will side their spot removal out because they've figured out that your only creature is goyf but theirs are better. If, however, they don't run exalted they'll need the StP to break your goyf-walls, since they should play aggressive having more creatures than you and fearing your EE lock.
In the first case your goyfs aren't much relevant until you hit the pile of death to control the board.
In the second case your goyfs will eat their StP (I doubt they'll counter them except if they're in a pinch) since you cannot afford to counter their spot removal and you will have to wait CB to protect them.
In both cases, when you should afford to land a goyf you should already walk the path to victory but, in the latter, siding out all of your goyfs makes their spot removal dead cards.
Obviously I don't know the build you were playing against so this is mere speculation, but in general i always like to left my opponents with dead cards in their decks.
Cheers.
PS: what are, in your opinion, the MU in which goyfs are absolutely necessary (leaving alone that they're almost always awesome)?
Hi!
First of all: Nice deck, nice primer and nice tournament report!
Against the Countertop Bant player you´ve made the following move:
If i understand that right you tapped the Top and dredged the Loam. Then the Top was put on top of your library and you played brainstorm. But how can you draw Clique, EE, and Pyro with it? Where´s the Top?I untap, draw the BS, cash in Top for Loam, play Loam, get back 3 lands, then BS. I draw into Clique, EE, and Pyro, putting back 2 lands and dropping the 3rd fetch, lay down Top, end.
Our pleasure my good man.Hey guys, thread looks awesome. Amazing job with the primer, Mana Drain.
I cannot stress enough to play the manabase you're comfortable with. Mine is definitely more greedy and fragile to Wastelock, Choke, B2B, Moons and the like, but I enjoy having all my lands tap for blue. It's my personal play consideration that I've made and prefer. Valtrix's is certainly more resielient in the face of major non-basic hate, and the basics can be a great benefit at times. Please, play the manabase that fits your goals and what you feel is safer. Valtrix's is certainly the former.As people have already stated, the manabase does look really unstable on Mana Drain's build and I'm liking Valtrix's a little more with the whole basic forest/plains thing going on.
With Tarmogoyf MD, we have a total of 8 win-conditions, plus 3 Intuitions to find them. Valtrix covered this above me well.Also really like the Loam/EE/Academy Ruins lock this deck has going but how does the Loam dredge affect the variance of this deck? Yeah, you have top in the deck but it would really suck if a Jace got dredged away.
Again, Valtrix covered this pretty well. It's just to random to hope to find it against the one deck where you want it. The combo with Clique is cool, but not worth playing a non-basic Plains for in my opinion. If we played Ponder, it could be a consideration. Otherwise, keep it in the board if you expect Emrakul decks to be showing up (SnT, Doomsday).This sounds pretty greedy but have you guys considered opening up a slot for Karakas? Karakas serves as an out to the occasional Show & Tell decks with the added bonus of having synergy with Vendilion Cliques post game one. The applications with Loam seems pretty amenable but the slots are already pretty tight. Perhaps cut a fetchland or the shackles? Put it in the side?
I believe he runs 2-3 Pridemage MD and the full set of Hierarchs. Siding out a few Goyfs instead of all of them was probably the correct decision. I was expecting Grips, Pierces, and extra Paths from him, so I didn't quite know Goyfs relevance postboard. Regardless, I'm glad somebody is on a similar page of logic as I. Thanks for the consideration.Stuff about Goyf being SBed out
You want the set in: Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk (Make sure LoA stays off the board/dies), Combo (for the clock), any type of mid-range aggro (Rock, Bant), Affinity. Really, against anything that isn't a control deck, keep them in. Against Landstill I like to SB them out because those decks run so much removal that they can't SB it all out, and CB isn't expected to live very long here (their EEs, Grips, Blasts, Extirpates, etc). Against CB, make your own decisions based on how many cards you want to SB in. If possible, leave them in as they're just that good.PS: what are, in your opinion, the MU in which goyfs are absolutely necessary (leaving alone that they're almost always awesome)?
AceofSpades, excellent spot there. I don't have my notes still, but this is undoubtedly a play error on my part, and one my opponent didn't catch either. I more than likely put the Top on my deck before I dredged Loam back, putting Top in the graveyard. I'm pretty sure I had drawn a dead Top earlier that I was holding on to in my hand, and just didn't notice that I now only have one. I don't think I blatantly returned it to my hand, but that's very well possible too. I only know this because I've done it before, in almost exactly the same situation. In a major tournament, I probably would have gotten a game-loss for that. Thankfully, my opponent didn't catch it either, although it was a pretty dramatic play error.
This isn't setting a good example through play, but I do make mistakes, and the vast, vast majority of them come from cashing in Top. It's a really bad habit, and is exacerbated by my ADD. I've put it in the GY instead of on top of my deck multiple times before, and have also straight put it into my hand from play also. I think I'll write in silver Sharpie "PUT ME ON TOP OF THE DECK IDIOT" on my set. I'm pretty absent minded when it comes to small details that are significant, and it has cost me plenty of games in the past. I should be getting back on 20mgs a day of Adderall XR this week though, hopefully that will help my lack of attention with these things. Again, great eye for detail. Try not to repeat my mindless mistakes! ;)
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I remember giving some suggestions to Valtrix on PM about this deck during summer and I'm impressed what the two of you came up with. This is probably my favorite CB list around because it has a solid early game and an overwhelming lategame. The primer is extremely complete and informative. Kudos!
The one thing I'd like to criticize is your estimation of Jace against Zoo and similar decks. In my experience (admittedly, I usually play non-CB control with him, see sig) Jace is actually incredible against Zoo. If you ever get to stabilize the board, which is kind of assumed because otherwise you're dead, Jace is like an instant nail in the coffin. You drop him and ramp him. If they burn him out now, they probably never get back into the game because they just blew their reach. If they don't, he can usually fateseal them out in short order, which means they really don't have any good options left. Maybe I transpose too much of my experience in a different deck onto this one, but taking him out against Zoo (or really anywhere but against combo) just seems so very wrong to me.
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During a couple of games playtesting with a zoo player, I dropped jace and he had to burn him for 8 poitns of damage (after my counter on 1 Bolt) because he could not win if I ever get another turn with Jace. That 8 points of damage is almost 1/2 my total life in this matchup (assuming I lost 2 life to FoW/Fetches the entire course of the game).
I would totally play a 2UU spell that saved 1/2 my life, and win me games if they cannot deal with it. I still lost that game however since he had a Sylvan Library to keep the gas coming, but imagine if he blew 2-3 cards to deal with Jace, then you proceed to deal with his board since you survived 2-3 turns because of the burn that Jace took out. I used to think Jace sucked against Zoo due to their huge pressure, but you need him, to buy turns, and to lock them out if you are in a slightly-good position. Once Jace survives and starts fate-sealing, it becomes hard for Zoo to win (this is true in general, but Zoo doesn't recover from that position as other decks do e.g. Merfolks, Goblins, SDT.dec).
I'm thinking: right now almost all the decks, excluding ANT and Merfolk (the latter at least not in the MD), are packing some degree of creature removals. The low count of this deck creatures, makes the goyfs a must target (they almost always are), but most of all the presence of goyfs legitimates the opponent's removals. I feel that if goyf is dropped early in the game will eat a removal (or we'll have to trade 1-2 with FoW), and if we wait to grasp the control of the board we should win anyway.
Wouldn't be nice to leave our opponent's with 4-6 dead cards in their decks?
My question is: can the deck live without goyfs but maintaining the Intuition engine?
I saw this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...nterTop-Walker) and I'm thinking if those two deck can be merged leaving the strong short and long plan of the Intuition CounterTop and using the planeswalker to win. I came up with this list, although it's enver been tested:
//Lands (23)
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
//Spells (38)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Intuition
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path of Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Life From the Loam
3 Firespout
Basically, I've cut out the goyfs for the predicts and Elspeth, and I've added a land according to this (jumping to 61 cards MD).
Please, I would like to know what you people think of my arguments and, eventually, what changes you'll do to the list.
I'm open to your criticism.
Now, I think you can play the(/a similar) deck by not playing goyfs and win. However, I think that not running goyfs makes you a worse deck. I think that a lot of people overvalue the usefulness of "having no creatures to make your opponent have dead cards." First, this is only true for game 1--After that every deck will be bringing out dead cards for useful cards, which negates this "bonus". Now think about all the games you've played. How often do you stare down that goyf or knight of the reliquary with no removal in hand and just shake your head as it kills you? This can happen to your opponent very easily. Everybody says decks are "running removal," but if you look at most decks that means swords, and usually little if anything else. While your opponent can answer your creature, it's also pretty likely that they can't. And if they can't answer your goyf? Well, you either have a fast clock, or the best wall that likely stops several creatures from killing you. Even if I trade a goyf for a swords sometimes, I'm fine with that, because if it's not dealt with it will be a huge board presence. And since you're only running 4 creatures it can even be likely that you don't get one, or that you get one after your in control of the game. In that case, you negated your opponent's removal anyway.
In terms of win-conditions, I think you need more than just planeswalkers and intuition to win the game, because walkers can be very slow and awkward to play at 4 mana. Goyf also plays a very important role for counterbalance, because after balance itself he's your best 2cc, and if you really look at the card pool this type of deck doesn't have a lot of choices for things it could and would want to run that cost 2cc.
I completely agree that Jace is fantastic against zoo. This deck is built to handle zoo regardless of Jace, so getting Jace out there to make their draws even worse will often give you the game. He doesn't necessarily prevent you from losing, but if you're even a little bit behind he almost always dramatically swings the game in your favor.
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