[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

[ivanpei]

Storm combo will be very popular due to survival so UWg thopthers is my current meta deck of choice. Bridge-> Survival. Thopters murders storm combo too. Its also excellent vs fast aggro. SB I'm playing tarmogoyf plan to dodge all the damn needles and grips floating around.

Goyfs in board have been working for me. Everyone boards out removal. Never cut brainstorm. It is the BEST card in anything blue. I've gone down to the 2/1 split because the combo sucks against blue and survival. Having lots of components means u draw the components early but if one thopther gets countered/destroyed u get stuck with a (or 2) useless sword(s). It's card disadvantage. Against decks without artifact/ enchantment hate like gobbos/ folk, landing moat/bridge is GG anyway. You're main concern is dealing with opposing blue decks and stuff like md pridemage.

That's where having 3 spell snares and 2 counterspells are useful. Jace is also the bomb in the blue mirror, also once you have the lock down, he is a win condition/ prevents opponents drawing grip/ pridemage. I've cut red from my list for mana stability and am playing the 22nd land. Lots of wastelands running around esp in survival.

[grahf]

I've updated the opening post of this thread with a primer that Pippo84 sent me months ago. Sorry for not posting it earlier, dude, I kinda fell off the face of the earth for a bit and lost interest in magic for a while. But I'm back now.

Is this deck still even relevant? I hope so. What we still really need to complete the primer are objective matchup analyses written by competent players (i.e. not me).

[ivanpei]

Nice job on the primer! Credit goes out to pippo too! I would have to say that I have tested this deck a fair bit and have a few conclusions:

Pros:

-Awesome against anything aggro. Sticking moat/bridge= GG, alternatively, humility/firespouts also destroy aggro.
-Very versatile. Having 4 tutors allow sideboard cards to be diverse yet able to be searched out consistently by enlightened tutor.
-Virtual CA in having no dudes, dead STPs are golden.
-Countertop/Jace are robust CA engines that make the deck pretty formidable in the blue/control mirror PREBOARD (will cover this in cons)
-Great vs storm combo, countertop + 4 tutors? Excellent. Lack of clock is an issue, but usually with limited MD answers to countertop preboard, you should be ok.
-Munches venges with ensnaring bridge against UG. Against WG, answering survival and dropping ensnaring bridge is also pretty easy.
-Can run high amount of basics.

Cons:
-SUCKS against grip/counters/duress/relevant cards postboard. Enlightened tutor is auto card disadvantage. The thopther combo is also terrible if the other component gets answered.
-Landstill rapes you like a bitch with deed/more jaces/ more counters/ laughs at your moat and bridge.
-Slow as a turtle in winning. Can go to time very often. Drawing is annoyingly common.


I address the weaknesses by playing the 2/1 split and more counterspells (snare) and jaces (3) MD for more CA, sacrificing a little bit in the aggro MU where you are already very strong. I then play this board:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

I like the man plan board and just 3 colours as you are more stable with your mana though I miss REB and firespouts at times. I also almost always board out the enlightened tutors (and crap bullets) and thopther combo for the man plan. Sure this does not turn off my opponents anti-enchantment/artifact cards which can still hit top and balance but thats fine. Those are 1 for 1 trades that are not as disastrous as popping a lock piece (which you tutored for and are dependent on) EOT with grip and alpha striking. Also top and balance are excellent cards even when stand alone without the other. Removal will definitely be going out for components so a quick goyf may catch opponents off guard and win you games. Man plan also quickens your clock if you lost G1. Without the man plan, if you lose G1, you are unlikely to win G2 and G3 in time. Cheers!

[mulder]

I was wondering if Thirst for Knowledge would be worth a try.
It fills up the 3 mana gap, generates card advantage and cycles excess Tops and Counterbalances.

And isn't Spell Snare better than Counterspell? I think you need a first turn counter against Goyfs, Pridemages, Confidants, Survivals, ... . Plus, on your turn two you'll probably want to cast a Counterbalance.

[ivanpei]

TFK was tried and cut I believe. 3 Mana to dig 3 cards and generate CA 50% of the time is not good enough.

@ Snare vs counterspell. They both do different things. Snare is a great card, but I will run max 3, sometimes you draw multiples when you're opponents bombs are not 2cc like natural order, jace, show and tell, ad nauseum etc. Having a split is therefore a wiser idea. I've been playing a 2-2 split for the longest time, but now I'm playing 3 snares, 2 counterspells due to survival seeing a lot of play and the format speeding up in order to adapt to survival.

[rooneg]

Played this at a small tournament today. Thought I'd leave a report for the curious. First the decklist:

4 Counterbalance
4 Divining Top
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

23 land (w/ two tropicals and 1 volcanic for firespout and goyf in the board)

Sideboard was:

4 Goyf
3 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle

When I say small, I mean small. 14 people, so 4 rounds of swiss and cut to top 4. Maybe half the decks were real legacy decks, half jank people had lying around.

match 1 - 80 card vampires jank

I'm pretty sure this was his first tournament of any kind. Stabilized quickly in both games (with Firespout assistance in game 2) and got there with Elspeth.

match 2 - aggro elves

Won 2-1. Took the first game with a flying Elspeth token after countering and swordsing a bunch of elves. He rolled right over me in the second (didn't draw any of the three Firespouts). Got the Firespout in game 3 and Jace's ultimate finished him.

match 3 - G/W vengvine survival

This was my friend Sam, who was actually loaning me the two Jaces I was using. He took both games in short order, I have no idea how to beat this deck, vengvine is just too good.

match 4 - burn

Went 2-1, these were the only games in which I actually assembled the thopter/swords combo, life gain plus lots of little flyers is good against burn.

Cut to top 4...

match 5 - G/W vengvine survival

Sam again. A repeat of match 3. Still haven't figured out how to beat this. Maybe the DCI will solve the problem for me.

I ended up in 4th, $25 bucks for my trouble (minus the $10 entry fee, of course). I now have a perfect 2 and 0 record at this shop, every time I play there I make the cut to the elimination rounds and then lose to Sam ;-)

Some conclusions:

4 Planeswalkers is probably too many. Next time I'll play 2 or 3. Oddly I liked Elspeth better than Jace most of the time. Back to Basics maindeck wound hopefully be better in a more developed metagame. As it was I wish I'd put the oblivion ring in that slot. The transformational sideboard was a total waste, the plan was to put in Goyfs if the opponent was likely siding out removal, but I never actually had that happen.

[The Treefolk Master]

Sam again. A repeat of match 3. Still haven't figured out how to beat this. Maybe the DCI will solve the problem for me.
.

Play peacekeeper, it auto wins if you can protect it from removal against versions running white, and against UG is an auto win.

[ivanpei]

Hmm, how exactly did he beat you? I don't think it's that hard of a MU. I find that countertop thopthers is actually one of the better decks against veges. I play moat though and 3 Jaces along side bridge. I usually look for bridge G1 and it just wrecks them. My G1 strategy is to ignore his creatures. Build up protection for the bridge (either with countertop/force) and tutor for the bridge. You can drop a snare here or a swords there to slow his clock. Once you drop bridge, protect it (no grips G1 and you play a ton of counters) and win with Jace/ thopther.

G2 is slightly more tricky. I play with goyfs from the board too and war monks. I also have paths in the board instead of firespouts (I play UWg) so I have a good MU vs veges. Save you're exile effects for the veges and just wall of goyf/ goyf stomp them out of the game while keeping survival off the board. You're cards outclass their pound for pound and you should win it if played right. Hope this helps! My list for reference:

MD
4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Enlightened
4 STP
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Moat
1 Bridge
1 EE
2 Thopther
1 Sword
3 Jace TMS

4 Strand
4 Misty
1 Heath
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy
5 Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

Boarding plan vs survival:
- 4 Tutors
- 2 Thopter
- 1 Sword
- 1 Moat
- 1 Bridge
- 4 Balance

+ 4 Tarmo
+ 2 Rhox
+ 2 Path
+ 2 Pierce
+ 1 Needle
+ 2 Grip

Their grips will be targeting tops mostly as that's the only thing to hit. You should have squeezed a couple of activations out of top already to make it worth while. They're investing 3 mana to wreck a 1 mana artifact too, so its beneficial to you if they grip it. Basically just counter/shoot everything down, drop a fatty and pound their ass into dust old school. All you're cards are active (no dead combo components, card disadvantage from tutors etc) AND you have 3 Jaces so you will come out on top in the card advantage slugfest. They're stuck with basking rootwallas, wild mongrels and terribad cards while you have quality threats and answers. WG is harder but you should be able to fight them pound for pound. Saving the swords/path is crucial. Only use them for KOTRs/venges if you can.

[ivanpei]

Hmm, how exactly did he beat you? I don't think it's that hard of a MU. I find that countertop thopthers is actually one of the better decks against veges. I play moat though and 3 Jaces along side bridge. I usually look for bridge G1 and it just wrecks them. My G1 strategy is to ignore his creatures. Build up protection for the bridge (either with countertop/force) and tutor for the bridge. You can drop a snare here or a swords there to slow his clock. Once you drop bridge, protect it (no grips G1 and you play a ton of counters) and win with Jace/ thopther.

G2 is slightly more tricky. I play with goyfs from the board too and war monks. I also have paths in the board instead of firespouts (I play UWg) so I have a good MU vs veges. Save you're exile effects for the veges and just wall of goyf/ goyf stomp them out of the game while keeping survival off the board. You're cards outclass their pound for pound and you should win it if played right. Hope this helps! My list for reference:

MD
4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Enlightened
4 STP
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Moat
1 Bridge
1 EE
2 Thopther
1 Sword
3 Jace TMS

4 Strand
4 Misty
1 Heath
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy
5 Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle

Boarding plan vs survival:
- 4 Tutors
- 2 Thopter
- 1 Sword
- 1 Moat
- 1 Bridge
- 4 Balance

+ 4 Tarmo
+ 2 Rhox
+ 2 Path
+ 2 Pierce
+ 1 Needle
+ 2 Grip

Their grips will be targeting tops mostly as that's the only thing to hit. You should have squeezed a couple of activations out of top already to make it worth while. They're investing 3 mana to wreck a 1 mana artifact too, so its beneficial to you if they grip it. Basically just counter/shoot everything down, drop a fatty and pound their ass into dust old school. All you're cards are active (no dead combo components, card disadvantage from tutors etc) AND you have 3 Jaces so you will come out on top in the card advantage slugfest. They're stuck with basking rootwallas, wild mongrels and terribad cards while you have quality threats and answers. WG is harder but you should be able to fight them pound for pound. Saving the swords/path is crucial. Only use them for KOTRs/venges if you can.

[(nameless one)]

I wanna put this deck back together but I have limited budget. I have most of the cards (from FoW to Strands) except for Super Jace, Moat and Duals. I have substituted Tundras with basic lands (heavily relying on fetchlands, running 9) and Moat with Humilty/Ensaring Bridge

What is a good alternative/substitute for Super Jace? I recently got 2 Elspeth vs. Tezzeret DDs. Would they be a good alternative or would that screw the curve? I was also thinking of using Goblin Charbelcher on its place as a means of win condition/creature removal.

Any suggestions?

[obituary 95]

elspeths are goood alt win cons. i would avoid belcher though it just seems bad

[Mana Drain]

With Survival out of the meta, I think this deck is going to become a serious force.
My current list with my SB still shaky due to the unknown meta ahead (my prediction is heavy aggro, some CB, and some Storm as the main opposition):

4 Strand
3 Tarn
2 Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Academy Ruins
3 Island
1 Plains

4 BS
4 Force
4 CB
4 Top
4 Tutor
4 Swords
3 Big Blue Boss Man
3 Daze (I like it more than Predict for early game interactivity, but Predict is a perfectly acceptable choice also)
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword
1 Shackles
1 EE
1 Crucible
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat

SB:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Firespout
2 Grips
1 Oring
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Prog
1 Needle
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Vendilion Clique (MVP against anything not-aggro)

Pretty standard, although I don't see many lists with Daze. I've found it invaluable against other CB decks, Zoo, Merfolk, and Storm. I mean really, turns 1-3 it's a free counterspell. It gives you the extra "push" to force through an important spell in the early-game, and is a blue two-drop. I don't feel this deck needs a "draw engine" like Predict, off of the sheer fact that this deck is inherently full of card disadvantage, and no card can make up for that. So I'd rather make sure my important spells resolve (like CB and Jace), rather than try and draw 2.

Also, Clique in the board has been straight hotness. A preemptive answer to Grip/Extirpate, peeks at their hand, a clock (albeit a slow one), another 3 drop for the curve, and randomly trades with a dude once in a while. I highly suggest a pair in the board for anyone who is worring about Grip. Not an answer, but it will always take the best thing they have in the hand.

[JonBarber]

3 Daze (I like it more than Predict for early game interactivity, but Predict is a perfectly acceptable choice also)

Pretty standard, although I don't see many lists with Daze. I've found it invaluable against other CB decks, Zoo, Merfolk, and Storm. I mean really, turns 1-3 it's a free counterspell. It gives you the extra "push" to force through an important spell in the early-game, and is a blue two-drop.

Definitely disagree with this. I think this should be counterspell. This deck is in no way a tempo deck, and your land drops are extremely important. Besides, this deck is all about the late game. Daze is terrible after turn 3, especially when your doing nothing to their mana base. Counterspell is hard counter that never stops being good.

[say no to scurvy]

how viable is this without moat? i've been searching a while and found an italian list that top4ed a 31-man tourney

4 x flooded strand 
4 x scalding tarn 
4 x island 
1 x plain 
1 x mountain 
3 x tundra 
2 x volcanic island 
1 x tropical island 
1 x academy ruins 
1 x seat of the synod 
2 x vendilion clique 
4 x sensei's divining top 
4 x counterbalance 
2 x spell snare 
4 x swords to plowshares 
2 x firespout 
1 x oblivion ring 
1 x vedalken shackles 
2 x jace the mind sculptor
2 x thopter foundry 
1 x sword of the meek 
4 x brainstorm 
3 x enlightened tutor 

SIDE: 
2 x sower of temptation 
2 x red elemental blast 
1 x pyroblast 
1 x firespout 
2 x spell pierce 
1 x tormod's crypt 
1 x engineered explosives
1 x pithing needle 
2 x relic of progenitus 
1 x ethersworn canonist 
1 x humility

[Frid]

I posted in the countertop thread some days ago, didn't know even there was a specific one for countertop thopters. I'll just copy paste:


I won a 35 man tournament with the following list I've been performing during the last month:


// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
7 [B] Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Spells
3 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
2 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip


It's a new focus for thopters in legacy, using as the core of the deck 4 intuitions, instead of the typical disadvantage enlightened tutors that have been used in thopters decks during the past year. The list has a plenty of tricks/cards interactions (ITF style), and a really solid manabase. If anyone is interested in my card choices/deck strategies/whatever I would be glad to discuss about it. I have done a report but it's in spanish, you can use google translator if you want and if something remains unclear just ask about it: http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpB...hp?f=12&t=3735
Greetz

[ivanpei]

I like this list. I find it interesting. I'll do a bit of Enlightened vs intuition pro and cons.

Enlightened Pros and Cons:
- Enlightened fetches 1-offs like moat, pithing needle, engineered explosives and ensnaring bridge, which intuition cannot do. This is inherently powerful.
- Enlightened is much cheaper to cast but has built in card disadvantage.
- Enlightened tutor is very strong with counterbalance because it stacks cards on top beautifully and can be used later in the game as somewhat of a counterspell.

Intuition Pros and Cons:
- No card disadvantage. Looks for non-enchantments and artifacts specifically FOW in a bind or life from the loam for an alternate engine.
- Slow as hell. I play intuition countertop and I run 2, I can't imagine running 4.
- Intuition works with less than 3 sword of the meek by tutoring cheap artifacts in the pile. Even if they give you the cheap artifact, just cast it and sac it to thopther, getting sword back anyway.

Interesting but ultimately IMO, intuition is better against slower control matchups when the card disadvantage of enlightened hurts but in other MUs, you want enlightened because it is quicker and can look for silver bullets effectively. I've been addressing the CA problem of enlightened by siding them out totally for goyfs and other good cards in the board for the control matchup. This is an interesting take on countertop thopthers but I think you forgot that playing intuition also makes your deck extremely vulnerable to grave hate. Both your loam engine and thopther combo have trouble against any form of gravehate. You will be very likely to be blown out by it after board. My 2 cents.

[Frid]

My version is neither graveyard nor intuition dependant, because it was built with that intention. I run as few "utilities" for loam as I can, and the ones I run are excellent cards on their own, like maze of ith, vedalken shackles, explosives, dust bowl... And you can easilly play around graveyard hate having 2 sword of the meek, and saving loam from being removed with brainstorms and tops. And of course you can just avoid playing around graveyard, because the deck isn't graveyard dependant at all, it uses the graveyard as an useful tool to win matches by tutoring and recurring lands and artifacts but it does not rely on it in every match if you don't want. See how I played 4 relics in my sb with no problem.
Speaking about relic of progenitus, it's a card that gives them their card back, but I love when people side in crap like tormod's crypt or extirpate against me, because it's like they're playing the round with one card less ;).
Nearly in every round I faced graveyard hate, when it was relic I just had to adapt a bit my gameplan until my opponent saw the relic was doing nothing and cracked it, and when it was tormod's crypt or extirpate it was like my opponent was playing with one extra mulligan. Cards that hurt much more the strategy of the deck are cheap hard counters that make you very hard to win counterwars, like pyroblast, dispel or even spell pierce.
It's true that aggro decks are the harder ones to beat, but tutorable peacekeepers solve completely the problem against merfolk, with should be terrible easy post sb, and I'm working on a tech to beat goblins and zoo post sb, as the match is 50-50 preboard but with my actual sb postboard it gets better for them.

[Cenarius]

Let me present my take on Countertop Thopter UWR. I’m a Threshold-player from origin, playing Tempo Threshold for a long time now. Before that I played Countertop (or Threshold as it was called back then).

I believe this deck is insane. This is how control should look like in 2010/2011. Landstill isn't viable anymore with an abundance of Vial-decks in the metagame. This deck is all about card quality, even so that card disadvantage (in the form of Enlightened Tutor) deals no damage to the deck. But heck, we all knew that already. So, let me proceed with an actual decklist.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell / Spell Pierce (Counterspell is slightly the favorite here)
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Firespout

3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thopther Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Moat

2 Open slot: currently 1 Ensnaring Bridge, can be Shackles aswell but I found that to be not as good as I hoped. I usually just go Enlightened Tutor to Moat in (nearly) all creature matchups. Ensnaring Bridge and Shackles are therefore not really needed, in my opinion. The other open slot is Firespout. Oblivion Ring might be good aswell, here.

4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard

Combo Matchups
3 Spell Pierce (+ control matchups)
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Agro Matchups
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle

Control matchups
1 Blood moon
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
(3 Spell Pierce)

Graveyard dependent Matchups
2 Relic of Progenitus

General Sideboard Swaps
2 Elspeth, Knight errant (alternative kill-condition postboard)

My metagame consist of skilled combo players, tribal, rock, tempo and diversified tier 2 and 3 decks. In other words I expect everything, but control. Control is pretty much dead here and I want it to start walking again.

So now, probably some questions occur to you guys?

1. Why 3 Sensei’s Divining Top and not 4?
2. Why 3 Enlightened Tutor and not 4?
3. Why sideboard cards for Combo, while we already have a good combo matchup?
4. What’s so different about the deck and why precisely do you want to write a post?

Questions 1 and 2 are pretty much from personal experiences. I never, ever liked 4 Sensei’s Divining Top. Therefore I do not want to play 4 Sensei’s Divining Top. Sensei’s Divining Top is probably the best card in Legacy, and it sure is the best card in this deck (just above Jace and Moat IMO). I want Sensei’s Divining Top in every game, because it creates an unfair amount of Card Quality. However, I do not want multiple Sensei’s Divining Top. Almost every game I playtest with 4 Sensei’s Divining Top leads to either 2 Sensei’s Divining Top in my Opening Hand or me drawing nearly every copy in the entire game. I therefore play 3 Sensei’s Divining Top, it’s my magical number.
So why play 3 Enlightened Tutor? Well as I explained above, 3 is my magical number. That counts for Enlightened Tutor aswell. Enlightened Tutor is a great search engine, but I do not want to be totally dependent on it (That’s one of the reasons why I play 3 Firespout in my Mainboard). I believe that 3 Enlightened Tutor is the magical number for me.

Question 3 is pretty much metagame dependent. I have skilled combo players in my team and therefore in my metagame. If u do not have skilled combo players in your team/metagame, your mainboard will be enough to stop your combo players.

Question 4 can be answered by Firespout and Pyroclasm in the sideboard. This deck is metagame dependent, designated to slaughter tribal and combo. Your mainboard should be enough to win from Agro-control decks. About the rest: I don’t care. Let them come…
So why do I want to write a post about the deck? My first sentence depicts my idea about this deck. This deck is insane. It has a stable manabase, it plays the strongest cards in legacy (Top, Moat, Jace and Brainstorm) and it’s a blast to play it.

I’m not finished, yet.
I have some statements/questions concerning this deck:
1. I’m not sure about the correct number of Thopther/Meek. I played the 3/2 split for just a few games, I’m now playing 2/1 for quite a while now. While playing numerous games it occurs to me that fast Thopther/Meek hands tend to end game fast. Is a 3/2 split or 3/1 split a good idea for the deck, to speed things up? On the other hand, why do we want to speed things up? Our mainboard is pretty good and can handle about anything.
2. What are your experiences with Ensnaring Bridge? It’s been (so far) better than Shackles, though both cards have different strategies ofcourse. Sometimes the card is good, but sometimes the card is just plain bad.
3. I’m thinking about adding a Tropical Island to the Mainboard for my Firespout. I’ve faced several games where I wanted my manabase to offer green for Firespout aswell. On the other hand my manabase will become (slightly) weaker by it.

[ivanpei]

Some of my thoughts:

1. I played 3/2 from the beginning. It ends games fast and I loved it. You want to finish matches in time and having more thopthers/swords were good. This is a notoriously slow deck, and unless you play really fast, killing quickly is good. The problem with this deck is that you will face grips in the board and that usually blows you out G2 and G3. There is (almost) nothing you can do about grip on moat/bridge eot into the alpha strike.

This has really put me off playing this deck for a while until I've decided to go transformational into goyfs and warmonks post board. And when you go transformational, you don't want to put too many combo components in the MD. Thats my view on it, but others have claimed that a 2/1 split is enough because you hate the combo against control. Your first component will stick, and they will always counter the 2nd component. You are then left sitting there with a dead card in play. Basically more components are good vs aggro, not so good vs control.

2. I love ensnaring bridge. You don't always have 4 mana to play moat or double white. IMO bridge -> shackles. It comes down quickly and stops decks in their tracks. Sometimes bridge isn't great against goblins due to their vials dropping uncounterable dudes while your counterspells sit in your hand, but those are acceptable risks. Bridge is a blow out vs decks with big dudes like zoo and folk. It's so much easier to cast when you are facing wastelands and dazes or facing a board that will put you in burn range (moat is sometimes too slow vs zoo).

3. I haven't really played with firespouts main because moat/bridge have been locking stuff up for me well in the MD. I don't have much problems vs aggro, its the control MU that I'm having trouble with where the card disadvantage of tutor and the dead combo components hurt. However the trop may be useful. Random faeries can show up and trygon predators are going to get popular due to Green Sun's Zenith being able to tutor for them now. You might also see death and taxes with serra avengers and flickerwisps.

My 2 cents, Cheers!

[grahf]

On Intution: Earlier in this deck's development, I overlooked Intuition in favor of Gifts Ungiven because Intuition doesn't give you both pieces of the combo in hand like a Gifts pile can. Probably an error in retrospect, as Gifts ended up being slow as molasses. But I'm still curious, if you would have the urge to Intution for Foundry, Sword, Ruins... (which would be useless as you'd get Sword in hand, and what then?)

On the number of Thopter/Swords: I've been playing 3/1, and I like it. The idea being that I can draw/filter into Foundry, then tutor for the Sword. Sometimes rushing for the combo feels like the right thing to do. So much so I might experiment with 4 Foundries and a few Chrome Moxen, and see where that leads.

On planeswalkers: Thoughts on the new Tezzeret? Like Jace, he's card advantage, board control, and a win condition all in one card. I see potential he might require a few more artifacts to filter into.