thx for your reply. I thought about adding snuff out, instead of shriekmaw in order to get more speed in performance and i thought about adding a third tombstalker and four fetchies to improve getting a quick tombstalker online and adding 1 tomb of urami for late kill option. So the list would be something like this:
5/5 Legion of Doom
4 marsh flats
4 wastelands
1 tomb of urami
11 swamp
4 phyrexian negator
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
3 tombstalker
4 sacromancy
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
4 duress
4 snuff out
3 diabolic edict
2 umezawas jitte
SB:
4 tormods crypt
4 dystopia
3 ratchet bomb
3 pithing needle
1 diabolic edict
What do you think about that build? Should i take it to a large tournament?
Anybody try Necrogen Scudder in their suicide decks?
hippie and nighthawk are just so much better
phylactery lich
its interesting card and i decided to test it. first i tried chrome mox (too much card disadvantage), urza's bauble (bad late game), vault of whispers (wasteland), darksteel citadel (need black mana for shade) before arriving at the below listed deck list.
main
17 snow-covered swamp
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 umezawa's jitte
4 nantuko shade
4 phyrexian war beast
4 hypnotic specter
4 phylactery lich
sideboard
4 dread of night
3 perish
2 keeper of the dead
2 withering wisps
2 bojuka bog
2 extirpate
also i quickly learned more then one in play at a time can be bad. i also found some matches you want to side out those artifacts you don't need. maybe phyrexian negator needs to be in the sideboard. the sideboard needs the most work. the field is so green white right now its scary. you also may want more flyers for things like moat. also are there any other solid artifact creatures besides phyrexian war beast? maybe masticore belongs in here..
i still think the deck plays slow. maybe it needs another win condition like hatred. not sure really.
scroll turns out to be really amazing in this deck. lots of time people have answers to creatures but not scroll. even if they run pridemages,often they are not enough to stop active scrolls
more impressive then Phylactery Lich by the way is Pact of Negation in Hatred. it really answers all those nay sayers out there that say well Hatred is too easy to disrupt with removal, counters, higher life total (ok we can't fix that) but if you build the deck right you should be in good shape.
this is what i'm testing now and i have to say, this is the best version of the deck to date i have seen. pact of negation allows you to cast hatred against burn, counters etc. it is a must have 4 of card all the time. also an addition i found is ancient tombs for getting to 5 mana quickly. so currently i'm running this
main deck
12 swamp
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 pact of negation
4 cursed scroll
4 dark ritual
4 sinkhole
4 hatred
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge
also you can use pact of negation if you are just attacking for the win and they have removal without hatred. its a lot of fun to play. and yeah, its not established but i just thought you guys might be interested. you get to cast hatred basically without fear. notice the deck runs NO DISCARD spells. you for the most part don't care what is in their hand. just want to remove annoying lands like maze of ith and mishra's factory
peace.
So you play 4 Sinkhole and 4 Pact of Negation....nothing else in the terms of removal and or discard?
How do you handle some of this choices:
Peacekeeper
Moat
Elephant Grass
Counterbalance
Any kind of Combo
Progenitus // Emrakul
?
I think this pile needs some removal, especially when you are planning to swing in with a Negator.
Also, how does this win versus Zoo or Merfolk?
Or versus ANT, TES,DDFT ?
Or versus CounterTopThopter?
Or versus Enchantress?
Or versus Dredge?
I don't see any reason to play this over Tano's list (can be found at the top)......
yeah i think i said its not established. but i'm very pleased with the results of testing today. pact of negation fixes a lot of things that were wrong with hatred. not all of course but quite a bit. when i have some tournament results of matches vs the decks you listed i will list them. but practicing today i won a lot of matches after hatred was force of will or my creature was swords because i ran pact of negation. maybe its just my play style but the other list just seems slow to me. list i'm running now is
sideboard
4 dread of night
4 contagion
3 perish
2 withering wisps
1 spinning darkness
1 reckless spite
main
13 snow-covered swamp
4 wasteland
4 pact of negation
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter
the deck basically wins 3 ways, jitte, hatred or scroll. but like i said its not established but i think there may be an alternative to the standard build so i posted it here. i know this though the deck won against a lot of decks it should not have because of pact so i think at the very least it warrants some investigation. but i'll post tournament results.
peace.
I dig your list necrowil! It's got a very Sligh mana curve to it and Pact of Negation is a clever way to safeguard your Hatred.
I just started playing this deck a short time ago myself (mainly because I wanted something fun that I could play my sets of Dark Rit and Hymn in lol), so I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. But after a little tinkering I have come up with a list I really like so far so I thought I'd share it.
[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
[16 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
[20 Lands]
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
4 Vendetta
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
I think it's probably one of the most balls to the wall aggro lists you'll find, running 24 creatures and a whole lot of self damage, but I find it effective. The creature base is pretty old school but they all do their job well IMHO, which is doing the most amount of damage to the opponent in the shortest time possible. This list basically relies on disrupting the opponent's hand and mana base during the first few turns and then bashing their face with the biggest creatures available for their mana cost over the next few turns before they can recover from the disruption.
I tried just about every popular creature that could see play in Sui Black (Confidant, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Tombstalker, etc.) but ultimately settled on my creature choices for their ability to get in as much damage as possible as fast as possible before the opponent could recover from disruption. The only exception are the Hippies, which keep the disruption going to buy time and have some nice evasive qualities as well. If he's able to stick for more than a few turns you can really establish a soft lock with the Hippie, emptying the opponent's hand with discard between him and Hymn/Thoughtseize and keeping it empty until they draw something to kill the Hippie.
For now at least I've chosen to keep all the removal in the sideboard, which allows for the maximum number of threats and disruption maindeck but gives me the option of tuning the deck with any necessary removal to improve aggro matchups in game 2 and 3. Ashenmoor Gouger is in the board to replace the Alien (Phyrexian Negator lol) when playing against anything playing Red, since any burn thrown his way majorly hinders our gameplan.
At this point the only changes I'm considering making to the main deck is to take out the 4x Carnophage for 4x Funeral Charm. It would lower the aggro abilities of the deck a bit (dropping the creature count to 20) but Funeral Charm seems like such a versatile spell I think it might be worth it. It's a built in answer to a turn 1 Lackey that's never a dead draw since you can also use it to pump one of your own guys, give them unblockability on the alpha strike if the opponent is playing any black sources, or just force a discard. Seems like it could be pretty tech :)
Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering
Since this deck plays a lot of things that have self damage, would Death's Shadow be a decent inclusion as a 1 or 2 of? It seems like a good card lategame though it isn't as good early game.
He seems to be made for this Archetype. Definitely he's worth a try as one or two of. Has anyone already gathered some experience
Win-More Much?
I didn't care for Death's Shadow too much myself. The problem being that this deck want's to dump it's threats on the board ASAP and win as soon as possible rather than sitting back and holding something until the moment is right to play it. Death's Shadow is one of those cards that is great if you have a Flesh Reaver out and are beating yourself to death at about the same rate as the opponent is dying, but without a Flesh Reaver on the board you often end up holding him the entire game and never being able to play him since your life total doesn't get low enough to make good use of him.
I'm not saying that Death's Shadow is unplayable, but I think you really need to make a build specifically to support him if you want to play him. In the creature base Flesh Reaver would be an auto 4 of, fetch lands seem necessary, and main decked removal in the form of Vendetta and Snuff Out seems necessary as well. Basically anything that keeps the deck aggro and helps you kill yourself would be good.
I might try a build with Death's Shadow at some point, but I think it's pretty safe to say that if you want to play him you really have to build around him with the idea of killing yourself as fast as possible being the focus... and I'm not sure that's the best focus to have when building a deck lol
I went 3-1 yesterday in a small local tournament (17 players).
List:
NOTE I borrowed ~15 cards as most of the cards are still in mail.
15 Swamp
2 Fetch
2 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Hypnotic Specter
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Phyrexian Negator
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Hymn
4 Inqusition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Snuff Out
4 Diabolic Edict
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
1 Null Rod
1 Deathmark
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Random card I cant remember
Match 1 Welder Reanimator 2-0
He keeps slow hand, I punish him with Cabal Therapy and Hymns. G2 Both mull to 5, I have 2 Leylines and he doesnt have Show and Tell.
Match 2 Affinity 2-1
G1 he overruns me. G2 Pithing needle on that troublesome equipment I cant remember right now. G3 Null Rod, laughs were had.
Match 3 UW Tempo 0-2
I had to mull on the play I drew only lands. G2 I name STP instead of fow on therapy, he had 2 fows.. I have bad draws here again.
Match 4 URb Dreadstill 2-1
G1 I make mistake, I could have flashback-therapied for fow before making him sac his Nought but I didnt and it cost me. G2 + G3 lots of discard and fast beatings = GG, especially on G3 I think I had fast Negator :)
My list wasnt exactly how I had planned it out but it worked out alright. Wastelands were always bad, I couldnt cast Malakir few times because of them, makes me unsure to run a playset in future when I am getting the 2 missing wastes...
List im planning on using in the future:
9 Swamp
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
2 Abyssal Persecutor / May add 1 more, confidants wont like that though.
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Negator
2 Jitte
4 Hymn
4 Inqusition of Kozilek / Maybe Split with Duresses
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Ghastly Demise / Could be Deathmarks, I fear goblins and merfolks though.
2 Snuff Out
4 Diabolic Edict
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
3 Deathmark / Perish / Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin
i think your list is what i think of when i think suicide black IMHO. its a beatdown deck. i put it together and its super effective at what it does which is disrupt the opponent and kill him. i actually made one change to the main deck. i took out carnophage for vampire lacerator. you take less damage from it and you really don't care about having zombies in the deck with 4 negator to remove sarcomancy if you need to.Originally Posted by Jin15
i'm not a fan of funeral charm. i think its subpar. i think you need a more brutal sideboard. i'm not a fan of gouger or plague. i don't have a board in mind but i would look at reckless spite, contagion, spinning darkness, forsaken wastes, withering wisps, cursed scroll, umezawa's jitte, dread of night, perish. you want free spells really because you want to play a threat or disrupt each turn so, you need an effective board. you want the rudest cards black has to offer.
also if your board cards costs 3, i would not run more then 2 of whatever it is. you want it to be a fast deck. you don't want an open hand full of plagues or dystopia.
wastes will allow you to end the game quickly. you don't want them stabalizing at some low life number. wastes just ensures their doom. this way if your opponent gets out something asinine like ghostly prison or propaganda or humility or moat or ensnaring bridge or active jitte you can still end the game. dystopia is ok but it really is not aggressive enough. plague is slow and most decks that play one creature type are ready for it. i'm not a fan of kaervek's spite. i like soul spike over it but this deck empties its hand so you may need something else. or you may need nothing. i found 22 or 23 creatures to be most ideal. 20 sometimes you just don't draw enough threats.
shade may be an option to cut if you want a slot. how many active shades do you want on the board anyway. also i like skittering skirge as well. in a deck like this, they will kill it if they can. you also may not need 4 negator. usually you only want one out at a time. i'm offering this if you are looking to cut something and you may not be. list is fine the way it is. like i said i only ran vampire lacerator over carnophage because IMHO its a better card.
i actually run countersliver for my tournament deck. its not your garden variety countersliver just because my deck wins a lot.. but i still test suicide and hatred a lot. i'm not sure pact belongs in it but it is funny to see when it works and they try to force of will it. the main issue is they are usually playing bigger guys then you. its mostly a fun deck as i get tired of my tournament deck.
i like suicide. a lot of decks still can't handle 1st turn negator or turn 1 fleshreaver sarcomancy go backed up with disruption. do you usually play creatures 1st or disrupt 1st then play them?
peace.
necrowil
Death's Shadow is definitely a card you have to build a deck around. If I were playing Death's Shadow I would play Lurking Evil main deck
BBB
Enchantment
Sacrifice half your life. Lurking evil becomes a 4/4 black horror flyer.
But I agree with Jin because typically you cannot ritual it out 1st turn which is a problem in a fast deck.
well suicide got a gift today. go for the throat is the best targeted removal card black has seen for a long time. i'm still testing hatred. so far the best version of the deck i have come up with is.
sideboard
4 go for the throat
4 dread of night
4 contagion
3 perish
main
13 swamp
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 hypnotic specter
plan is simple really. the city of traitors enable you to equip jitte or get active scroll quickly or cast negator on turn 2. the extra mana is cool to have for negator, equipping and scroll. the scroll usually can finish them off if they survive the creature rush. wastelands held for problematic lands. simple really.
The reason this deck fell out of favor a while ago is that its creature base was sub par compared to the rest of the format, namely tarmogoyf. Aside from splashing green in this deck, I believe the only other viable option this deck has is to make use of the new Phylactery Lich from M11. This card is definitely overpowered enough for its mana cost to fit perfectly into this decks game plan, so all that is left to effectively use this card is to be able to keep your phylactery counters on the table. Ive been testing a new list as of late that makes use of aether vial, jitte, and artifact lands to provide a stable artifact base and through this decks large amount of hand disruption, you are usually able to protect it from removal. The whole point of building the deck with lich though is so that you can support a 5/5 indestructible without too many drawbacks IN ADDITION TO everything else you are doing, this is why swords and pridemage and grip shouldnt be as problematic as one would first assume. Sure, if they catch you with your pants down you get two for oned, but compared to the amount of times you will be able to pull their artifact removal out of their hand and the fact that deck still plays well without the lich it is worth making yourself just a tad more open to wastelands then usual (right now im running 2-1 split between vault and darksteel citadel, don't know which is which just yet as im not running shade).
I have found aether vial to be especially effective as often times you can vial in a confidant at the end of there turn insuring that you will net extra cards for at least 1-2 turns as you are then given the chance to use discard to pull the removal out of there hand on your next turn (it also allows you to instant speed nighthawk block).
Also, go for the throat outclasses any removal spell this deck may have had before, with the only exception being snuff out in lists that do not utilize confidant and are not already running a lot of life loss. Please run it.
Edit:I normally opt out for the disruption, as you have the option to protect your business and you gain information on their game plan.
Call me Ishmael
Hey dudes!
I was trying Plague Sliver in main deck, and he's fantastic! It's a Juzam Djinn for 1 buck heeh
My list is:
22 Swamp
3 Tombstalker
4 Plague Sliver
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
Its missing 5 cards, that im still not sure yet.
Sign in blood, deathmark, infest, hypnotic specter and go for the throat are my options that i came up.
Im not running hymns beacause inquisition is faster and i can remove specific stuff.
The Tempo card: - Snuff out is perfect, you dont need mana to cast it and helps to play and equip jitte faster..
obs: I dont want wasteland, Bobs and sinkholes...they're just so much expensive! Maybe later...
any thoughts?
4 Shade is too many. I'd drop down to 2. 8 1cc discard is too many, too. Drop 2-4 of them. Add in more creatures, like Gateekeper of Malakir, or some of the really aggressive ones like Flesh Reaver or Vampire Lacerator.
for those who care, this is a decent version of hatred i came up with utilizing the best tutors black has to offer which isn't saying a lot, but it does quite well. 1 grim tutor and 1 diabolic intent seem to be the best. you don't really want to draw more then 1 intent or grim during any given game. it also allows you to finish them off if you are in a race by tutoring for kaervek's spite if they are not playing blue. they are quite good for what they do. if there were a 3rd decent tutor out there i might utilize it, but there just isn't right now.
adding mesmeric fiend was key over pact of negation just to knock out key cards which may prevent you from going off. doesn't look too much different the hatred decks of old and i found the shadow creatures to be a very necessary evil of the deck for what it's worth. the deck wants more zombies and flyers like skittering skirge for moat but even with the drawback of sarcomancy its actually much better to run lacerator over carnophage.
negator is ok but not really missed in the deck and of course jitte is a great win condition on shadow creatures. you are forced to play it really. so many people start it that you can't afford for it to resolve and have no answer for jitte.
i favor a ton of graveyard hate. i just don't like when people start doing all sorts of crazy things in their graveyard. bog is strong. can't be countered and provides black mana. macabre can't be countered either and extirpate is not bad vs control/combo decks.
hatred
sideboard
4 dread of night
4 cursed scroll
3 perish
2 faerie macabre
2 extirpate
main deck
12 swamp
4 crystal vein
4 wasteland
2 bojuka bog
4 dark ritual
4 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
1 kaervek's spite
1 diabolic intent
1 grim tutor
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 mesmeric fiend
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter
peace.
necrowil
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