[Deck] Ugwr Intuition CounterTop

[Concallesco]

First off, I'd really like to commend Mana Drain, Valtrix and ivanpei on this deck. I've put it together and have been playing a few games with it, and it's an absolute blast to play. The primer was extremely helpful and well-written as well. Really a great job.

I do have a question regarding the Glimpse Affinity MU. I've found that Etched Champion, and, to a lesser extent, Myr Enforcer, are somewhat difficult to deal with, especially since EE@3 is a bit slow and doesn't solve the rest of affinity, and a Cranial Plating or even +1/+1 counters voids a lot of the effectiveness of Vedalken Shackles. Obviously it's possible to Swords the Enforcer, but Firespout doesn't deal with either of these two creatures. Do you guys have any suggestions?

[Valtrix]

Affinity can be a rough matchup, though I haven't played it much, and I think it depends on your build a lot. Plating is particularly difficult to deal with, so generally you're going to try and deal with their creatures instead, and perhaps take a couple hits with a plated guy. Fortunately a lot of their creatures die to firespouts (ornithopter, canonist, disciple, frogmite, etc.) so firespout is pretty key to sweep their creatures, especially if they're playing glimpse. You're going to want to set up ruins lock in the matchup, so try and do whatever you can to survive until then. Swords should be saved for enforcers and master of etherium, while counterspells should be aimed at platings and etched champion. Goyf is pretty good in this matchup, because it's easy to make him fairly large to block things. The nice thing about them is that they have only a few threats that really matter, since firespout can sweep away most of the crappy artifacts they play to make the rest of their deck better.

[Anusien]

If you can't beat Affinity, SB 3 Ancient Grudges. I doubt they can ever beat Intuition for Grudges.

[Mana Drain]

@Valtrix: I do like the idea of something like 1 Grove/2 Fire/1 Intuition in the board. The numbers would have to be fooled with but Fires recursion is something that no aggro deck can deal with if they don't have hate for it. Very interesting. How has only 1 Fire been working for you in the MD? I feel that 2 is all we would ever need and can support, but 1 would be somewhat underwhelming. If anything, the remaining CS could go for the 2nd Fire, retaining the CB curve stats, with plenty of U cards to support FoW still. Fires is simply devastating if they can't stop it, and allowing us to save STP/Path for Goyf and friends is a major plus.

The problem I see with Lavamancer is that he has to be in play early to be most effective IMO. I know you mention Peacekeeper as one of the option against aggro, so wouldn't it be better against the aggro? (Peacekeeper also stop Dredge, Show and Tell and Random Junk.)

True, to an extent. If your in topdeck mode and staring down an army of dudes, yes, Grim is weak. If you drop him T1 off of a fetch, good shit happens. His main purpose is strengthening the Mid-range matchup by nailing Hierarch/Pridemage/Confidant/MM/whatever utility dude while also helping win Goyf stalemates. Yes, he is vulnerable to removal, but most aggro-ish decks I play against SB out most of their removal. And if he is nailed early, think of it as a 1-1 trade that trades tempo with the aggro deck. This means that they have one less mana to drop an early threat. This might not seem significant, but think of the difference between a T1 Nacatl and a T2 Nacatl - Which one do you fear more? Same goes for Lackey, Hierarch, Pridemage, Confidant. And if they don't stop Mr. Grim (the usual case against Mid-range and Folk), you will more than likely win off of his back. Repeating Shocks are truely no joke, regardless if they have summoning sickness or not. Again, a large part of his effectiveness is due to the fact that if dropped early, he forces the removal or the concession from most creature decks.

It should be known that the few Goblins builds I do play against are all mono-red, heavy mana-disruption based. He is certainly less effective than FS against Goblins, but FS is much less effective against Rock/Bant than Mr. Grim, which is a bigger part of my metagame. I don't like PK here for the reason that it improves matchups that we don't have significant trouble with. I've yet to lose a match to Dredge, we SB in like 9-10 cards for Merfolk as it is, and SnT decks have significant trouble with CB, CS, Force, Red blasts, and other SB spell hate. PK was absolutely amazing - 3-4 months ago when Survival was the best deck in the format. This is no longer the case, and PK's help is not needed anymore. Besides, for the 3 mentioned, there are faster and more versatile answers. Unless Dredge and SnT are relevant in your metagame, I don't suggest PK right now.
However, I think if we can get Grove/Fires worked into the deck somehow again, it will significantly shore up all of the mentioned matchups, as GY hate is usually irrelevant from all of the above as they all have better cards to SB in against us.

First off, I'd really like to commend Mana Drain, Valtrix and ivanpei on this deck. I've put it together and have been playing a few games with it, and it's an absolute blast to play. The primer was extremely helpful and well-written as well. Really a great job.

I do have a question regarding the Glimpse Affinity MU. I've found that Etched Champion, and, to a lesser extent, Myr Enforcer, are somewhat difficult to deal with, especially since EE@3 is a bit slow and doesn't solve the rest of affinity, and a Cranial Plating or even +1/+1 counters voids a lot of the effectiveness of Vedalken Shackles. Obviously it's possible to Swords the Enforcer, but Firespout doesn't deal with either of these two creatures. Do you guys have any suggestions?

Valtix answered the question already, but I must agree that Champion is a motherfucker. If you have the space, Nature's Claim is pretty amazing against them, and is versatile enough to be useful in other matchups as well. Resolved Champion I feel is Affinity's trump against Control. It may be a wacked-out idea, but SBing 1 Underground Sea and 2-3 Deed would be a nasty surprise for them, while still being useful against other decks.

If you can't beat Affinity, SB 3 Ancient Grudges. I doubt they can ever beat Intuition for Grudges.

While Intuition > Triple Grudge would indeed break Affinity, Grudge is pretty narrow in this deck. The only non-Affinity artifacts that I think we have to worry about are opposing Tops, Jitte, Needle, and Vial (and technically Relic/Crypt, but this is moot). On the flip-side, there are many enchantments I don't want to see on the other side, like Choke, B2B, Blood Moon, Library, CB. Extra EEs, Ratchets, Claims, and the slower but certain Grip are just more versatile. But if Affinity starts wrecking the metagame, 3 Grudge is pretty solid hate in addition to our other SB options.

[Valtrix]

On the affinity issue, 3 meltdown might just be more effective to wreck them instead of ancient grudges, as it destroys their manabase and gets champion (Though probably won't get frogmites or enforcers, I think it's a reasonable tradeoff). It's still very narrow, but I guess it lets you wreck stax too.

[kingtk3]

If your meta is full of Affinity I think the best hate is Energy Flux since:
it's a mass removal that lives through the game
it doesn't target
it requires only one colored mana that's already in color of the deck
it can be FoW-picked.

In general I agree with Valtrix on how manage the match up.

[DragoFireheart]

Energy Flux for Affinity decks, Aura Flux for enchantments.

[Deady]

My apologies for the deleted messages :D!

I'm recently converted from NO/PRO Countertop to Intuition Countertop. I'm also playing UGW Tempo Bant, but I've always prefered Countertop over any other deck.

I think the deck is really great and a blast to play with.

After some testing I came up with the following SB:

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Firespout
3 Punishing Fire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Ratchet Bomb

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask and/or discuss.

[Mana Drain]

I've thought about a second Shackles in the board, but never got around to testing it. Valtrix and Deady, what matchups do you bring in the second Shackles?

Also, been testing the 2 Punishing Fires for 2 Counterspells MD. Had to rework the manabase to fit in the basic Forest and Mountain, but overall I'm impressed with the results of such a minor change. Additional spot removal to supplement StP in the MD is very nice, especially against Gobs. We still have 18 U-cards to pitch to FoW, which I'm okay with, but it's worth the significant boost against creature decks. Also playing and extra Grove and Fires like Valtrix and Deadly in the board, which is even better.

Here's my new manabase (much more conservative than my old one and an easier time utilizing Fires):

1 Ruins
1 Grove
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

I tried the 23rd land briefly (an additional fetch), but felt that I was seeing a little more land than I wanted. Not that I'm against 61 cards, but until further testing proves otherwise, I'm sticking with 22/38 lands/spells ratio.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Happy to see my suggestion seems to work out for you guys :) PFire really is the ultimate answer to tribal because it beats them whenever it comes online no matter what (well, unless they already have an absolutely overwhelming board presence), at least that's my experience. Out of interest, how far has it pushed the Gobs/Fish matchups in this deck? Is the deck massively favored yet?
The one thing I really dislike now is that the only true counters in the deck are the Forces, feels low to me (I know CB counters stuff, but it usually takes quite some time to set up if the opponent is interacting at all, which means you're rather weak to early non-creature threats). I agree though that there isn't really much else to cut.

@Mana Drain: I like that manabase a lot better. Having unwasteable sources for your removal (or in your case, Goyfs) is so good in a meta full of Wastelands and Vials...

[ivanpei]

@ Mon,Goblin Chief: I agree with you regarding the lack of counters in the early game. I'm playing 3 spell snares in place of the 3rd intuition, shackles and EE. I've been swapping the 3rd snare with an EE if the meta is less combo-ish. I still have the loam-EE-ruins pile for a strong late game while having some early game counters with snare. You can then move the shackles into the board.

On punishing fire, I believe its very strong if you see plenty of tribal in your area. While fire is a good removal spell to draw, I'm pretty doubtful on the grove. Grove doesn't make blue which is a major pain so you should not play more than 2 at any point of time unless you decide to totally forgo basics. Question to people who are testing punishing fire, does it help turn the goblins MU into a positive one? I know it destroys folk/elves etc, but I'm just wondering if 2cc removal spells and the slow engine set up is effective against goblin's lackeys, ringleaders etc. Goblins generates CA and puts pressure on your life total + manabase at the same time. Its the ultimate nightmare.

Thanks in advance for posting your testing results, I'm busy breaking Green Sun's Zenith right now, that card is the nuts. We might want to start preparing for the zenith based decks that are bound to start appearing.

[Deady]

@Mon,Goblin Chief/Ivanpei:

I'd side out both Counterbalance and FoW against Goblins. Counterbalance is too slow here (you''ll need to set it up early with SDT and double blue mana) and FoW doesn't have the brutal power it's supposed to have with all the added red cards, artifacts and less blue cards. The remaining blue cards are cards that are all important on their own and cards you don't want to pitch to FoW in the first place, at least not in this matchup. In this matchup you should be begging for the right mana at the right time to play all the spells you want to play, nothing more, nothing less.

The goal against Goblins is to play an entirely different strategy, almost an entirely different deck, which is possible with the SB. Intuition is even more powerful here, as it gives you all the options you could ask for (Punishing Fire/Grove/Ruins/EE/Loam/Firespout/Shackles and so on. However, you can't turn a slow control deck into a faster one, but that's totally not the goal anyway. The main goal against Goblins is to constantly slow them down and beat them hard in their face with your own goodies (Goyf, JACE, Shackles), which means you need to have enough mana to support this strategy, as well as the right mana. EE seems more powerful as well, as Grove can tap for both red or green mana. Grove is a serious threat thats even useful aside from the Punishing Fire combo, at least in this deck.

I side-in 3x Grove of the Burnwillows and go -1 SDT, -1 Flooded Strand. SDT is not the best choice as 4-off here (there's no Counterbalance); 3x is the right number. I don't side-out the 2-off Counterspells, as they're always useful to counter their hate or to counter threats like Ringleader or Lackey. I keep the 2 basic Islands in the MD and play with 24 lands (including 3x Grove of the Burnwillows).

This is my stock MD:

2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand


4 Tarmogoyf

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Firespout
1 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

=====================

Post-board (against Goblins):

2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Tarmogoyf

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Firespout
1 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Counterspell

It's still in testing-process.

[hyc8028]

@ Deady: After sidebording, you SB should still have 15 cards and your deck should have the same number of cards as it did game 1. You need to take another card out in your post board deck.

[Deady]

My fault, -1 Ratchet Bomb! Thanks.

I've gone -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, which makes up for a 2-3 split with Punishing Fire. I feel that 3x Grove of the Burnwillows is one too much, especially since I find that blue mana is still important in the early/mid game and late game. Cutting a Flooded strand for a Grove also didn't seem quite like a right choice, as it's important to be able to fetch for a Tundra as well, when needed. Cutting a Tropical Island and a Misty Rainforest for 2 Groves is much, much better; you also keep the 22/38 lands/spells ratio this way; I'm even about to make this change into the original MD (-1 Trop, -1 Misty, +2 Grove) to save space in the SB for different, more important hate.

So, my MD has become:

2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand

4 Tarmogoyf

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Firespout
1 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

With a new SB:

3 Punishing Fire
1 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Ratchet Bomb
2.....................

Now let's figure out what to do with the remaining empy spots! Who knows it could be useful for Zenith based decks in the near future.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Thanks for the quick and detailed responses, this thread is awesome!

@ ivanpe: I wouldn't ever cut the MD EE from a deck like this, not having a way to Intuition into some form of board-lock that beats anything permanent-based including opposing CB-decks seems just wrong and in my mind makes running the Intuition/Loam MD not really worth it. At that point the Loam only guarantees landdrops when you already have three to four (Daze) mana. Cutting the Shackles and third Intuition for Countermagic on the other hand seems like an option, EE can deal with most things Shackles can (less powerfully than Shackles, but that can be boarded) and if the plan against Goblins becomes to set up Fire/Grove having either lock available (Ruins/EE and Grove/Fire) should mean Intuition breaks any matchup but combo anyway.
Concerning your doubts about PFire, I have quite a bit of experience with the engine in Legacy control (see sig) and it utterly destroys Goblins. The 2 mana removal is fine and Grove is simply a manasource, something you can't have enough off against Goblins anyway. The engine is actually better against Goblins than it is against Folk because they have nothing at all that makes it so that their guys don't die to a single Fire. Grove not producing blue isn't much of a problem, Deady's list for example has two Groves and still 19 U sources, more than a number of other CB-decks run anyway (because they have fewer lands).

@Deady: That is quite an interesting SB plan as I wouldn't ever want to be without FoW against Goblins. It does the two most important things possible in this matchup: Stops turn 1 Lackey/Vial and stops Ringleader without slowing down the pace of your game. Not having FoW on the draw means you have only four ways to stop a turn one Lackey and no way to answer Vial outside of the EEs. Considering Vial-fuelled mass-drops are pretty much the only way they ever beat Fire/Grove, opening yourself up to these cards doesn't seem like the greatest plan.
Also, Misty Rainforest no. 4 is definitely superior to Flooded Strand no. 1 in your list. Tundra is still an Island, meaning Misty can grap it - actually there is no land in your whole deck Strand can grap that Misty can't (I'm sure you're aware of that, so: hawhaw @ mindfart ;) ).
As to your free SB slots, I'd probably still run the third Grove there, having an additional land against Tribal is useful and you want to draw Grove early and often if you rely on Fire. Having more than one just means you get to kill more things a turn (important against Vial/once Goblins has developed a lot of mana). It also helps find a Grove without Intuition (or to Insta-find it with Intuition without relying on Loam if their start dictates that that's what you need). Definitely curious how the testing goes!

[Deady]

@Mon,Goblin Chief:

Thanks for your suggestion about running the 3rd Grove in the board and going -1 Flooded Strand instead of -1 Misty Rainforest in the MD...I'll give it a try and perhaps it might be even better with the mana base I'm running. I always start fetching for a basic Island anyway and 2 Island/1 Mountain/1 Forest is everything we need in the matchup (we don't need RR or GG). Running only 1 basic Island in the maindeck isn't something I'd encourage though...2 Islands are very important for Counterbalance and a mid/late game Jace, as well as for your Counterspells (if you run them MD or SB).

Grove gets the best out of Firespout as well.

Manabase:

2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest

SB:

3 Punishing Fire
1 Firespout
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Counterspell
1 Ratchet Bomb

Edit: currently trying out -1 MD Shackles, +1 MD Vendilion Clique.

[Mana Drain]

Well, I still haven't been able to test much other than a small showing at my Sunday tournament (YuGioh Sneak Peak was going on so our numbers were a low), but I'm pretty much sold on the Fires engine MD. I completely agree with Mon and ivanpei that hard counters are missed, but I've found the strength of Fires against Mid-range and aggro to be worth the weakened matchup against CB/Control/Combo. Nailing Mid-ranges utility dudes has saved me much more than than CSing one of their Goyfs or other dude, and the fact that it answers a Pridemage already on the table so I can drop CB is also extremely relevant. I think at any large tournament (35+), you can reasonably expect a majority of decks to play creatures, and Fires is great against most Tier 1 decks in the format. Landstill is almost non-existent in my meta and other CB decks can be beaten post-board still, while Goblins, Folk, and all sorts of mid-range just can't handle the recurring shocks G1.

I'm not quite sure if I should update the Primer to include the now-popular Fires/Grove set yet, so I'm gonna' give it a little more time so that we can see the full extent of the change before we go about ditching something already proven.

Also, I have to say a big thank you to everybody in this thread. Almost every post so far has been thought out and insightful, and we've got a group of good minds playing the deck. We don't have idiots asking obvious questions or making ridiculous suggestions, but positivel changes with valid merit and intelligent questions with not-so-obvious answers. Again, I personally thank everybody here for their input and suggestions. Posters in other threads only wish they had the content that we do. Let's keep up the good work guys, and this deck can shine.

[Link Ramirez]

I completely agree with Mon and ivanpei that hard counters are missed, but I've found the strength of Fires against Mid-range and aggro to be worth the weakened matchup against CB/Control/Combo. Nailing Mid-ranges utility dudes has saved me much more than than CSing one of their Goyfs or other dude, and the fact that it answers a Pridemage already on the table so I can drop CB is also extremely relevant.

My take to fit in Fires/Grove was to replace one Fetchland with a Grove and the Shakles with a Fire, keeping the Counterspells, with another Grove and Fire in the Board. I'm not totally set on this, but for me Shakles and Fire/Groves serves the same purpose. And I think Shakles is slower at that.

[Mana Drain]

My take to fit in Fires/Grove was to replace one Fetchland with a Grove and the Shakles with a Fire, keeping the Counterspells, with another Grove and Fire in the Board. I'm not totally set on this, but for me Shakles and Fire/Groves serves the same purpose. And I think Shakles is slower at that.

Shackles and Fires do serve a similar purpose, but do so in different ways. Fires is instant speed pinpoint removal for just 2 mana and is another way to punish your opponent for letting Intuition resolve. Shackles is a 5-mana investment that completely warps the gamestate in your favor when facing down 1-2 larger threats, of even 3-4 smaller threats, and allows for stabilization in a dangerous position. Post stabilization, dropping Shackles almost always results in a scoop from the other guy if they don't have an out to it.

I think it comes down to the simple and proven fact that Legacy is a creature-based format, and every non-combo deck in the format (excluding Lands and other randomness) runs some number of creatures. Being recoverable through Ruins is just a bonus that is sometimes relevant.
Shackles is slower, but gamebreaking. It's also another 3-drop for the CB curve, which is becoming more and more relevant.

EDIT: Also, now that CB decks are known as the deck to beat, we can expect to face more and more hate aimed at us. That also means that we're going to have to dedicate more slots in the SB to the mirror. I'm currently making adjustments to the MD and SB to see if we can find a happy medium of power against the Mirror, and against aggro. I really want to fit in another EE into the MD, because there are so few times where I'm unhappy to see it. Anybody else feel the same? This is also compounded by the lowered counter-count with Fires in the mix. While I'm satisfied by the increased aggro hate, CB decks and other non-linear decks I'm feeling are becoming a problem. Whether we should address this by using massive SB hate or altering the MD further I can't yet tell. Like I said, I'm making adjustments to the MD to see if a medium can be found.

[Link Ramirez]

Shackles and Fires do serve a similar purpose, but do so in different ways. Fires is instant speed pinpoint removal for just 2 mana and is another way to punish your opponent for letting Intuition resolve. Shackles is a 5-mana investment that completely warps the gamestate in your favor when facing down 1-2 larger threats, of even 3-4 smaller threats, and allows for stabilization in a dangerous position. Post stabilization, dropping Shackles almost always results in a scoop from the other guy if they don't have an out to it.

Don't get me wrong, I love to play Shackles because it really feels like playing control. While I was playing MUC I rarely needed own creatures. The question is, do I need Shackles MD if I have Fire/Grove. Shackles is standalone good while Fire usually needs Grove. But facing Goblins or that blue tribe I think I prefer Fire early. Only a dead Lord of Atlantis is a good Lord of Atlantis. And Goblins tend to kill me to fast.
I also prefer to kill turn 2 Bob. Of course stealing Bob is fun, but I don't like it when the other guy draws extra cards.
And post stabilisation, dropping Jace is most of the time enough. Plus I like Counterspells MD.
Another problem I have with Shackles is that in the dark I don't want to see it in my opening hand. It always feels like not being useful before turn 5 and even then only if I make every landdrop and don't meet Wasteland. That's why I would like it better in the board.

With all that said, I don't want to rule out that I just make wrong Shackles-decisions in game. I will continue testing.

I also want to play another Explosives MD. But don't you think 24 CMC=0 is too much for Counterbalance? What would the curve look like? Right now I have preboard

0: 23 (22 Land, 1 EE)
1: 12 (BS, Top, Swords)
2: 12 (CB, Goyf, Loam, 1 Fire, 2 Counterspell)
3: 6 (Firespout, Intuition)
4: 3 (Jace)
5: 4

And this already feels sometimes fragile.