[Deck] Elves Combo

[Namida]

Nihil's list def isn't bad. It's actually insanely similar to the list I ran before I started using Emrakul. I just think wish, like you said, is more consistent. I tested GSZ last night by essentially playing with my wish build and then every time I had a wish I asked myself "would I rather have had this be a GSZ?" I will continue to do this to see which one I end up wanting more, though wish was def in the lead after last night.

The way you've described your test doesn't seem like it's doing the test justice. I admit I might be jumping on semantics here, though. Let me ask: are you playing your deck as though you have GSZ in it, or are you just playing your deck like you're packing Wishes and evaluating the GSZs based on situations you naturally play yourself into where Wish would clearly have been the better card? The way you've described it, it seems as though you're playing your deck the way you've practiced since you made the change to a Wish-based list, and when you finally draw the card in question you're evaluating it based on a situation that you would navigate yourself into with the expectation that you would be able Wish for something.

What I'm seeing is that even if your only switch was Wish for GSZ (which probably wouldn't be the genuine case, given that your deck doesn't have any other "combo" win condition in the main), your deck would require an different playstyle that cannot accurately be represented from the testing, as you've portrayed it.

I think you'll find that you're doomed to butt heads over this until you agree to disagree because you are arguing about two different cards that serve two different roles in two different decks--and these decks are specifically tailored to your respective playstyles. Living Wish is your main win condition, and your answer to problem cards. In Nihil's Deck, Green Sun's Zenith isn't the win condition at all. It functions as extra copies of Summoner's Pact. How can you argue which one is better in your deck when the very inclusion of one card over another actually changes the entire focus of the deck?

[k2thej]

The way you've described your test doesn't seem like it's doing the test justice. I admit I might be jumping on semantics here, though. Let me ask: are you playing your deck as though you have GSZ in it, or are you just playing your deck like you're packing Wishes and evaluating the GSZs based on situations you naturally play yourself into where Wish would clearly have been the better card? The way you've described it, it seems as though you're playing your deck the way you've practiced since you made the change to a Wish-based list, and when you finally draw the card in question you're evaluating it based on a situation that you would navigate yourself into with the expectation that you would be able Wish for something.

What I'm seeing is that even if your only switch was Wish for GSZ (which probably wouldn't be the genuine case, given that your deck doesn't have any other "combo" win condition in the main), your deck would require an different playstyle that cannot accurately be represented from the testing, as you've portrayed it.

I think you'll find that you're doomed to butt heads over this until you agree to disagree because you are arguing about two different cards that serve two different roles in two different decks--and these decks are specifically tailored to your respective playstyles. Living Wish is your main win condition, and your answer to problem cards. In Nihil's Deck, Green Sun's Zenith isn't the win condition at all. It functions as extra copies of Summoner's Pact. How can you argue which one is better in your deck when the very inclusion of one card over another actually changes the entire focus of the deck?

They do serve two different functions. We are debating which function is better to include.

I play just to try to combo as fast as I can, not thinking about wish targets or anything. I treat the card as whichever would have made me combo faster.

[k2thej]

This has been discussed to great extent earlier in the thread, but Messenger is very bad in combo. I is, first of all, 4 mana, which is already bad. On top of that, if you see a glimpse/pact it puts it on the bottom of your library. You do not want this. You want to see glimpse as fast as you can, so this card is actually counter productive.

Birchlore makes the combo faster, and it is a one-drop. It is a great inclusion.

I have never been stifled. The card removal is more important. Not to mention that we only need one land, so the probability of your opponent having stifle is already pretty low, and then on top of that the probability that you have a fetch not a forest in hand is even lower.

[Namida]

They do serve two different functions. We are arguing about which function is better to include.

Pardon me if I'm missing the point, and feel free to correct me. What I'm getting at is more that you're playing two different decks. How are you evaluating which one would have had you combo faster? When you pretend you're playing GSZ, are you pretending that you have Grapeshots and Silver Bullets in your deck, too? I just feel like GSZ would play completely differently in a deck with Emrakul in it than the deck that Nihil is playing.

[unicoerner]

I don't know if the risk/reward ratio is good for the fetches.

After i built your deck i immediatley realized why Messangers are bad. Sry for asking.
Perhaps we could find a spot for eternal witness in the board?
Another Joraga might be good too, if we want to go the aggro route sometimes which your build can still do very well.

[k2thej]

Pardon me if I'm missing the point, and feel free to correct me. What I'm getting at is more that you're playing two different decks. How are you evaluating which one would have had you combo faster? When you pretend you're playing GSZ, are you pretending that you have Grapeshots and Silver Bullets in your deck, too? I just feel like GSZ would play completely differently in a deck with Emrakul in it than the deck that Nihil is playing.

Emrakul and storm with respect to elves combo are almost the same card. They are a way to finish the combo, which one you play has very little effect on how the deck functions.

After looking at Nihil's list again, I think I had forgotten how different our lists were. I appreciate you pointing this because you are completely right, we are playing two very different takes on elves combo. This was my mistake. I suppose the debate should shift to which build is better altogether rather than which tutor, since each respective tutor likely works better in the build it is currently in.

***If everyone could test both builds (adjusting their playing styles to each when testing of course), and post the pros/cons they find for each, we could get some really, really good data***

[k2thej]

I like the joraga in the board, but idk about running 2 main. We already have 8 chances at him (1 main, 4 pact, 3 wish). Plus we can put the other in if we want to go straight non-wish aggro.

I tested eternal witness in the board a lot and never searched for her. Try testing it I think you'll see what I mean.

[NihilObstat]

k2thej, what I meant by: I will test the Wish list, is that I was gonna try your exact decklist, not to add wishes to mine. I believe that that is what testing is about. You should do the same. I woulnd't play GSZ at all in your deck because it's quite different. I suggest you try my deck, play 20-30 online games, and write down matchups, wins-losses, etc.
Again I think I didn't explain myself properly I don't fear Leyline by itself because I can kill aggro, I only fear Solitary confinement, since it does both, Aggro and Storm protection. So I fear 1 frequently used card opposite to 3 commonly used.

My current list, still tweaking it up a bit, with the new changes.:

Creatures [31]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel

Instants [6]
1 Crop Rotation
3 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries [5]
1 Grapeshot
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [2]
2 Cloudstone Curio

Lands [16]
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dyrad arbor (not positive, maybe needs 3 GSZ at least)
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest

Sideobard: It is going through change with GSZ, still testing.
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Elvish champion
1 Elvish archdruid


To GoldenCig: So, I am still very fond of Chord of Calling, and taking it out has made me lose 3 very important cards for my old build: Mirror entity, Burrenton forge-tender, Yixlid jailer.

Chord becomes outstanding next to more Wirewood hivemasters, also adding Magus of the Moon to the side.

Losing this 3 cards makes up for more consistency and speed. I do fear Firespout and Pyroclasm a lot now, though, and I don't know what to do... Mirror entity used to be a MD protector against those cards, and then Burrenton was just outstanding. Anyone has any good ideas? That's why I added more lords to the side. I still need something good to make up for the huge aggro loss of Entity.

To K2thej: On running 16 lands vs. 13 or so: Some people only play 13 lands to reduce the number of them in the opening hands, but then they increase by a great deal the number of mulligans they take.
So it breaks down like this- Do we prefer the risk of having a 7 cards - 2-3 lands hand, or 6-5 cards - 1 land hand ?

You should also realize that only us and 13-land stompy run so few lands. The next Legacy deck to run the fewest lands run 18 of them, backep up by 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm.... and then some have 20, many 23, and many others 28. 16 lands is still a very low range number. 13 is, I belive, suicidal even with 8 Llanowars.

[k2thej]

k2thej, what I meant by: I will test the Wish list, is that I was gonna try your exact decklist, not to add wishes to mine. I believe that that is what testing is about. You should do the same. I woulnd't play GSZ at all in your deck because it's quite different. I suggest you try my deck, play 20-30 online games, and write down matchups, wins-losses, etc.
Again I think I didn't explain myself properly I don't fear Leyline by itself because I can kill aggro, I only fear Solitary confinement, since it does both, Aggro and Storm protection. So I fear 1 frequently used card opposite to 3 commonly used.

My current list, still tweaking it up a bit, with the new changes.:

Creatures [31]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel

Instants [6]
1 Crop Rotation
3 Summoner's Pact

Sorceries [5]
1 Grapeshot
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [2]
2 Cloudstone Curio

Lands [16]
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Dyrad arbor (not positive, maybe needs 3 GSZ at least)
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest

Sideobard: It is going through change with GSZ, still testing.
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Silence
1 Orim's Chant
1 Elvish champion
1 Elvish archdruid


To GoldenCig: So, I am still very fond of Chord of Calling, and taking it out has made me lose 3 very important cards for my old build: Mirror entity, Burrenton forge-tender, Yixlid jailer.

Chord becomes outstanding next to more Wirewood hivemasters, also adding Magus of the Moon to the side.

Losing this 3 cards makes up for more consistency and speed. I do fear Firespout and Pyroclasm a lot now, though, and I don't know what to do... Mirror entity used to be a MD protector against those cards, and then Burrenton was just outstanding. Anyone has any good ideas? That's why I added more lords to the side. I still need something good to make up for the huge aggro loss of Entity.

To K2thej: On running 16 lands vs. 13 or so: Some people only play 13 lands to reduce the number of them in the opening hands, but then they increase by a great deal the number of mulligans they take.
So it breaks down like this- Do we prefer the risk of having a 7 cards - 2-3 lands hand, or 6-5 cards - 1 land hand ?

You should also realize that only us and 13-land stompy run so few lands. The next Legacy deck to run the fewest lands run 18 of them, backep up by 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm.... and then some have 20, many 23, and many others 28. 16 lands is still a very low range number. 13 is, I belive, suicidal even with 8 Llanowars.

Ya after Namida posted earlier I realized you guys are completely right. I am testing both lists now.

The opening hand is not the main concern with 13 lands, the main concern is minimizing fizzling. We only need one land. Sure we run less lands than everyone else, but you cannot judge a deck where almost every single creature is a mana producer the same way that you judge the rest of legacy.

Also, if anyone wants to tell me how to quote multiple pats of a post/posts rather than the whole thing that would be awesome!

[Humphrey]

I present my take on this deck ^^

9 Forest
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Concordant Crossroads
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Food Chain
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Staff of Domination
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary

[NihilObstat]

I present my take on this deck ^^

The two decks that I use most frequently are Combo Elves and Berserk stompy, and in both deck people just keep trying to play Land Grant.
Land grant is only good for Belcher or Casual, and almost nowhere else. Daze, Spell pierce, Spell snare, even FOW will be GG if you keep a hand with a single Grant vs. a single Basic Land.

We have previously discussed why most people don't play Sylvan Messenger in combo elves, but I am really interested in why do you run Food Chain. I tend to have problems with fizzling not mana problems...

Staff of domination is your Glimpse number 5, although I still prefer Cloudstone curio.

Why run concordant crossroads when you have Emrakul? I know it works wonders next to Archdruid, but the more elves you can pack the better, I believe.

Also ElvishSpiritGuide looks a LOT more powerful next to Priest of titania than Archdruid.

Other than that your list looks like a mix between different options. Could we see your sideboard?


To k2thej I was writing my message while you wrote those 2 so I didn't see your answer, sorry ;)

To everyone: Now that I come across ESG again. I have had a couple games when I had a pact in hand and needed 1 mana to keep comboing and wished that I had 1 ESG in the deck. Could we consider running 1 to tutor or speed first turn, just 1? He's an elf afterwards so taps for mana next to Heritage ^^

[Humphrey]

I dont want to depend on the combo with Sentinels and Druids to much, thats why I added Foodchain and Archdruid. Archdruid can provide enough mana for Emrakul really fast and also you can just go Beatdown.
Sylvan Messanger and Visionarys are nuts with Foodchain, so you dont need Glimpse.
Staff and Crossroads are Winoptions with Archdruids if Emrakul doesnt show up.

Land Grant, i dont know yet. Never had it countered yet and usually you only need 1 Forest at the beginning. The upside of this, its a green spell that untaps Sentinels for free.

[Namida]

The deck I normally play is SI, and I have Goblin Charbelcher in my deck. Maximizing Charbelcher is the only legitimate reason to play Land Grant. I've lost a few games to Force of Will on a T1 Land Grant. Even if the number of times I've lost because I play Land Grant is only once, that number is at least one more than you should ever have to even fear in a deck like Elf Combo. The upsides to cutting the extra lands out of your deck in no way outweigh the added risk to your game plan.

[k2thej]

The deck I normally play is SI, and I have Goblin Charbelcher in my deck. Maximizing Charbelcher is the only legitimate reason to play Land Grant. I've lost a few games to Force of Will on a T1 Land Grant. Even if the number of times I've lost because I play Land Grant is only once, that number is at least one more than you should ever have to even fear in a deck like Elf Combo. The upsides to cutting the extra lands out of your deck in no way outweigh the added risk to your game plan.

Yup, it is just a fetch land that can be countered and that costs mana after turn one. It sucks just as much if you draw it mid combo. Absolutely no reason to play it.

[Elvish Visionary]

Hello everyone I have been following this thread since this past april but finally wanted to post my deck, I am really happy with my current build, Its nothing special but have had alot of great games with it.

7x Fetch
5x Forest
2x Bayou (going to make basic or one Tiaga)

4x Glimpse
4x Summoner's Pact

4x Llanowar
4x Fyndhorn
4x Birchlore
4x Herritage
4x Nettle
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Priest of Titania
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Joraga warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Emurkal
1x Banefire
1x Tendrils

Thats 61 right now but it works pretty good, as for the banefire it works pretty good especially with an active priest and wirewood/quirion.

I will be trying the Living wish version but I am not sure about the Archdurids. I have been thinking of playing around with it and trying to add gaea's cradle. I am sure I will hear that I have to change my deck, but who knows I may be taking it to SCG in washington, dc this weekend, if not definately Eddison, NJ

[magicplaya10]

I just wanted to comment on the living wish version. I absolutely love it. After testing a few games, it has pulled me out of some crap. The one thing that I have trouble with is enchantments, on occasion. With only Terrastadon as the only way to blow them up, does anyone else have an idea?
I was thinking of running Viridian Zealot main as a one of, that way we can combat CB maindeck, and not have to living wish for answers against moat, artifacts,etc.

[k2thej]

I just wanted to comment on the living wish version. I absolutely love it. After testing a few games, it has pulled me out of some crap. The one thing that I have trouble with is enchantments, on occasion. With only Terrastadon as the only way to blow them up, does anyone else have an idea?
I was thinking of running Viridian Zealot main as a one of, that way we can combat CB maindeck, and not have to living wish for answers against moat, artifacts,etc.

Ya I'm starting to notice that we need enchantment destruction before we can afford terrastodon as well. I might replace him with a zealot in the board though, since we can afford 4 mana to wish for him really easily. If the wish would be countered by CB then the zealot would have been anyway since they are the same CMC, so there's not really more of a risk by putting him in the board. The more I tested it the more I realized how infrequently we needed to kill 3 permanents at once, so I think this move would be a much more effective use of a board spot.

[Mr. Safety]

Hello everyone I have been following this thread since this past april but finally wanted to post my deck, I am really happy with my current build, Its nothing special but have had alot of great games with it.

7x Fetch
5x Forest
2x Bayou (going to make basic or one Tiaga)

4x Glimpse
4x Summoner's Pact

4x Llanowar
4x Fyndhorn
4x Birchlore
4x Herritage
4x Nettle
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Priest of Titania
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Joraga warcaller
1x Regal Force
1x Emurkal
1x Banefire
1x Tendrils

Thats 61 right now but it works pretty good, as for the banefire it works pretty good especially with an active priest and wirewood/quirion.

I will be trying the Living wish version but I am not sure about the Archdurids. I have been thinking of playing around with it and trying to add gaea's cradle. I am sure I will hear that I have to change my deck, but who knows I may be taking it to SCG in washington, dc this weekend, if not definately Eddison, NJ

It's been mentioned several times, but I feel that a lord maindeck is smart (besides Warcaller, which is more of a combo win card than a lord). I know you are using Priest to good effect with Banefire, but I would rather have Elvish Archdruid. He does the same functionally for producing huge gobs of mana, but also pumps your dudes allowing for an aggro win. The only thing I don't have for my deck is an Emrakul. He isn't horribly expensive, but I'm not sure about using him without Living Wish (I don't like the wish builds, for the same reason I don't like Green Sun's Zenith: it isn't an elf to fuel Glimpse) I am currently testing Tendrils over Grapeshot, but I'm a little old skool...I have always liked Grapeshot.

[k2thej]

It's been mentioned several times, but I feel that a lord maindeck is smart (besides Warcaller, which is more of a combo win card than a lord). I know you are using Priest to good effect with Banefire, but I would rather have Elvish Archdruid. He does the same functionally for producing huge gobs of mana, but also pumps your dudes allowing for an aggro win. The only thing I don't have for my deck is an Emrakul. He isn't horribly expensive, but I'm not sure about using him without Living Wish (I don't like the wish builds, for the same reason I don't like Green Sun's Zenith: it isn't an elf to fuel Glimpse) I am currently testing Tendrils over Grapeshot, but I'm a little old skool...I have always liked Grapeshot.

If you are worried about elf fuel think of it this way; whatever your storm kill is will be one card that isn't elf fuel, so that cancels out one wish. So there are two left. A cradle is another card that is not elf fuel, so if you have a cradle MD that cancels the second wish. Leaving only one wish that actually takes out a one drop (if you want to run three). the way I play it, The wishes only change the number of one drops in my deck by one, with the wishes I still have 28 one-drops, 4 visionaries, and 4 summoner's pacts, which I usually find to be plenty of combo fuel. That is exactly 3/5 of the deck that continue the combo even with the wishes in. Those are really good odds.

[Beautiful-Decay]

Hello fellow elf-players.

I've been working on my elf-combo deck for a while (though without playtesting much (only a few of my friends play legacy.) Anyway, please comment or add cards to my list:

Lands:

Mutavault x1
Wooded Foothills x1
Misty Rainforest x2
Windswept Heath x1
Verdant Catacombs x1
Savannah x1
Forest x3
Penalhaven x1
Gaea's Cradle x4
Horizon Canopy x1
-----16-----

Creatures:
Heritage Druid x4
Llanowar Elves x2
Fynhorn Elf x2
Arbor Elf x2
Quirion Ranger x2
Birchlore Rangers x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Elvish Visionary x4
Viridian Zealot x1
Wirewood Symbiote x4
Regal Force x1
Eternal Witness x1
-----31-----


Spells:
Glimpse of Nature x4
Summoner's Pact x4
Living Wish x3
Grapeshot x1
Crop Rotation x1
-----13-----
Deck size:
-----60-----

SB (Might need fixing):
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Viridian Zealot
x1 Emrakul, The Aeons Thorn
x4 Leyline of Lifeforce
x4 Thorn of Amethyst
x1 Caller of Claws
x1 Joraga Warcaller
-----13-----
Deck + SB
-----73-----