Phyrexian Crusader- May not be the best call. He" pro red and white. Seams good to meOriginally Posted by CorpT
Liliana Vess- It's a 2of. You play her late game. Why is she bad again??
18 land- You have 3 draw spells and 3 tutor spells. Then you have 4 Squadron Hawks and if 1 hit's the table he thins you deck by 3 more cards. Seams good to me
1 Scrubland- I guess you never lost to Wasteland. You must be the only play that hasn't. Some day you'll understand tho
Sign in blood- It's draw you 2 cards. That's good isn't it? How many cards do you draw off Bob? Maybe one because someone always kills him.
Random Singlrtons- You play tutors go get it.
Don't tell me that the deck can't win. That a bunch of BULLSHIT. You people need to try new ideas.
Trying to trade into power!!!
Hit me up if you have any unlimited power that isn't creased. Maybe we can make a deal.
@Goyf
as I ran no Vial i don't see the big advantage in splashing a third color, wasteland is in BW annoying enough (yes I know how good Goyf is, as I play on regular base against it). I for myself play around with Jötun Grunt atm. playing 2-3 in Main would open some sideboardslots that are designated to gravahate.
@Nighthawk
I wouldn't dare cutting him, he won me so many games, he lets you stabilize on really low life maybe having Bob out, kills every Creature without Firststrike and Power 3 and has flying.
@Phyrexian Crusader
In the "The Gate"-Thread was that Creature discussed some Pages long. Didn't made the cut in it. I see it in Deadguy similar. You don't want your Opponent at end of game on 9 Poison and 1 Life (worst case but who cares). He's in 90% a Wall of Denial without flying that will be killed by most Goyfs. Great
@Mirran Crusader
Mentionend him right after he was spoiled in here but he sits in the same spot as Nighthawk and Nighthawk is in my eyes far more versatile and fullfiles way more roles in the deck than Mirran could. Additionally with the Swords you need to hit the Player, which you can't garanty at most times. But as always, you need to test it in your meta.
@the Pharmacist
if you try to avoid Wasteland you play no Nonbasics, not one. Why one Scrubland, i find no reason in it.
Sign vs Bob = 0:1, Bob has drawn me an insane amount of cards, singlehandly killed opponents and can carry equipment. If you are worried that it get killed, play Dark Tutelage or Phyrexian Arena. He is not for nothing one of the most played Cards in Black
Beseech: I find Tutors outside from Combo or the Trinketmage-Toolbox a bit odd, never wished to had one during play
btw. for what exactly do you play reanimate?
If you would give us some insight in your choices and your overall gameplan you would get more serious and helpful answers, but at the moment i can unterstand CorpT cause it looked like he said it, a pile of white and black Cards
Last edited by Leto; 03-09-2011 at 04:12 PM. Reason: inclusion of Pharmacists post
You play Phyrexian Crusader cause you like the Protection of colors, why not just play Stillmoon Cavalier instead? Pro black/white makes it pretty good, also can have evasion. But then again it gets bolted. However it gets bolted just as much as Crusader gets whacked by Smother/For the Throat/Any other removal. Both also fight for spot with Vampire Nighthawk, which has evasion built in.
What are you using Lilianna Vess for? Turn 6 discard? Turn 7 tutor? Does this even sound good? There is better tutors and better dicard than this shaff.
If you are playing around Wasteland, you might as well go play standard. You are weaking your deck because you don't want a wasteland to blow up a land. If you play the Stifle-Proof mana base mentioned a while back, its pretty sturdy, and should be a little more Wasteland resilant. I think you need to just admit that the reason your not playing the set of scrublands is cause you don't have them.
Squadron Hawk is good, but i don't think you know why. "Thins your deck, wah wah wah". I have a problem with this for two reasons. People who are smarter than me have done the math that shows "Thinning your deck" isn't as good as you'd think. Besdies the fact most people thin their deck of lands (a commoditiy that you need earlier in the game, not as much at the end) to get to their business. You are adding in a creature that really is suboptial but gives you multiple flying threats, which is why its good, not the fact it thins your deck.
And really saying that Bob will only get you 1 card, and sign in blood is better, shows that you've never played with bob.
Playing Sign in blood is like playing cancel when counterspell exists. Regardless of the fact that 98% of the time Bob and phrexian arena are better options, theres even Night's Whisper to make sign in blood obsolete.
Also Beseech the queen? Again its like playing cancel since grim tutor exists.
And lilian vess is just terrible. If you want a 4cc planswalker bomb elspeth is defiantly the way to go.
Its not even a matter of not testing things. There are just infinity better options than the cards you have chosen.
As for phyrexian crusader, I didn't read the discussion on the gate, but I have read much of that thread to know that it is indeed a similar idea to this one. So if its not worth it there it probably isn't here either.
Ok, I'm not saying Pharmacist has developed the end-all be-all dead guy list, but when's the last time dead guy top-8'ed a major event? Is it time for someone to think outside the box? sometimes you have to work through the stupid cards and the "chaff" (not shaff) to find that golden nugget that simply wins games.
I'm sorry, but I just playtested the pharmasist list against reanimator and won by tutoring up sign in bloods and nighthawks with liliana vess while he had an archon and iona on the table. Sign in Blood is a direct damage spell OR draw against a lot of decks and can simply get you there in close games....but I guess there are no close games in legacy *rolls eyes*. If you play duals and fetches in a deck that only runs one or 2 plains there is no reason not to run sign in blood over night's whisper - it's simply a better card.
As for the bob vs Sign in blood comparison...if you really want you can play hawks and mystics and bob and just loose to firespout if you want - have fun with that. Honestly, you have to plan on seeing firespout and you simply cannot plan on making ANYONE discard it because of the pressense of Jace 2.0, Brainstorm and Top. Against a good Multi-color control player the deck simply folds without generating some sort of card advantage that doesn't depend on a 2/2 hanging out for multiple turns. If nothing else, sign in blood can ensure a turn 3 land drop and draw into things like Thoughtseize or duress. Sure Bob will *just win games* against people that don't bother with removal...but honestly against those people you can win with a grizly bear too.
As for Vess - she's a win con, a tutor, AND discard. She's a freaking house. if nothing else she's a tutor or discard and a fog as people swing wildly at her to try and keep you from just ending the game. Sure she's 5 mana...and there's 2 in the deck. Look at the Dead-guy list...it's control. Control needs a finisher. She doesn't die to swords, firestorm or any of the dominant removal in the format and she just ends games...plus she enables tool-box approaches for singleton cards to get you out of tight spots.
I love the beseech vs grim tutor comment - again, if you run duals and fetches in a deck that only runs one non-black land why is grim tutor better than Beseech? because beseec $0.10 and cheap cards don't win games? lol - as for whether tutors belong in a deck like dead-guy...who knows. I mean tool-boxes have been used successfully in non-combo legacy decks for ages...let me think of a good example...well, I guess Stoneforge mystic must suck too because he's a tutor for non-combo. I guess stuff like wish boards don't work either. And Green Sun's Zenith must also suck. Give me a break. Bottom line, tutors are used to enable consistency and provide outs to difficult situations - IN ANY DECK. Just because noone is doing it in Dead Guy right now doesn't mean it's right to ignore it - again, when's the last time dead guy top 8'ed?
And Reanimate is a house when you run 10 discard spells too...Reanimate Thrun or Iona just once and all of a sudden it doesn't seem like such an odd choice. The beauty behind the 2-of in a tool-box approach is that it won't really even hurt you in a game against combo or something where reanimate isn't optimal....because it's just 2 cards.
again...not saying that everyone should run out and spend $5 on a set of beseech and vess (LOL) but honestly - why dismiss something so completely out of hand without at least looking at the card selection and asking questions first...or even going through the motions of loading it onto a program that can goldfish hands for you? Dismissing new ideas is how a deck stagnates.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Bob is the best creature in the format. You're underestimating the power of SoFI and/or SoFF +Stoneforge with Mother of Runes and Bob. That's a total of 10 ways to protect your Bob against a Firespout, and that's not even counting the 8-10 discard spells. It's not even just dekcs that don't bother with removal, but all the decks that only give 4 slots for spot removal. What if they don't draw one of those 4? Bob reads "kill me or win." Plus, once you drop an equipment, you can turn him into a serious threat, even a "protection from Jace and Firespout" threat with SoFI.
Indy and San Jose? Seriously?
Beseech the Queen means you can't play Bob. I really don't think I should have to defend Bob on a competitive Legacy forum.
Good luck playing garbage decks. The deck is clearly playing sub-par cards. Maybe create a new thread somewhere else to discuss the amazing Beseech the Queen card. It has nothing to do with thinking outside the box or not testing. These are sub-par cards. If we had to test every single card, we'd still be working our way through Visions. Instead, we discard chaff and focus on good cards.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I was just about to mention this Greenpoe. Mom+Swords. And the deck DOES have win conditions. It has Nighthawk equiped and Serra Avenger Equiped. Once Equiped they both are out of Firespout range. If they get it off before you equip them, you still have Mom to keep them alive until you can get it.
You said yourself, tutors are great, thats what SFM is in here for. It tutors up the tool to get the job done.
Liliana tutor is horrible. You have to put it on the TOP of your library. And who really is thinking on turn 6 "Man i wish i had a discard spell" The list that you played was it his exact list? Or did you tweak the mana-base some? Cause that'd be the place where i would start.
CorpT, we have our disagreements sometimes, like when we're discussing a certain mono-black midrange deck, but you do play plenty, more than me, and I totally agree with you on this. And I don't even play the deck, which means I'm relying on theorycraft, which means that said deck fails at the theorycraft point, let alone playtesting.
Goblins is a deck that has arguably much better options for cheating the curve than this one. The low count on lands for that deck is 21 - 17 if you don't count Wasteland. The average is 22. That is a deck packing Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, and Goblin Warchief. To sum it up, you need more lands than that.
You're playing Vess in Legacy. Here's the thing: all of the planeswalkers have really good abilities, period. It's their cost that is prohibitive. If you gave me Vess at 3 or even 4 mana I would ride the Legacy train with her all night long. But she costs 5. She's competing with cards that are cheated into play, or are able to leverage such internal synergy, that they win the game or turn it around. Vess is neither of those two. The CA she provides is subpar, her ultimate is subpar, and her tutor ability is (guess what) subpar! In Standard, she may be worth it, extended, even. But she does not make the cut here.
Phyrexian Crusader, even in a non-poison deck, is something that I may understand. It's a house against Zoo, Goblins, and 4c Counterbalance. And it provides a decent (if slow) win-con. The problem is, they'll find a way to deal with it. After you've swung 3 or 4 times. And then you'll topdeck a non-poison creature. So, after a protracted resource battle, they still have 20 life, and you don't. You are now in the losing position. And don't say "but Vess tutors up a second!" because you do not run subpar cards to justify this need. That combo is nowhere near synergistic enough to warrant that.
Deck thinning has been debunked. If you can't deal, then happily run a subpar deck.
And I will happily report you for trolling if you cannot provide a well thought out and lengthy answer for the following question:
How is Sign in Blood a superior card than Dark Confidant? Let alone within the confines of this deck, how is Sign in Blood ever the competitive option when Bob is available?
I agree SFM is great, and I find it hillarious that a guy that said tutors are worthless in everything but combo was playing a maindeck tutor and bullet package.
After a multitude of fishing I tweaked the mana base and subbed some duress for verdicts to up my 1cmc spells and make my curve more realistic. I also did things like immediately ditching Beseech...lol. But after testing I understood WHY it was in there, which I couldn't figure out from fishing or just looking at the list. My point though was that I made plenty of use of Lilliana and sign in blood. I'd like to see the current dead guy lists find a way to play through archon and iona...
Again, not saying the list is optimaly, but I just don't understand how people can be so quick to dismiss ANY idea. Frankly if I can take a couple hours to test the deck without Bob I find it hard to believe that other people can't do the same. And we aren't testing every card in the format - we're testing what - 5 cards?
As for liliana - her tutor is great. Dead guy is control, getting to turn 6 isn't all that uncommon and getting exactly what you need to win at that point is helpful. Plus if you can do combat math you can quickly figure out if they need to swing out at Liliana or if you're just asking to be swung through and killed. She's a fantastic card...but again, not something I'd play with bob....so you have to start there. However, if you want to talk about late game tutor being useless...how about late game draw? If you play discard on turns 1 and 2, removal on turn 3...Bob doesn't see the board until turn 4 and doesn't draw you cards until turn 5, it isn't until turn 6 until he draws you the 2 cards that sign in blood gets you....and all that is without ANY cards to actually protect bob. If you play your protection before you play bob then you don't discard as much, or take more damage from creatures as you attempt to set-up...meaning bob's damage from his draw hurts even more.
I guess if you feel like you simply cannot play without bob then you need to drastically limit the card pool you use and therefor hamstring your deck and force an auto-loose to counterbalance strategies and a host of other issues. Bob is a great card - there's a reason he's expensive and played, but his use immediately restricts your options...which is fine if you don't want to do a lot of testing and tuning. But I thought this was the thread where testing and tuning was discussed...I guess the reality is that this is the thread where we all just talk about how great bob is...lol
Dead Guy in it's orign is based on mana denial, combined with the best discard in the format (thoughtseize and Hymn), combined with the best removal in the format (swords and Vindicate)...I think we can all agree with that premise. land destruction has become worse as a strategy in Legacy for a host of reasons so everyone is struggling to figure out what fills that void, while still maintaining the best discard with the best removal and maintaining the competitive edge.
In the deck's original form there was no need to protect bob because the land destruction and discard did it for you. Since the land destruction isn't viable and discard alone can't consistently protect bob alone most lists run a host of cards that are dedicated to protecting Bob - Mom, SoFI, SoFF, SFM, etc. I could make a case that these choices have even forced vial. Running cards to protect bob does not win you the game. Bob does NOT win you the game all on his own (despite people's comments)...he needs backup, the cards that he draws are what wins the game. When you include 10-20 cards to protect bob all you do is protect bob so that you can draw more cards to protect bob (taking damage the entire time).
What pharmacist has done is taken bob out the formulae in an attempt to still use the best discard and removal in the format and open the deck up to other options. With that in mind, his approach makes sense - some of his card choices are suspect, I agree, but reconsidering the approach to the deck is not wrong.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
the thing is, I tested alot without Bob, in every Deck I made that was B(xxx). Simply cause I didn't have them and didn't want to spend the money, cause I thought it was overrated. After lending some from a friend and some testing in the Net I realized just how good he is. And yes, to play Bob dedicates how the rest of the Deck looks. But in my opinion he's worth it, he generates drastic CA+can swing for damage (with the high count on removal in the deck he connects quite often).
If you want to play more slowly/have a higher Curve you could play Arena. 1 Mana more, but far more resilient and lower lifeloss on high Curve's (flipping Tombstalker, Persecutor, FoW or Else sucks with Bob ;) ). That would be a viable option in my eyes, especially when you want to stall the game out. Would make Liliana better too, but you need to find ways to keep the whole Bunch of Aggro in check.
Why can Deadguy not play around Blazing Archon? We have plenty of Removal, for Iona the same but in two colours, if you have much Reanimator (here in Germany is not much Reanimator left, after MT-Bann, as I read) and fear her, add some Gravehate/Runed Halo/Brittle Effigy...
PS: Yes I failed on the Tutor-thing, I was just back from work and tired, shame on me
Dead guy can play around archon - can you play around archon AND iona (naming white) on the board at the same time in game one? Good luck. Isolated incident...but still, I'm just trying to make a point that Sign in Blood and Lilliana are versatile cards that can get you out of pickle situations that stuff like Bob simply cannot.
One of my qualms with bob or Arena type effects is that they are easily dealt with by maindecked cards throughout the format and generally slow to yeild their CA - ESPECIALLY in dead-guy, because we really want to be landing our discard spells in the early turns when it matters most - not trying to resolve draw spells and make them stick to gain their advantage.
If the deck was aggro and it's goal was turn 1 Vial or Mom into turn 2 bob every game then things would be different. But if that is the goal then why do we run 7-8 removal spells and 8-10 discards spells? Generally I feel as though people are trying to force this deck into a counter-aggro strategy, trying to use discard spells as the countermagic - which doesn't work because discard is not a reactive control tactic...it's a proactive control tactic.
PS: I forgive you on the tutor thing...but it was funny.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Sorry I missed this.
The hope it gets there approach:
T1: Discard
T2: Discard
T3: Vindicate
T4: Bob
T5: Draw a card from bob (assuming they didn't have removal)
T6: Draw Second card from bob (again, assuming they didn't have removal)
The "what about bob" approach:
T1: Vial
T2: Discard, Mom off vial
T3: Discard, Bob off Vial
T4: Draw a card from bob
T5: Draw a card from bob
Sign In blood:
T1: Discard
T2: Discard
T3: Vindicate
T4: Threat
T5: SiB, Threat
Sign in Blood alternate:
T1: Discard - Oh snap I'm playing against ANT!
T2: Discard
T3: threat
T4: Threat, SiB my opponent
The difference? With sign in blood I could inflict direct damage to a tendrils player faster OR play threats faster in the early turns rather than just setting up my draw spells. While you're using your turns to set up your draw engine with Bob, SiB allows you to use your turns to set up your win condition or simply apply pressure to your opponent.
Feel free to report me for suggesting that new ideas be playtested....lol.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Archon + Iona (white) = depends on what you hold, if Sword + Black Removal shoot down Iona first, sword Archon, only an Edict, play it and see what happes ;) when you dont have removal, throw out an Gatekeeper or Nighthawk, does the same. Don't see where this gets any more complicated as Deadguy is more capable of dealing with creatures than most decks^^ (Iona on black is in my opinion far more worse as you can play nothing but Swords)
The 2 damage on an Opponent are nice, but with Sorceryspeed its not good enough i think. In Instant it would be so great to fuck the Comboplayer who goes with AdNauseam to 2, but in Sorcery its subpar. And giving an Opponent (especially Comboplayer) 2 Cards for 2 Lifepoints is something, i wouldn't be happy about.
And the Argument that with Bob is easily dealt, doesn't go so well. Goyf is easily removed too. Doesn't bother all the Goyfplayers. Same goes for the vast amount of Critters. SiB lies full on CB, Spellsnare... its the same
See....but that's the point, Goyf is not easilly dealt with - he doesn't roll over to firespout. Also the decks that he goes in are either threat heavy (a bunch of little aggro dudes) or counter heavy. He's usually at least a 3/4, and a 4/5 or 5/6 isn't all that uncommon, and he is the win condition, not a guy that might go find the win condition. When you pool your rescources to protect your draw spells you inherently have less room for resources that protect your win condition. I don't want to protect my draw spell, I want to protect my win con - my goal is not to draw cards, my goal is to win games.
I'm not saying that Bob is bad because "he dies to removal" I hate that argument -that's a dumb argument and I agree. I'm saying that the likelyhood of you gaining benefit from bob hinges on the fact that he won't die to removal in a late game situation - or you have to all but abandon the discard first strategy of dead-guy to take advantage of him. It's just counter-intuitive.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Bokwinkle, you're saying that you have to choose between discard and playing Bob? That's like saying 4c CB has to choose between going aggro or control. The reality is that for many decks, you do have to choose between being the control player vs. the aggro player. Even Goblins sometimes has to resort to the control role (that's why they play Port). You say that you're relying on Bob not to die to removal in the lategame, but that's like saying Jace decks rely on Jace not to die after 2 turns. If you're staring down Jace or Bob, you have to kill it or they'll just mow you down in CA. Plus, Deadguy is fantastic at protecting Bob (again, discard+Mom+equipment package). It sounds like your basic argument is that Bob is too slow, but compare it to Eva Green. Eva Green is faster with a strong early/mid game while Deadguy thrives more toward the mid/late game (because of the equipment), but even Eva Green runs Bob. Heck, the most successful Affinity build I ever ran played Bob, and in that deck, you would often win by turn 3 or 4, but on the games you didn't, you generally had a weak hand OR a hand with a win-con that got countered/killed. Bob would either suck up a counter/removal that would hit Cranial Plating/Master of Etherium/etc., or he'd draw me cards so I could re-establish a win-condition. Even Vintage combo decks play Bob.
My favorite part is the argument that Sign in Blood can shock someone but disregarding the fact that Bob can attack. It can even do 2 damage without letting the opponent draw cards! How novel!
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
So you attack with Bob? It must be nice to be able to play Bob and have it never die. Then your opponents must never play men because you can swing with him too.
This will be my last post in this thread for 2 reasons
1st no one in this thread wants to try new things
Edited. Threats of violence towards other members, joking or otherwise, are absolutely not tolerated here. Consider this an official warning. - zilla
Trying to trade into power!!!
Hit me up if you have any unlimited power that isn't creased. Maybe we can make a deal.
It's more the fact that your arguments are pretty weak and your card choices are so far out there that it is actually difficult to take them seriously. Have you actually posted results with your build? A tournament report or something?
The question I have with this thread is: if the Tarmogoyf splash is so good, why aren't we just playing Junk instead? It seems like a case of being a bad version of another deck, rather than an actual separate strategy.
@Pharmacist
Would be cool if you would explain your choices and strategy, rather than posting a pile and sayin its good and won games. Look how Bokwinkle does it, he ARGUES, nothing seen from you, that looks like you try too
I don't think Goyf is this huge in Deadguy, with Percy and Grunt we have strong Beater that smoke him up
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