Dark Confidant is probably the best creature in the format. If your deck can afford to run him (due to not too punishing an average CMC, and overal synergy) and doesn't, chances are astonishingly high that you built it wrong - that is, with suboptimal cards in it.
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
Yes, this is where I'm going...sort of. My argument is that I have to make the decision between aggro and control, but bob is good at neither in this particular deck. I know this sounds rediculous since Bob is obviously a good card that does some wonderful things and I make it sound like he's just not good at all...but that's not my intent. I'll give a situation:
I need to be the aggro deck:
I run out bob early (turn 2 or something) to force some aggro following a T1 Thoughtseize. Now, I have a bear to beat with that may draw me some cards. However, what i draw is one of 4 things - Protection for my bear, discard, removal, or Land. You see, bob is not a win-con. Playing an early bob just puts me in a situation where I can try and force control harder...it doesn't signficantly advance me into an aggressive board position.
If I need to be the control deck:
I run out my discard and removal early and the play bob late (turn 4 or 5 or something). My opponent has seen between 11 and 20 cards (depending on match-up) in order to get the one piece of removal he needs before I can establish the protection for bob.
Now, if I'm playing against an aggressive deck I'm probably facing down a board of creatures and my life total is probably already depleated from attacks and/or thoughtseize, so ripping any 2+ CMC card from bob is goign to suck pretty hard, so bob puts me in a pickle to play a very close game - even getting thoughtseize is a lighting bolt.... If i'm playing against a control deck then chances are they have found at least one piece of removal, meaning I won't be seeing the extra cards I need to fight a top-deck war against a deck with better card quality.
You see when I play SiB over bob I also gain all of the spots in the deck that are currently being used to protect bob - so I can make the deck more threat dense and versatile and get more garunteed draw of those cards regardless of what my opponent is playing - putting me in a better situation to play either aggro OR control. With bob I have basically one choice - protect bob.
As for CorpT, the argument is not that SiB is better than Bob because it can shock. The argument is that SiB is better than Night's Whisper because it can shock. The argument that SiB is situationally better than bob is because you're garunteed 2 cards for less life loss with no worry about the fragility of the creature - therefore opening your deck up for more options - and that is only a very miniscule part of the argument. If you didn't have such a financial and emmotial tie to any particular card, and an insistence that you're deck is the end-all be-all of Dead-Guy lists then you could actually take a couple minutes to read the posts.
As to Pharmacist's non-responsiveness regarding his list. He posted it looking for input. Not all people have the disposition to sit and argue card choices with people that regard them as idiots before they even evaluate the deck. Sometimes people are just going to get pissed off and leave. He offered the ideas, what everyone does with them is what separates winning players from people who just play the same list week after week into mediocrity.
This thread is the most viewed active thread on the source among established lists, and yet the changes in the list are minimal at best. there is so much time and man-power here that it's not unreasonable to question EVERYTHING. Obviously starting with questioning Bob is tough nut - there is noone posting here that doesn't think the card is fantastic. Force of will is good too...but it doesn't belong in every blue deck.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no financial or emotional tie to anything in the deck. I am perfectly willing to try new things. I'm not willing to try obviously sub-par cards.
Here's my problem with SiB. When I want CA, I want lots of CA. SiB doesn't do that. For 2 mana, it draws you one extra card. With Bob, not only can I Vial it in for 0 mana (at end of turn no-less to dodge some removal), but it keeps drawing me cards.
Let's look at real MUs instead of hypothetical aggro or control MUs.
CB/Top: This is where Bob is the best. No question. After Vial, Bob is the card I want to land against CB. They have some CA, but we can have as much or more. CA is what wins this MU. SiB is barely CA. Bob is real CA. And can be Vialed in.
Goblins: This is another grind. They can explode, but it doesn't happen as often as people make it out to be. Most of the time it's a Ringleader grind. Guess what, CA is good in a grind. SiB looks pretty stupid when compared to Ringleader. Additionally, Bob can block and kill a Piledriver. Yes, they can kill it, but getting 1 card isn't the answer. Sticking one and getting lots of cards is.
Combo: These are difficult to lump together, but the general idea is to get hate and then a quick clock. Bob doesn't exactly shine here, but neither does SiB. My ideal start to a combo MU is a Vial into Thoughtseize/Wasteland. Outside of that, it's Thoughtseize into some beats. Dark Confidant isn't the best here, but it is a beater that provides more beaters or hate.
Rock: Again, CA is the key here. Yes, Bob dies. But if/when it doesn't, it wins games.
I think that's the point that everyone is trying to make. Bob wins games when he sticks. So, if they have removal, you spent either a turn with Vial or 2 mana and they spent some amount of mana and a card. Usually that's a fair trade. But if they don't have removal, the card drawing will enable you to win. I have no idea how or why you think Bob isn't a win condition. He certainly lets me win games. CA wins games. SiB draws one whole extra card for 2 mana. That doesn't win games.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
ok, assuming you see SiB in the Spot of Bob, reducing the total Creaturecount to 12 (?) (Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and?)
i would like to see a list, that would be much better to discuss, cause we both construct here examples in our favor, getting no step forward^^
Ok, after doing some research on the recent (January) winning deadguy lists that CorpT so kindly point out there are a few things I want to point out (that many of you may already know).
First: The winning lists are no longer running mass discard...no Hymn, only Thoughtseize, and maybe a couple of IoK's and perhaps a couple of duress in the board. So instead of the 8-10 that the list originally ran, now they run 4-6 1cmc discard spells.
Next: Sinkhole has been replaced by wasteland - which makes perfect sense.
Last: with the ellimination of sinkhole and discard from the lists they now run 20+ creatures (Mom, Bob, Serra Avenger Or Nighthawk, SfM, and Sculler). It's an aggro list - which as I said above, is good for bob. He's good in a threat-dense deck, because you can turn him sideways and his draws can accellerate you into aggro. Also the ellimination of hymn means that T2 is reserved for bob and forcing aggro strategem. It's clean, simple aggro - and it's nowhere near the original decklist...but it wins.
I guess I'm just not satisfied with Pure Aggro and I still have a desire to play Hymn.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I think part of the problem is that DGA is not really designed as an Aggro Deck or Control Deck - in reality, it is a Tempo deck that has attributes of the former ideas, yet runs enough goodstuff cards to do either job adequately.
The reason why this deck is effective is that it actually can do both. You can open with Mom and Vial in Tidehollows and use removal, or you can immediately Stoneforge into Swords and a stick to equip to, or it can just play creatures, and out card-advantage people with Bob and Swords.
IMO, the discard package should be:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Tidehollow Sculler
Sculler also has the advantage of not only being able to be Vialed in during their draw step or end step, but also hiding things outside of their GY and hand. That was very big against Dredge as a dredger in the yard is bad, but amazing under a Sculler.
The problem with Hymn and Sinkhole is that they are not always the right card for the situation. You remember those games where the Sinkhole blew someone out of the game, but forget the games where you spent a whole turn and 2 mana doing basically nothing as they had plenty of land in their hand. The same thing with Hymn. Sometimes you crush their hand and ride it home. Other times you draw it after they've played their threat you can't deal with, and it's a 2 cmc stuck in your hand doing nothing. The variance is my problem with those cards. You have no control over how many lands they draw so it is very hard to judge if Sinkhole will be useful or not.
The recent BW lists aren't pure aggro either though. They're built on being a balanced deck that has consistent draws and plenty of CA.
You play enough removal to deal with threats and push your guys through. You play enough disruption to stop combo and control decks. You play enough CA to grind out mid range decks. You play enough threats to aggro everyone quickly.
IMO, that's what makes this deck so good. It's not about being the best at destroying someone's hand. It's about being balanced so you can do all of them well enough. The key to that is bringing beats with everything which is why I play Goyf. You need to kill quickly so the disruption you play is enough, but you're not an aggro deck like Zoo either. If you play it like that, you probably won't have much success either.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Just to point out that mom (I recommend if you have two out) can create Psedo-Evasion by giving bob protection and just swinging through a one colored army. It happens more than you think.
Befor i got hooked on this, i was a HUGE UWT fan, but have found that this is a deck that takes care of business better than UWT. (I miss Vexing Sphinx, but we do have Bob).
CorpT's list is interesting, because i'm still not sold on Vial. Perhaps you can help me with this as it seems you play a Vial list. Do you use the Vials to play the extra stuff you draw? Is that your reasoning behind them?
I'm of the 12 disruption spell camp, especially since combo will be on the rise for a bit
4x thoughtseize
4x hymn to tourach
4x tidehollow sculler
@ the Tarmogoyf argument- if you wanna play goyf, may as well play BWG/Junk/Rock/Dark Horizons (why does this deck have 4 names???), personally i like Reliquary over goyf, but there's no reason to dilute the 2 color manabase with one card when you can change 10 cards and play Rock or go Junk & Taxes...
back to my posts a couple pages back---what does everyone use to battle zoo?? vampire nighthawk? my problem is that the zoo player in my playgroup also plays NO/PRO combo in it...techy bastard
what does everyone run in theire SB??
i'm looking at
3x extirpate
3x ethersworn canonist
3x yixlid jailer
2x jotun grunt
2x diabolic edict
2x pithing needle
other cards considered: runed halo, perish, duress, peacekeeper, silence/orim's chant, cop:red, wrath of god/damnation, kitchen finks, engineered plague, mindbreak trap, ravenous trap
My signature.
I am experimenting with an WBG deck as well. I wanted to play the best creatures I could think of in a deck with vial and came up with this thing:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
3 Mother of runes
3 Stoneforge mystic
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Tidehollow sculler
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Aether vial
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon canopy
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Marsh flats
2 Verdant catacombs
2 Windswept heath
It is greedy because green is more than just a light splash, but the deck has proven to be quite powerful so far. IMO knights are just too powerful not to play if you’re playing with green anyway. All the potential replacements pale in comparison. I am not sure about the two vindicate slots; they could be anything from qasali pridemages, an extra land and sword, some more discard, etcetera…
Sideboard is a combination of combo hate (canonists and discard), graveyard hate, creature hate and stuff that can blow up enchantments.
Anyone tried out something like this (CorpT?) or has something to say about it? (besides pointing out that I may as well play junk).
Ok, I have a few more thoughts here.
First off, I'm now firmly in the 22 land camp, and firmly against splashing for a third color. Wasteland is the most played card in the format, and playing colored spells can already be difficult with 4 wastelands. You can't dodge wasteland, and you may be able to play around it, but adding the third color really isn't necessary - Goyf is a house and all, but we really just need someone to carry a big stick - and honestly I'd rather have a flyer do that anyway...which there is no shortage of in black and white.
However, if I play 22 lands I dont' think I can play vial - which is fine with me, I hate drawing late-game vials or being so easilly shut out by pithing needle - Which they are already bound to board in against wasteland, Mom, and fetch lands. Plus it leaves me the freedom to play Nighthawk without worrying about impacting synergy on a card I don't really like anyway. Also it leaves 2 more spots to include those last 2 1cmc discard spells that I want to fill out my curve and disruption package. Generally I loose some ability to play through control and my scullers loose some functionallity, but I feel like just playing Nighthawk is enough to make up for that - I really think he is that good. The reasoning is my own, but the strategy is already established in one of the winning lists.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I think there are a few common decision points and a few things that are universal when looking at this deck:
Universal:
4x Dark Confidant
3-4x Mother of Runes
3-4x Stoneforge Mystic
2-3x Equipment w/1 Jitte
4x Wasteland
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
These are the cards that I've seen that are almost in all the decks and powerful enough to span all metas.
Decisions:
3rd Color (aka Green):
Pros: Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, sideboard options like Gaddock Teeg, Krosan Grip, etc...
Cons: Weaker mana base and more susceptibility to Wasteland.
IMO: Worth it. The mana base is very lightly impacted because the splash is fairly light. It becomes even easier with Vials. Additionally, Goyf and KotR allow you to kill quickly so you can race creature and combo decks.
Vials:
Pros: Allows you to work around Counter Balance. Allows you to play curve out while disrupting at the same time.
Cons: Weak top deck late in the game.
IMO: Worth it. One of the most powerful cards in Legacy right now. The ability to curve out so well in the early game by playing creatures and disruption while still having mana to equip. The downside of being a bad late game top deck is tempered by the fact that we're hopefully out card advantaging them with Bob and/or Equipment.
Tidehollow Sculler:
Pros: Hand disruption and body.
Cons: Not permanent hand disruption.
IMO: Worth it. Improved tremendously by Vial. Not as impressive without Vial, but still a good call most of the time.
Vampire Nighthawk:
Pros: Flier, Lifelink, Deathtouch.
Cons: 2/3 for 3.
IMO: Possible, but not worth it. Personally, I like to keep my Vials active by sticking with 2 drops in the creature slot.
Knight of the Reliquary:
Pros: Huge beater. Allows for running of specialty land (Maze, Karakas, Horizon Canopy)
Cons: Requires green splash. Three drop instead of two drops. No evasion.
IMO: Not worth it. This is probably the card I would most go to a 3 drop for. Again, for me this comes down to a Vial issue.
Vindicate:
Pros: Kills anything. Anything.
Cons: That's all it does. Three mana.
IMO: I'm playing 2 now and they've been fine. I don't often need them, but they are generally nice when I get them. Not sure what I would play in their place. Possibly Qasali Pridemage.
Serra Avenger:
Pros: Flys. Vigilance. 3/3 for 2.
Cons: Hard to play natural for both WW and turn restriction.
IMO: Ok, but must play Vials to be truly effective. Worse in a 3 color deck as well.
Equipment Package:
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Jitte: Cannot imagine the deck without it.
SoFaI: IMO, the best equipment. Drawing cards and extra, assignable damage is great. Protections are not particularly important except against Firespout, Vendillion Clique and Jace.
SoLaS: Good against Swords. Better protections (aka Swords), but not as useful of abilities. Creatures tend to not to go to GY. Life gain is useful, but 3 at a time is not a lot.
SoFaF: Weakest abilities, but good protections. Pro-Tarmogoyf is very powerful.
Land Count:
20: IMO too few even with 2 Colors or Vial.
21: IMO Possible with Vial and/or 2 Colors.
22: IMO Better without Vial and/or more 3 drops, especially KotR.
23: IMO Probably too much unless a significant amount of specialty lands like Maze, Karakas, etc...
Fringe cards:
Qasali Pridemage: Exalted and ability to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments is powerful. Better with Vial. Still a Creature. Potentially hard to cast.
Hymn to Tourach: IMO, very weak. BB requirement is steep. Bad top deck. Powerful, but unreliable.
Sinkhole: Even worse than Hymn for all the same reasons.
Squadron Hawk: Testing this out. I really like the CA engine. An unrestrictive, easy to cast flier on 2 fits with my keep-all-creatures-on-2 theme.
Those are the cards as I see them. I can certainly understand the arguments for cards like Knight and Nighthawk, but IMO, the 3rd color is well worth it. I am completely sold on Vials as well. They have been crucial in both getting through CounterTop and making the mana work so much better. Keeping my creatures on 2 means that I can play without Vial, but everything is much better with it.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Great write-up, just a few things im looking at:
Slow combo is good right now (ANT, Tide, Show) which means hymn is good right now.
Rock is good right now because it has game against slow combo.
We have a good matchup vs. Rock and we can play hymn.
We should play hymn at the moment.
Counterbalance is in decline right now due to the diverse metagame-it can't focus on particular "top decks"
Aether Vial is good vs. counterbalance, but doesn't play well with Vampire Nighthawk.
Serra Avenger is a tough call w/o Aether Vial.
Squadron Hawk is evasive, can carry equipment, and provides C/A.
We should drop Vial and Avengers for now and run twin 'hawks (NightHAWK and squadron HAWK) you like that huh, lol
realize these are metagame observations people, this is my point of view and i prefer vial+avenger+hymn all in my MD...
My signature.
I can definitely see arguments for Hymn, but I'm still not sure about it. It's unreliablity is my issue with it. That being said, I think that Vial makes Hymn even better. The ability to drop a Vial on turn 1 and Hymn on turn 2 is exceedingly powerful. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn sounds powerful, but you have literally nothing but land on the board. Without pressure, slow combo like High Tide has plenty of time to build their hand back up. But, if you've got a Vial, you can start laying creatures quickly to keep the pressure up while disrupting them at the same time. IMO, Vial isn't just an anti-CB card, but also an amazing Tempo card.
I really like Hawk. It's been very powerful for me. Not only does it get itself out of the deck to help with Bob activations, but it carries equipment very well. I like going up to a 3/3 SFM/Equip split with Hawk to make sure that I always have an equipment for him.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I'm actually debating sideboard Vials against counterbalance. Against any other match-up the card just seems sub-par to me. I know it's good with sculler, but honestly I'm already finding myself wanting to go to 3 scullers.
However, if I were to play vial I'd probably play a couple Jotun Grunt as well - he plays really well with Squadron Hawk while still fitting in nicely in the 2 cmc spot and avoiding firespout. Plus he adds some main-deck utility against grave-happy decks like dredge and reanimator - who both have issues dealing with creatures.
I'm firmly in the camp of squadron hawk over serra avenger at this point...with or without vial. The card advantage is really all I'm looking for - as long as the creature can carry a stick I don't really care. Getting a dude into play early and swinging is pretty key. Waiting for a vial activation on turn 3 or waiting for a the turns restriction to pass to turn 4 is simply a pain in the rear end and is contradictory in purpose because it upsets our tempo...which is really all we have.
Hymn...I'm back and forth on. I really like it, but it changes the face of the deck a bit and really messes with the mana base. When the deck originally ran Hymn there were almost no white cards in it...now at least 1/2 of the deck is white and the mana base has changed substantially. At this point I'd consider verdict as a poor substitue, but I don't think I could support hymn.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Is this in the build with Goyf? And if so, what did you cut to fit in Squadron Hawks?
The version I'm running is similar to Gene R.'s build with Vial/Avenger, but I cut the Edicts for more creatures. I like the Goyf idea, but wouldn't Savannahs be more useful then Bayou?
In regards to Hawk, I really like being able to Vial in a 3/3 flyer or 4/4 in against something like Merfolk or Goblins to act as free removal, but the card advantage is important. I'd like to try running both Avenger and Hawk.
That's a really awesome point. I had started with Grunt and ended up a little disappointed in them because they kept dying on me. But that was before I tried Hawk. I think I'm going to go back and try them again. That's just an awesome interaction.
Agreed.I'm firmly in the camp of squadron hawk over serra avenger at this point...with or without vial. The card advantage is really all I'm looking for - as long as the creature can carry a stick I don't really care. Getting a dude into play early and swinging is pretty key. Waiting for a vial activation on turn 3 or waiting for a the turns restriction to pass to turn 4 is simply a pain in the rear end and is contradictory in purpose because it upsets our tempo...which is really all we have.
This is my current list:
3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Possible considerations:
-2 Vindicate
+2 Qasali Pridemage
Something for Grunt? Not sure what yet.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Yeah, I'd been playtesting Grunt without Vial and just generally was dissapointed with them - Mostly because they have similar disadvantages to avenger because of their play restrictions, and I already mentioned that I felt play restrictions are bad for this deck. I feel like a 2-of is about as much as I'd run. I like the synergy, but I feel like unless you can drop them on your opponent's end step and avoid sorcery speed removal they will never have a chance to use their ability or attack. Ultimately you just have to playtest them extensively.
He's a 4/4 - honestly, he takes the goyf spot IMHO, and you ramp up to 4 SfM's and add another removal spell (probably vindicate).
One other thing...I'm finding Go for the Throat to be better than Edict. There's just too many birds and or Hierarch's running around for my taste to run edict. Also, it's better against the goblin and merfolk matchup to deal with lords and/or siege-gang. The only match-ups where I see Edict helpful are against decks that run Emmy...but I generally feel those are just matchups we have to dodge at this point...I feel we simply cannot pack enough discard and hate for those decks.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Grunt with Tarmogoyf is awful synergy. I like Grunt a lot in the b/w version, but when splashing green, i would avoid him
It only seems like aweful synergy, but the reality is that if either of them stay on the board then you are winning, so it doesn't really matter. However, I don't think there is room for both of them.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
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