[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Koby]

Any consideration for Journey to Nowhere? Or is it being a prison card not suitable for creature removal where StP and PtE are both cheap and permanent.

[_erbs_]

@rukcus
I use journey to nowhere as my backup removal its not that great but it gets the job done. I feel its much better over oust bec you still get to kill a creature if your opponent will hit it with pridemage or spend another resource via disenchant, etc. as compared to oust which your opponent will surely re cast that threat again. Another reason my i picked journey as my backup removal it also doubles up against show and tell decks as compared to pte which can't deal with them. As for PTE in GT its not that bad bec GT doesn't have the mana denial strength as compared to mono w, but again pte is a very situational card when used properly is perfect aswell.

[TheShaun]

With Mangara, O Ring, and Karakas, I didn't get the feeling that this deck had any concern whatsoever with Emrakul, other than when he is Sneak Attack'ed in.
I haven't tried Oust yet, but I actually think it might have a place in this deck. You are right that it doesn't remove the threat all together, but it does slow a deck down. The big problems for this deck are things like turn 1 Lackey or Nacatl. Using an Oust means that those decks won't be attacking until turn 3 at the earliest, which is an enormous help. I don't think Ousting a turn 1 Lackey is a waste at all, because by turn 3 you're going to have a blocker out. Without Oust, Mother of Runes or StP are your only chances of stopping the guy, and once he starts connecting it's pretty much game over. I'm going to give it some serious testing in the sideboard for Zoo and Goblins, as both of those matchups pretty much depend on Taxes just surviving the first 4 turns. If it gets to that point, Taxes will almost always take over the game and end up winning. Path to Exile seems a bit riskier to me when used for this purpose, as ramping them on turn 1/2 is a pretty big effect, especially for a deck running Waste/Port. Path obviously gets much better as the game goes longer, when mana denial stops being significant.

[Finn]

As to pathing a turn one lackey, well I'm not thrilled about it but I'd rather do that than let them get the 5 mana that turn.

"It's better than nothing" is about as weak an argument as you can possibly make here. Try making this comparison using Path and Oust instead of Path and a grilled cheese sandwich.

Which hurts more: Your opponent getting an extra basic land or your opponent replaying a cheap threat that you've already had to use 1 removal spell on?

You are also not making an accurate comparison. The actual comparison is that the opponent gets a free land or (in most cases) gets the threat back 1.5 turns later. Path is not only tempo disadvantage, it is card disadvantage as well. And, for the record, Ousting the Lackey we are discussing is excellent. On turn 1 a Lackey is a bomb. On turn 3 it is pretty mediocre unless the goblin player has something like another Lackey, a Warchief, and a Piledriver also in play on turn 3. We know that this will not be the case because we took out the Lackey that facilitates that start. In fact, in my testing, my opponent usually did not even replay the Lackey right away. You may want to consider the relevance of that.

I use journey to nowhere as my backup removal its not that great but it gets the job done. I feel its much better over oust bec you still get to kill a creature if your opponent will hit it with pridemage or spend another resource via disenchant, etc. as compared to oust which your opponent will surely re cast that threat again.

Yet another person who is not making a proper comparison. Oust does not put the creature in the opponent's hand. The opponent can use a Pridemage to destroy Journey, costing him a card, or he can redraw the ousted creature two turns later, using a drawn card. Even total mana spent between players is pretty close to a wash.

Guys, I don't want to oversell the benefits of Oust. But, I can tell you that I am plenty familiar with the inner-workings of this deck and I have actually tested all these cards (well not Journey) and I can tell you that Oust has been the least bad secondary removal spell against the opponents we need it most against. Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Bant, Horizons, etc. It comes out against MUD of course, as well as most control and combo after game 1 (we have plenty of good sb cards for them and something has to come out). In most circumstances I have encountered, the sorcery-ness of it has been a nonfactor. Goblins,ehh, it is occasionally kinda clunky. SGC and hasty guys are certainly happy that it is not an instant. But Goblins with a splash color gets rocked by D+T due in part to their high CMC versus our denial, and I will not be giving them lands. Even still, I am not asking you to take me at my word. Of us, I think I am the only person to actually try Oust. At any rate, I just encourage you to take those crappy Paths out and use whatever else you like.

@deviant, mana denial is an issue often enough that I don't want a card that diminishes that part of the disruption suite when I can get a very similar effect from a card that does not. D+T has a bajillion ways to handle pesky creatures if it can just keep up on tempo. Oust works toward that goal where Path works against it.

[Star|Scream]

EDIT: @Fry, I think that is definitely worth testing. Funny thing about L+S is that what I usually want is the life gain and the +2 bonus. Jitte can already do that. I want to give F+F a try myself.

The only reason I've ever been happy to see L&S is against swords, elspeth tokens or the mirror.

I think (am hoping!) that being pro firespout, goyf, kotr, terastodon, and still letting our revokers be pro pridemage, and our canonists pro-grip will help. Now we just need a pro-emrakul sword.

[Koby]

Now we just need a pro-emrakul sword.

Tajuru Preserver

[Star|Scream]

Tajuru Preserver

"in monowhite"

[CorpT]

Why are you limiting yourself to just white? Adding a color is not hard and provides significant benefits. That being said, Tajuru Preserver is a pretty bad way to deal with Emrakul as it still bashes for 15 in the air.

[lebarion]

Why are you limiting yourself to just white? Adding a color is not hard and provides significant benefits.

I guess that's because the mana denial plan is stronger in mono white.

[Star|Scream]

I guess that's because the mana denial plan is stronger in mono white.

In my case I just hate playing GREEN.

[Fry]

I love playing green, but I do a mono white death and taxes because the mana denial plan is so much more effective than if you splash a color.

[chags]

From the looks of it monowhite is the favored version of death and taxes in this thread but seeing as it does not have its own thread I figured I'd talk about my Green and Taxes list here in case anyone preferred that version. I played in two events at last week's Edison New Jersey Star City Open. My list was a take on Lewis Laskin's list with some besieged cards and a retooled SB. I talked to Laskin during the standard event about the changes and he seemed in favor of them and gave me some input on other cards he had tried in the deck. After our discussion my 75 came out as follows:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Noble Hierarch

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plains
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Runed Halo
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile

I used an enlightened tutor SB because I was bothered by my lack of answers to Progenitus as well as my inability to combat combo decks without drawing my hate cards. Enlightened tutor allowed runed halo against progenitus, I had a reliable way to get ethersworn canonist, choke was great against control, dueling grounds felt amazing in the tribal matchups, and aura of silence was there for control and the enchantress decks I had seen running around on Saturday. I am considering cutting the Aura of Silence in favor of Null Rod in the future since my combo match up is so rough.

On Saturday I played in the legacy challenge going 4-0 in the event. I faced off against spiral tide in round one winning 2-1 thanks to gaddock teeg and GSZ. I played ANT in round two and won 2-1 thanks to him flipping his second ad nauseum off the first for lethal. Round three I beat junk 2-0 and round four I beat 43 Lands 2-0. Sunday I played in the main event and finished 32nd going 6-3. My wins came from landstill (uwb) [2-1], Fish twice [4-0], Laskin Bant [2-1], 4C counterbalance [2-0], and Dredge [2-0]. I lost to Deedstill (ubg) [1-2], Combo Elves (ug) [0-2], and 12 post [0-2].

Serra Avenger was a house all day and won me multiple games. The tutor sideboard worked amazingly well and played much better then my old board was. GSZ is ridiculous but I think everyone has figured that part out already. Over all I loved the deck and how it played, I just wish I had drawn Mangara more often, especially against 12 post.

[_erbs_]

@chags
how is GsZ working for you ?

[Whippoorwill]

You are also not making an accurate comparison. The actual comparison is that the opponent gets a free land or (in most cases) gets the threat back 1.5 turns later. Path is not only tempo disadvantage, it is card disadvantage as well. And, for the record, Ousting the Lackey we are discussing is excellent. On turn 1 a Lackey is a bomb. On turn 3 it is pretty mediocre unless the goblin player has something like another Lackey, a Warchief, and a Piledriver also in play on turn 3. We know that this will not be the case because we took out the Lackey that facilitates that start. In fact, in my testing, my opponent usually did not even replay the Lackey right away. You may want to consider the relevance of that.

Its also not uncommon for Goblins to start with Vial on turn 1 which nullifies quite a bit of your mana denial strategy. I don't think it would be too uncommon for them to Vial in a Warchief turn 4 then play a Piledriver and/or other Goblins. Situations like this is where Oust is terrible since its a Sorcery. I agree with you that its great early on against Lackey, but Goblins also leads with Vial when it doesn't have Lackey. And when they Vial in things at eot, you're stuck with that Oust in your hand hoping you survive to get another turn.

You also ignored the point I had made about Siege-Gang Commander which is a fairly relevant threat since it's one of the main ways for them to kill Mom.

I'll concede that Oust is good in the first few turns, but the longer the game goes, the worse it gets. And I can agree that Path is pretty much the opposite. I still prefer to be permanently finished with a threat though and much prefer the Instant speed.

[Derayler]

I love this deck personally. I feel like splahing black would be good, but the more I look into the deck the more I see how different it is from everyother confidant deck. I do see that splashing just for seize could be powerful like Eli Kassis did, but at that point it seems Junk would be a better metagame call. I have read a ton into legacy lately and it definitly seems like this is one of the strongest decks in a CB and vial meta game. Drew Lewin had it right, find a good Knight deck and this definitly seems like it's the one. Now we just have to wait for control to get rid f all these combo decks.

[Penguinizer]

I've been toying with giving Leonin Arbiter one more shot before I switch to GW Splash. This is mainly since I don't really have much else to use instead at this point in time. I'll do a few tests on Cockatrice and see how it does.

Here's the working list:
10x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port

4x Mother of Runes
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Jötun Grunt
2x Phyrexian Revoker (meant to be 3. Still lacking one.)
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Cornodor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Oblivion Ring

SB:
3x Wing Shards
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of the Sun and Moon
1x Pithing Needle
1x Phyrexian Revoker (might just switch this to the MD. Have no idea what to play in the SB instead.)
2x Ethersworn Canonist

I'm mainly sticking with the tried and true.

[mrjumbo03]

@ Penguinizer, there is something wrong with your lists even if assuming those islands are plains, i'm pretty sure that 14 is not the correct number... Also, arbiters are still great in the post-survival era (well i've really been one of the main advocates of this card, so maybe I'm biased...haha) but to really maximize the mana denial plan, as you are already playing the arbiters, go to 4 ports as well... our lists are almost identical except I have dropped the oblivion rings from the main altogether and have gone for an all-in enlightened tutor sb...

[AggroSteve]

@ penguinizer: for the sideboard slot you are missing i would suggest a 3rd canonist

[Penguinizer]

@ Penguinizer, there is something wrong with your lists even if assuming those islands are plains, i'm pretty sure that 14 is not the correct number... Also, arbiters are still great in the post-survival era (well i've really been one of the main advocates of this card, so maybe I'm biased...haha) but to really maximize the mana denial plan, as you are already playing the arbiters, go to 4 ports as well... our lists are almost identical except I have dropped the oblivion rings from the main altogether and have gone for an all-in enlightened tutor sb...

Oh crap. I just noticed.

I rightfully deserve a whack to the noggin for that. I wrote that post around 4 AM-ish.

It's meant to be 21 total lands, so 10x Plains.

[Fry]

@Penguinizer

We have very similar main boards, here's what I use:

Main Board:
3 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
12 Plains

Side Board:
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Wing Shards
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon