I cant beleive people are actually considering squadren hawk....lol and disscussing dropping bob in this thread...lol....WACK!!!
That s a trip..I didnt get into legacy to play squadren hawks...What happens when they keep you off you equipment and stick a fatty what the hell is a squadren hawk gonna do...Its not all about card advantage people its card power...And hawk is weak....Bob is powerhouse he must be answered.....plus you run equip so he can be a threat...
even if they keep you off equipment you can drop 2-3 hawks a turn between vial and lands - and noone plays significant flyers in legacy...so they still put your opponent on a clock. If you didn't start playing legacy to play hawks that's fine...don't.
As for the dropping of bob - if you don't question everything the deck will stagnate...end of story.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:Originally Posted by laststepdown
3 hawks will put the opponent on like a 20 turn clock one ass kicker puts them back on top...And all you got is 3 turns to chump while you scramble to find something to answer with...I applaude the pushing developemental boundries but at the same time we are talking about a squadren hawk..The deck already has problems finishing without equipment and hawk would just compound the problem...Just my opinion....
First off, it's very hard to keep us off of equipment if we run 3-4 pieces plus 3-4 Stoneforge. Secondly, our finishers are limited by Bob and or the need to play around wasteland. Our options are really limited to Serra Avenger unless we dip to a third color - and if someone drops a goyf on t2 on the play and I have a hand full of land, Avenger, Sculler, Discard, Bob, Stonforge Mystic I'm simly going to loose. Even Avenger is a chump blocker against goyf.
and 4 1/1's isn't a 20 turn clock - it's a 5 turn clock - assuming you have -0- equipment and they haven't taken any damage..which is never the case. Also, pulling together a few turns with chump blockers can also give you several extra draws with bob or you can simply draw answers or additional threats because the deck is loaded with answers (8 or 9 is pretty common).
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
I agree with deezy here, I don't think that gettin 3 poor Creatures in your hand after dropping 1 poor Creature in the important CC2-Section is the top play. If you want 1/1-Flyer, get Bitterblossom, spits out a flyer a turn for 1 Life and blocks ol' bad Tarmogoyf til the game is over (by the way never had this big problems with goyf, Deadguy has enough bullets for him).
thing is your gonna sink 8 mana and multiple turns into 4 1/1 flyers its just not good enough...atleast avenger is 3/3 and has vigilance...
And everyone one of your equipment can be shut down by a null rod so its really not that hard to keep you off it...That card is gonna see some board play due to the rise in midrange aggro decks trying to utilize equipment and affinity...
Ands its not gonna be easy to get rid of if theyre playing control or dissruption exspecially if you are one of the guys only running 3 vindicates...You need a real threat...
Hell my buddy mentioned spectral linx and even he is better than hawk...He has pro green and regenerates...
Ok...let me use a more common example.
You have a piece of equipment on the board and one creature in hand - your opponent has one piece of removal in hand.
If that one creature is not squadron Hawk you're f'd.
Squadron hawk forces your opponent to answer your creature AND your equipment. Avenger give your opponent a multitude of tempo advantages in addition to opeing up to leaving your equipment on the board doing nothing.
I understand that your argument is that people will now just answer the equipment instead...however, after one game of playing people will not know that they just have to answer the equipment, and also it's not like they can board out their removal since you still play bob and sculler and a nighthawk.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
Aether Vial makes Squadron Hawk good...you have to look at them together, IMHO. When you are gettinga FREE 1/1 flyer that also fishes out 3 more FREE 1/1 flyers and puts them into your hand? Nice. Aether Vial is the cats ass in Deadguy, no doubt. Getting dudes for free and then getting 3 more in hand means you can be assured you have a dude to equip, which is what the deck needs: a dude to equip. It also has built in evasion, which Deadguy Ale has a problem with (Bob and Mystic both have this problem un-equipped.) Solid pick IMHO.
I'd be really interested to see what Stillmoon Cavalier could do for this deck. It has pro: B + W right out of the gate, can be equipped, and can be pumped (making it a great use of late-game mana) It has protection from all non-burn sources of removal in the format, including the 2 best (Swords/Path) and the runners up (Smother/Terminate). I'd be interested to see what he could do for the deck.
I also think that Jotun Grunt is a somewhat better choice than Serra Avenger. You can support it fairly weill by utilizing early game disruption (Wasteland, Thoughtsieze) and fetchlands, and it can control/profitable trade with other early threats (Wild Nacatl, sometimes Goyf, Goblin Lackey) Getting cards back into your deck via Grunt + fetchlandd shuffle means Bob can really give fresh options every turn. Not to mention it shrinks goyf to profitably block/trade and hoses threshold. Probably a better 'risky' play than Serra Avenger, but both seem decent.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Granted I haven't tested him at all, Squadron hawk just seems inferior to bitterblossom. Bitterblossom is a single turn, 1 time investment of 2 mana where squadron hawk is going to take 8 mana or 4 turns with vial. In a longer game bitterblossom will get you more 1/1 fliers and you can even have multiple bitterblossoms out at once but you will never get more than 4 squadron hawks.
Squadron hawk has the advantage of not putting all your eggs in one basket but I think if im going to cost 8 mana to get 4 power, I'd rather just invest my mana in a basket that will never drop (something that can't be removed easily). A 2 drop with shroud, or protection could fill this role but that will unlikely amount to 4 power. Thats why I think bitterblossom is probably a better option, vindicate and QPM are about the only MD enchantment hate most decks run so your chances of having a unanswered bitterblossom I think are pretty good.
I like the idea of having something that can poop out little guys that don't care about removal, but personally I think elspeth 1.0 is probably the best for the job, then bitterblossom seems like a really solid choice too and then squadron hawk is kinda meh.
Stillmoon is amazing against anything that isn't red. I used to run it as a three-of back when Reanimator was huge, and its versatility and power is truly underestimated. My cousin recently won a match he had actually fubared two turns earlier by topdecking a Stillmoon with my borrowed Pikula list against a single Elspeth (plus Token) on his opp's side. Pro-white and the turn-on-evasion really are strong.
The difference is that Bitterblossom is NOT a late game option. I have been playing Faeries in legacy for awhile now (trying anyways, lol) and Bitterblossom is ONLY good in the early game, or in the control matchup. Squadron Hawk, on the other hand, would be good at all stages of the game. Remember that I qualified my remark by saying that Aether Vial makes it good...it isn't good in a vaccuum. You need it to be free, and to be able to get the other 3 in hand for free. This thins your deck and allows you several opportunities to get an equipped offense going.
Also, I would say the amount of times I've had 2 Bitterblossoms on the table at once was very rare...it is usually just too risky. You usually want to land one and let it do it's thing while you concentrate on controlling the board or setting up your offense/equipments with your mana. Playing a second one is usually more risk than it's worth. That's just been my experience, take it or leave it.
@colo: yeah, Stillmoon is criminally underplayed ATM...
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Bitterblossom has the additional advantage of not needing to be run as a 4 of. It has the downside of requiring 2 turns to be useful though.
The way I see it:
Bitterblossom:
Pros: Continuously generates creatures without mana investment. Does not need to be run as a 4x.
Cons: Costs life. Slower to come on line. Cannot be vialed in. Can be removed.
Squadron Hawk:
Pros: Immediately active. Reduces 2cmc in deck for Bob triggers. Can be vialed in. Potential great interactions with Grunt.
Cons: Drawing multiples is pretty bad. Costs mana/vial activations to play.
For all the anti-Hawk folk out there, I was surprised how well Hawk worked for me. I understand the arguments against Hawk because Hawk does look pretty silly. But I'm playing this pretty much as an equipment deck. In that case, Hawk shines. I do have some concerns about Bitterblossom chewing up life, but willing to give it a try. IMO, the best part about it is that I don't have to run it as a 4x. I'll probably try 3x Bitterblossom this week and see how it does.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
squadron hawk forces you to overcommit to the board or get set back by disruption. you play 1, then draw 3. If you hold them, they will be hit with discard. if you play them out to get a fast clock you set yourself up for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed shenanigans. squadron hawk is a 1/1 flyer for 1W that gets you 3 more 1/1 fliers for 3WWW. thats 4WWWW for FOUR 1/1 FLIERS. thats shit. play Ranger of Eos if you want C/A. you can at least go get 2 Moms that way.
aether vial it in!! then you get 4 free creatures!!!. have fun with that. I'll vial in my serra avengers and go to work on your face.
don't use the "but if i put equipment on it, and it doesn't get answered..." argument. thats shit too. ANY creature w/ at least 1 power unanswered will eventually win the game with no roadblocks.
bad squadron hawk is bad. 4 bad squadron hawks is still bad.
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They're going to Therapy you? I'm ok with that. It means something else isn't getting Therapied. I like having Hawk in my hand for a Hymn.
It's really not as bad as you're making it out.
I'm not sure how Serra Avenger is any better against EE or Deed than Haw though...
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Does anyone here run Vial AND Gatekeeper? I want both, but they're ugly together. :(
a single avenger is an equal clock to three squadron hawks. three for 1 vs 1 for 1. thats how it's better.
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Hawk gives you consistency. So you have 3 hawks in hand...what makes you think you need to play them all? They are now in your hand rather than randomly in your library. If your board get's P-Deeded, guess what...you need a creature so you can get your strategy going again. Oh yeah, I have 3 just waiting in my hand...
Not to mention it's a seemingly 'bad' play...meaning it won't get Sword-ed or FoW-ed. If it DOES, well, that's great! Now your important spells can get into the game.
Deadguy Ale isn't a FAST deck...it's a TEMPO deck. You want to be disrupting your opponent and controlling the board in the early game, not worrying about how many threats you have. You eventually need a threat to equip and attack with...but your disruption buys you the time to do it.
That being said...I wouldn't leave Serra Avenger out. It's just really good when Vial-ed into play. I would have to agree that Serra Avenger is better (in a vacuum).
Bitterblossom vs. Squadron Hawk would probably have to be a meta-game call IMHO. Neither is better than the other, it's just what you need to accomplish in the majority of your matchups. Bob + Bitterblossom could net a pile of life loss that you do to yourself...in an aggro heavy metagame, this would be suicide, and not in a good 'Suicide Black' kind of way.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
There wouldn't be a point. Gatekeeper's sac effect is dependant on it's kicker cost being paid. If you Vial it in, you're not paying the kicker hence no sac effect. Granted you could still run it with the plan of hard casting it, but the arguments against doing such in the past have been that while we reasonably can cast BBB, often times we're stuck on a Waste or need to fetch out white sources, so BBB isn't always something we want to see. Not that you couldn't run it, mind you, but unless your meta is rampant with Show and Tell I wouldn't suggest against it.
Forlorn Egoist
If your metagame is rampant with Show and Tell/creature cheater type of decks, than Fleshbag Marauder or Diabolic Edict is probably what you want.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Safety! good to see you cross boards...haha.
I do not like bitterblossom for multiple reasons, but this reason is an odd one that many may not think about - it gives you 4 more targets for K-Grip, and gives them more reasons to board it in. Right now your oppoenent may not even see equipment in game 1. Granted, most intelligent legacy players will understand that you play equipment, but if they don't see it in the first game they may question the effectiveness of brining in artifact/enchantment hate. It simply opens you up to loosing the sideboard war.
The other reasons include all the ones that have already been talked about: Vial, Slowness, Lifeloss...etc.. This card primarlilly falls victim to the same constraints as Serra and Grunt - it's a card that can't be utilized to change board position and gain tempo in the early part of the game - in a deck that is supposed to manage tempo. I'd never run Vial AND bitterblossom because you're adding 7 or 8 late game dead draws to the deck that already has issues finishing. If you're not running vial...you better be running Nighthawk and maindeck Sword of light and Shadow if you plan on playing this AND bob AND Thoughtseize - Just too suicide for my taste...my meta is way to aggro for this to work.
Stillmoon I feel is a fantastic creature that may have a place in the deck - but at the moment he would simply have to go in the Nighthawk spot if you don't play vial, and there is no room if you do play vial. Replacing a set of 2-drops with him simply raises the curve too much for Bob to stomach. Vindicates, Thoughtsiezes, and Nighthawks are enough Lightning bolts for me. Shocks aren't great, but I don't feel Stillmoon bridges the gap between the other card choices after you consider life loss. The only reason I currently run Nighthawks is because they can gain some of the life back and stabalize the game.
I'm not going to argue hawks anymore since none of the current winning lists run him - and I'm sick of arguing for it. You don't like it...don't play it. If a 1/1 flyer for 2 that draws 3 cards isn't good enough for you...well, ok play avenger on turn 4.
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Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
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