[Deck] U/G/w/r Nacatl Tempo

[Cenarius]

Since people still can't find the pm button. If you want to troll, pm me. I'd like to explain myself in Pm's.

Nimble Mongoose is now a bad creature. UW tempo has more relevant results in the past 18 months or so than Canadian Thresh or any Nimble Mongoose deck as far as I'm aware, especially considering how little it's played.

This statement shows that u are unaware of the sheer power of Tempo Threshold. Nimble Mongoose is still good, it's still one heck of a creature.

UW tempo has more players. U might not be suprised, but there are currently two active players of Tempo Threshold as far as I'm concerned. That would be Oddball and me. It cannot be ignored, we put some pretty decent tournament results in 2010 and earlier. Our ratings are 1850+ and my tournament earning of 6 tournaments total is 330 Euro, split over 4 tournaments. Oddball has some pretty good results himself aswell, one result I know for sure: top 8 at the Dutch Championships (200+ tournament).
Though UW tempo may have more active players, I'm pretty sure that either Dark Tempo Threshold or even Canadian Threshold is better than UW Tempo. I always thought that people started playing UW Tempo, because they don't have Tarmogoyfs. Is that still the utterly truth?

This deck has promise, as Wild Nacatl is the best 'unconditional' 1-drop in the game. You just do your thing by fetching your lands and hit for 3. I like it a bazillion times better than Nimble Mongoose.

It totally depends on the deck. Getting a 4-colour manabase + 4 Wasteland is pretty bad to me. Usually it's:
Nimble Mongoose > Wild Nacatl, except for Zoo( and Aggressive decks).

[troopatroop]

Honestly, I actively want my opponent to Swords my Wild Nacatl's. This is not a joke, nor does it not make sense. If they use a Swords then, it means my more important creatures will survive. It's exactly even on mana and cards, and makes me smile every time! Wild Nacatl almost mentally demands that STP, so it's been a real asset. Sometimes I can even Spell Pierce that Plow! It's great :D

Also, I tried Nimble Mongoose, and he's just okay! I don't want to play a 1/1 for 1 with Threshold. This is an aggressive deck, and I want 3/3 now.

You may not want to use Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix, but I think Grim Lavamancer is going to need a little bit of attention. What this does, like tempo decks, is fill your graveyard FAST. That means fodder for Grim to convert into damage. I like it even better than KotR in this deck. KotR is a great threat, and usually is the biggest threat on the board...but Grim Lavamancer has some great synergy that should at least be playtested.

Grim Lavamancer is great, but I would rather not play any red spells. If I actually needed to cast Red spells, my manabase would look alot different. Needing G/W/R/U on turn 1 is a really daunting task. What took me to building this, is that I only need duals in play to make Nacatl huge. I don't need to play any red spells. Pyroclasm in the board, however, has proven itself to me.

Last thought: 23 lands seems a bit much...I realize Wasteland is a 0-cost land destruction spell, not really a land. I still feel 23 is too many. I'd drop down to 21-22, and that may give you the slots you need to playtest Grim Lavamancer, or along the same idea as your no-Bolts argument, Qasali Pridemage to, as troopatroop says, 'be prepared for anything?"

Wasteland does not count as a land. It barely casts anything in the deck, and functions solely as 0cc LD. I run 19 lands that count. 9 Duals and 10 Fetches. That's pretty skimpy, but I have cantrips and the curve is low. Wasteland + Daze give you extra draw steps to hit land drops as well.

Qasali Pridemage doesn't hit hard enough for my taste. He's too slow, and this deck isn't like normal Zoo in that it can't counter the things Qasali answers. Also, Pyroclasm doesn't kill any of my guys. I'd like to keep it that way.

[Mr. Safety]

Well reasoned. You're essentially playing a tempo-driven deck but giving yourself availability of one of the best 1-drops in the game with Wild Nacatl.

How do you feel about Rhox War Monk? Seems like a solid option to me. If you feel you're too low on 'beef' he's a solid hate card against most of the faster aggro decks. Not as good as knights (of course) but your manabase can handle him no problem.

I hear you on Pridemages. Is one Engineered Explosives enough? Have you ever wanted more copies?

[troopatroop]

1 Engineered Explosives is random, but it answers things so well. I can get to 4 colors, and it's always great. Enlightened Tutor fetches is after SB too, which is gravy.

Rhox War Monk doesn't do what I want to do, which is win with pace. The only thing I would want him for is pitching to Force. 0 Exalted triggers. I would sooner play Terravore, and I like the low curve. This is more akin to the Tempo Thresh deck.

Howabout Jace, the Mind Sculptor in that last slot?

[Mr. Safety]

Jace makes almost any deck you include him in BETTER, except maybe Merfolk. Not a bad option. I think if anything, if you have an open slot and the rest of your deck is going smoothly, I'd say adding a higher cost spell would be fine. I like big Jace and Elspeth #1 in that context. If I remember you list, you have at least Brainstorm x4 in the deck with fetchlands to shuffle with...that gives you better than normal odds of digging out a singleton anyways. I suppose a singleton Standstill would probably be just as good as Engineered Explosives, but you're really splitting hairs at this point. I like the E-Tutor toolbox in the board, solid tech there. Jace doesn't afford you that kind of utility, but Jace is Jace...badass.

My comment about Rhox War Monk was to hate out the aggro decks by giving yourself an aggressive beater that gains you life that doesn't require waiting (like with Jitte.) It's pretty decent against CounterTop, too, as a 3 mana dude. Agreed, Terravore is better though.

[troopatroop]

I think the card I wanted for this deck is Green Sun's Zenith. I got a chance to test 2 copies in a tournament yesterday, and they rocked.

Round 1: MUD.deck

game 1: I land 2 Nacatls that swing a few times, and I drop a Goyf. His Goblin Welder does tricks with Grim Monolith turn 4, and he powers out Myr Battlesphere. I can't really deal with it, and it takes the game despite my best efforts.

game 2: This time my Wild Nacatls get there. I was battling through Crucible + Wasteland the entire game. He couldn't deal with the creatures at all, I counter his relevant spells, and Waste his lands.

game 3: He lands Chalice at one turn one, I play land go. He untaps and plays Crucible. My entire hand is dead, but I can play Zenith for 1 or Tarmogoyf. I end up playing Zenith, and wince as he plays Chalice at 2 next turn. My Nacatl is hitting for damage, and I'm hoping to draw into my Krosan Grips, which I do shortly after. I grip the Chalice at one, play Brainstorms + my Wild Nacatls and win.

1-0
Round 2: Land.deck, Frankie De'loia: Reverend Damaged

game 1: I play Wild Nacatl turn 1, but he goes crazy with Explorations and Burgeoning. He gets Loam going, Wasteland recursion, and has a Maze of Ith in play, but it's only a matter of time before my Tarmogoyf meets his buddy Terravore for my board. He dredges a few important cards, and just can't seem to find the win. My creatures end up getting there when I Wasteland his Maze of Ith.

game 2: I can't remember details, but Firespout wipes my early pressure. He manages to hang on long enough, and with lethal on the board plays Scapeshift, grabbing 2 Valakuts, 3 Taigas and a Mountain. This kills me, and I am caught without a counter. This game ends up taking a long time, and turns are called early on in game 3.

game 3: I'm wrecking his shit with 2 early Wild Nacatls and timely Counters. Time gets called, and he Burning Wises for and casts Devastating Dreams for 2. It kills my 2 Wild Nacatls, but my Tarmogoyf is a 6/7! on the first turn of time, and attacks him down to 3. He draws *drumroll* Maze of Ith for his turn. I have two turns to draw Wasteland or Brainstorm, but it isn't meant to be. We draw. I was robbed!

1-0-1
Round 3, R/B Goblins

game 1: Everything goes right for me. I keep him short on mana, play early creatures, and beat him senseless. He keeps a 1 lander, and I curve out with Dazes, Swords, Force of Will, and Stifle for his Lackey Trigger perfectly. It was satisfying.

game 2: This game is much closer, and I find a Pyroclasm to sweep his stuff. I'm swinging with 2 Nacatls with him at 13, and decide to go for the win by playing the Terravore I drew, threatening lethal the next turn. This was a huge mistake, as he untaps and plays Perish.

Now, this was all my fault. I was an idiot to play that Terravore, and it bit me in the ass. I couldn't draw another creature, and the overextension cost me the game. Lessons learned.

game 3: I get blown out. I keep a 2 lander with 3x Pyroclasms and get smoked by Wasteland. I cannot draw another land, and Goblin Lackey and Warren Instigator go crazy. I end up dropping, disgusted with my mistake, as the deck deserves much better. If I hadn't played that Terravore in game 2, it wouldn't have gotten to this point, and the match would've ended differently. It's a good thing this deck is better than I am :P


So I went 1-1-1. I played against 4x Wasteland each round, and the deck did really well against it. Wild Nacatl was pretty sweet. Green Sun's Zenith is the card, Play this.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Savannah

sb:

3 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Energy Flux
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds

A month of straight testing, and these are my findings.

4 Tropical Island is better than 3 Tropical Island and 1 Taiga. I often liked Taiga for being a green source, and giving the Zoo look, but not tapping for blue hurts the opening hand too much. I'm comfortable only playing with only 2 Mountains now, the Volcanic and Plateau. If they Wasteland both of them your Nacatls will only be 2/2, but that's not as big of a deal as tapping for blue. Tropical Island is the best land in the deck, and I should have been playing 4 the whole time.

Umezawa's Jitte is a must in the board. At the end of your turn 3 Tutor, Turn 4 play it and smash, generally wins the game against Tribal.

Wheel of Sun and Moon + Energy flux are for Graveyard and Artifact strategies. You can protect these cards too, which is all you need to win.

Crucible of Worlds is absolutely insane with Wasteland + Fetches. It mostly comes in against Control.

1 Gaddock Teeg and 1 Ethersworn Cannonist SB gives you 6 outs in your deck that win the game against Storm. I can't think of a deck (save CB-top) that has a better Storm matchup. Isn't the Wild Nacatl Aggro Control deck perfect here?

3 Force of Will is personal preference. I've liked it so much so far, and it might seem scrubby to only run 3 of one of the best cards in Legacy, but this deck doesn't always want the card disadvantage. Force is mediocre against redundant decks, and while it often saves me the game when I have it, I don't feel vulnerable with my different weapons. I feel safe cutting a Force of Will, which effectively gave 2 flex slots to work with. Green Sun's Zenith is a special card, in that it's power lies in not what it does, but what it can do. It can do 5 things in my deck.

-Wild Nacatl: 3/3 for 2 is... Watchwolf. Pretty good at putting on the pressure, usually cast if no other creatures are in hand.

-Qasali Pridemage: 3cc "out" to a variety of cards. He's important, because Legacy has some mean artifacts and enchantments.

-Tarmogoyf: He's the meanest of them all

-Knight of the Reliquary: The go-to monster of choice. Drawing this card is better than searching for it.

-Terravore: For Merfolk and Goblins, or anything ground stall

The thing about Zenith that fascinates me, is that it's less powerful than just casting the card you search for. It costs an extra mana, but the reason Zenith is still good, is because it gives you so much redundancy. Multiple Wild Nacatls or Tarmogoyfs + 4 Bombs + 3x Qasali Pridemage? It's just so versatile, Dauntless Escort could be sb if you expect Wrath. Overall, I think Zenith makes this deck alot better, and made it even easier to be playing with Blue. I have only played with 2 so far, and can't seem to find room for more, but that's okay. The list is much more finished imo, with the manabase cleaned up to where I can commit to it :P Comments, Criticism?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Hey troopatroop, I like to see more tempo decks being built that don't include Merfolk. Those fish are so boring to play. I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but I used to play an aggro-control deck that thrived on tempo. It was Uwb, but after I saw the Rock list that placed top 8 way back in Columbus, I changed the creature base completely. It originally played with Jotun Grunt, Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Cliques/Efreets with 4 Stifle, 3 Trickbind, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Rishadan Ports as mana denial. But the final list was something like this.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port


Ports are a fantastic compliment to Wasteland, Stifle, and Daze. Plus, you can still use them to cast Vial turn one, but without Daze protection obviously.

I loved it back when I could afford to have all those expensive cards, but I had to sell it for bills and such. And I was rocking this before New Horizons was a deck, which I only mention since they have similar game plans.

I'm just curious if you have any interest in adapting more of a mana denial strategy? It can suck against jank decks because you are depending on Stifle and Wasteland to actually do something, so it needs to be a semi-serious tournament environment for this to be viable.

[troopatroop]

Cool deck, and I'll address some problems I see.

- Aether Vial is good in Merfolk and Goblins because they play 20+ creatures. When you're only playing 14, or even less, it is too often a dead card. Compare Vial to Wild Nacatl, and I like the Cat much better here. Tempo decks need to run alot of business spells, because staying ahead of the game is so important. Having a dead Aether Vial on the board is bad, and Wild Nacatl is never a dead draw. People see Vial as a great card, and it is, but your deck needs to be able to support it. I would rather run more counters than creatures, because if I wanted that much threat density I would play Zoo

- Rishadan Port seems good in theory, and it's good in dedicated "denial", but it's very greedy in your deck. You're playing 4 colors of mana, and 7 lands that tap for colorless? That's only 15 colored sources of mana, making you extremely weak to Stifle + Wasteland and opening draws. It's good with Aether Vial, but I don't think a 4 color deck can support it.

Wild Nacatl is a stronger card than Aether Vial here, because it does something on it's own. This deck can't afford to run cards that require other cards to function, because that's just not consistent strategy. Only combo decks should lose to themselves like that. Also, Green Sun's Zenith is fairly amazing new card, and it doesn't play well with Aether Vial. I can run 2x (unlike Vial), increase my threat density, and tutor for Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg. Your deck isn't bad, but I prefer my build, and really advocate using Wild Nacatl. Albeit tricky to get working, Nacatl is cheap and effective. Blue has never had a 3/3 for 1.