I don't think additional removal is necessary against a deck like Bant. You play both Tarmogoyf (which they do as well) and Knight of the Reliquary (which they don't), who will probably outclass all other creatures in size. They can both be fetched by Green Sun's Zenith. Lightning Bolt takes care of Noble Hierarch and your own Noble Hierarchs and perhaps Qasali Pridemages give you the edge in combat. Rhox War Monk is annoying, but far less so than with traditional Zoo.
Against Merfolk. They're light on mana and would love to have more islands. Especially when they are stuck on one island you don't want to give them a second one. The same is true vs Goblins.Originally Posted by Crazy Eddie
Sometimes 4 Paths aren't enough (against decks that run too many big creatures) and you want to increase your non burn removal.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
On Green Sun's Zenith:
Which is more often the correct play?
Play A: I open with Turn 1 Nacatl. I have no 2-drop for turn 2, but GSZ another Nacatl for steady pressure.
Play B: Same first two turns, but I hold bag the GSZ so I can get something scary like Knight or Terravore later on.
Obviously matchups, lands, hand, and opponent's board have a lot to do with this decision. But generally speaking, which has more often been correct in your experience?
On Big Zoo playstyle:
Based on the discussion around Path/removal, it's clear to me that there are some different approaches when playing Big Zoo (i.e. Hierarch, GSZ, Wasteland + Zoo Cards). One seems to be more prevalent: play the list like you would small Zoo, get out to a fast start, Path their midgame blockers and burn them down before they can stabilize, but have a midgame backup plan through GSZ.
The big difference is that you only have one aggressive 1-drop creature (and it's probably the best in the format): Wild Nacatl. Hierarch is not an aggro card, neither is Lavamancer really. The small Zoo lists were good because they had assorted 1-drops, 8 1-mana burn spells that are often cast early, and could apply consistent early pressure. The tradeoff is that you increase the likelihood that you run out of gas by the mid-game, but by then your opponent is hopefully dead.
Anyway, my contention is that "Hierarch, go" is not an aggro start, and a huge reason why I play Swords over Path. True aggro decks like Merfolk (which I've been testing against a bit), will play Vial turn 1, Silvergill and Mutavault turn 2 and possibly Vial in Cursecatcher. You have to go into damage control (literally) mode at this point. Giving your opponent life is much more inconsequential than giving them another land so they can play the Coralhelm AND LoA on their next turn. You're essentially accerating a deck that's faster than you are. Same with Goblins. In these matchups, you need to stabilize, then go on the attack. Extra removal would be helpful, but I think these matchups are winnable with StP/Bolt/Jitte and big blockers. Those slots are better left devoted to tougher matchups.
Against decks like NLT and Team America, you're faster than they are and it's a resource war. This is the matchup where you want to open with Hierarch so you can sidestep their Stifle/Waste plan. Even here, I don't mind having Swords over Path, although Path would probably be better. If you can fight through their mana denial and counterspells, you should be able to simply land a creature that outclasses any of theirs and the extra removal isn't necessary.
I agree with your point, but Bant doesn't play Knight? Why not?
I actually don't think I've seen a Bant list that doesn't play Knight.
Lord of the Chalice
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You should play Zenith when you can get the most advantage out of it. Most of the time this means you want to play it when you can get a Qasali Pridemage or an efficient beater out of it; personally I don't like using Zenith to find one-drops.
About the playstyle of Zoo in general. I realised that I was playing it as aggro-control more and more. You have loads of removal anyway and you even have answer to other important cardtypes through Qasali Pridemage. We have more cards that interact with our opponents than Merfolk has. Now, as I see it, the most important aspect of control these days is tempo. And this deck sure can play tempo, basically more than any other deck in the format. Recently I played a game against Dragon Stompy, which has tempo elements itself. I opened with Taiga, Noble Hierarch, go. He went Ancient Tomb, Phyrexian Revoker on Noble Hierarch. This was a nice tempo move from him. Anyway, I went Lighting Bolt on Phyrexian Revoker, Wasteland on Ancient Tomb and Wild Nacatl off of Noble Hierarch. The game was over three or four turns later. I like this playstyle a lot and this is probably one of the deck I played so far I enjoyed the most, both because of power and because of playstyle.
I usually hold on to the zenith til turn 3 and bluff removal if I have no turn 2 which is very rare. Now if turn 1 was a noble then turn 2 zenith is usually decent.
When you don't have a turn two play, how often do you have to bluff removal? You usually should have removal then. I agree on Zenith turn two after leading with Noble Hierarch. It's a pretty decent play.
I'll be playing at the SCG Open in Dallas this Sunday (I've been slowly collecting the cards for zoo, so this will be my first legacy event ever!), here's my list:
Creatures
1 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of The Reliquary
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Price of Progress
Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Silence
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
A few notes:
- 6 basics but only 3 duals - I only own 3 duals. I'll try to pick up another plateau, taiga, and windswept heath at the site and use them to replace 3 of the basics
- Green Sun's Zenith - it probably seems weird to run the zeniths in small zoo, but I've basically swapped them for libraries. Given the recent success of combo decks, the zeniths seem better as a way to increase my chances of getting teeg into play without having to run a bunch of teeg's maindeck.
- Silence instead of orim's chant - I don't own chants. If I can find them for an ok price at the event site I'll swap them out, but I'm on a budget and the duals/fetchland take priority
What do you guys think? I'm mostly looking for advice on the SB since I'm unsure if the teeg/silence/REB plan is the right way to go against combo, but I'd love any comments on the list. I find myself wanting to cut the graveyard hate from the board, but I'm afraid that may just be greedy.
I take it you play Big Zoo? Or do fast Zoo lists run GSZ too nowadays?
You have to take the matchup in account. If you play against a control or combo deck than I would definitely go for the Nacatl because aggro is the only way to win with a slow hand. If you only have one creature in hand then one Nacatl is not enough to keep on the pressure. Not to mention the situation you're in when they remove your only Nacatl.
If you have a 3 drop in hand you want to play that on turn 3. So you have to wait to turn 4 for you to play GSZ (if you have the 4 mana for that) because I can't imagine that you want to put a 2 drop in play on turn 3 instead (unless you need Gaddock Teeg or another hate card). Maybe you'd want to go for a Tarmogoyf (depending on how big it will be), but even so you lose out on 4/5 damage because of damage of the second Nacatl you didn't search for. (When Tarmogoyf does its first damage on turn 4 the 2nd Nacatl would've done 9. Tarmogoyf will never be 9 in power to compensate).***
Against aggro you could probably wait since Big Zoo plays the control role in that matchup. I take it you have at least 2 removal in hand if you don't have a 2 drop creature. Otherwise you probably should've mulliganed.
*** I also take it you don't have a Hierarch in hand because otherwise you would've either played it on turn 1 or on turn 2.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
I was under the impression that most Bant decks don't play Knight of the Reliquary. Looking at some lists I now see that they do.
I agree. This is the reason I think Swords to Plowshares is better in Big Zoo. The other is Wasteland.
What's a good answer to Burn when playing Zoo? I'm looking for sideboard stuff.
-Lightning Helix
-Burrenton Forge-Tender
-Leyline of Sanctity
Just drawing a blank really. I've been having trouble racing them lately.
Kitchen Finks? Rest for the Weary and Kor Firewalker seem like they would make it pretty hard for them to race you, although you probably don't want to waste any space (main or SB) on those types of cards.
Which would you suggest? There are on average 3-4 burn decks at our tournaments. They tend to go X-0. So playing them in the upper brackets is a common occurance.
What's your list, Random? What type of Burn are we talking about? Pure Burn? Goblin Guide? Keldon Marauders?
All the lists are creature based (i.e. Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Keldon Marauders, elementals).
Here's the list:
20 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
21 Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape
19 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
15 Sideboard
(Note: Dredge, Dragon Stompy and Affinity are in my meta)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serenity
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
No love? I'd love to get any feedback at all before I pack my list up to leave tomorrow morning.
Play Orim's Chant against combo. It's sexy against Sneak Attack and Tendrils decks.
EDIT: Also I'm not a fan of Bojuka Bog, even with Knight of the Reliquary. You're usually dead before you can tutor it out against Dredge.
Maybe cut 2 Crypts and a Choke for 2 Enlightened Tutor + Wheel of Sun and Moon? Against Burn you up your virtual Jitte count to 4, and not lose much against the rest of the decks you mentioned.
Easy:
Don' try to race them. Preserve your life total at all costs. Trade any creature you have for theirs, and fetch basics to dull their PoP. They can't do much about Leyline of Sanctity, and that card helps in storm match ups as well, so if you are really getting shut out by Burn, run Leylines. And play the control role.
Just a comment as an 'aside': I've heard whisperings that Terravore is good in zoo...anyone have some first-hand experience with this? I'm debating putting up to 3 in my list.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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