Hello Source. My name is Mario and after reading through many of the storm combo threads (TES, ANT, and Iggy Pop), I decided that all of these decks had certain aspects that made their respective design feasible and efficient. After play testing these decks, i got a clue of why the key cards are really there such as Ad Nauseum and Ill-Gotten Gains. To conclude this introduction, this deck is based with the essence of why and how those cards work and exploiting them to maximum potential.
Another notice of foreword, the main problems facing Storm and combo in general are only a handful of cards.
Cast Counters
Force of Will
Daze
Spell Pierce
Counterspell
Mindbreak Trap
Permanents
Counterbalance
Gaddock Teeg
Leyline of Sanctity
Ethersworn Canonist
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Solitary Confinement
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Meddling Mage
and other assorted "I cant lose" based things.
Discard Effects
Thoughtseize
Duress
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn To Tourach
Unmask
Cabal Therapy
Other
Stifle
Trickbind
Orim's Chant
Silence
Abeyance
Wasteland
To essentially say why I listed all these cards, is fairly clear. These are are only problems. Ever. Feel relieved. Moving on, how do we deal with them and still be able to win? That is what I asked myself persistently and I think I've answered most satisfactory.
Here is the deck list that you scrolled down to find.
- // Lands
1 [MI] Island (3)
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [TSP] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [M11] Duress
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [M10] Silence
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [RAV] Dark Confidant
As you can see, the main difference between this and ANT is cunning wish, chant effects, lack of discard effects, top, and of course the mana base. The wish board provides an answer for nearly every problem that can occur game 1. Whether it will find a wipe away or chant or even finish them off with brain freeze, thats it's job. Furthermore, it also provides your Ad Nauseum with an extra mana. Ad Nauseum is here for when we have a high life total and are going for a turn 1 or 2 because we opened with some fantastic cards. There are not as many turn 1 win hands with this deck like TES has, but I found that storm deck doesn't actually need to win in the first 2 turns.
The rest of the deck is pretty straight forward.
10 Card Selection devices are used to find what we need. I enjoy Top significantly, much more than preordain.
7 protection with 5 being Chant and 2 Duress. I'll explain if someone needs me to. For this deck, I prefer Chant than duress. It just is how the games play out that they desire Chant more. The cunning wishes and infernal tutors can act as protection as well should the need occur. Post-board, we have wider selection to fit the need.
7-0-mana artifacts that can produce mana post Ad Nauseum. Not mentioning LED here as it does not provide instant mana at any point. 3 Chrome Mox I've found is fairly appropriate given 15 Land.
15 Lands. 8 Fetches can and will fix colors as needed. 3 Basics provide an answer to wasteland. Notably, white can only come from petals, and the 2 tundras in most cases. Playing around wasteland when you need a chant is imperative for this deck and fairly manageable. Lands are good in this deck. Sure, they prevent turn 1,2, and sometimes 3 wins, but with this deck you shouldn't have to go off that early or not be able to deal with them.
7 Win enablers. The 2 Cunning, 4 Infernal, and AN are the most commonly to win the game. Not much more to say.
1 IGG main and 1 board. Iggy allows you to win when AN will not. Given the amount of time you have to set up before you die vs any aggro deck, you should be able to find an infernal tutor or have won with the cards you had before being in this situation. That's a long winded statement, but read it again and you should get it. I side in the 2nd Igg facing a few MU where I might need some extra storm count without AN or recover cards from the grave.
8 Ritual mana. Dark rit is obvious. Cabal ritual is a little tougher toll on the AN, but if you're going the AN route, you should have a high enough life to withstand it. Otherwise, you should have threshold during the Igg loop. At its best, its your 5-8 instant LED.
Board is designed to deal with our problem cards listed above. Won't waste time here explaining why most cards are there. Brain Freeze is our deck's Grapeshot, except its way cooler needing only around 16 Storm in some cases. Play around the meddling mages and other protection. Obviously not an out to some decks, but it is there for use. Recall lets us win affinity and stax themed decks. Cool interaction with storm count and top. Note, that we can wish for any chant effect and tutor for it with infernal if we need to. Givin our duals and basics, we don't have mana issues.
That's all I have for you now. Please post responses and I will get back ASAP. I've tested this deck for several weeks now and am impressed with its performance. Give it a shot.
What's your average goldfish kill turn? Also, you run less maindeck disruption than TES, so how does it handle against TES/ANT/PainterStone/Belcher, or any other fast combo deck.
I'd play the second island over the second swamp. You don't want to fetch basic swamp twice, ever. I'd also cut 2-3 marsh flats for blue fetches. Turn-1 you'd like an island to cantrip alot.
Playing 5 chants/2 duress seems fine, some ANT lists do run that.
I'm not sure on the tops, you don't often have mana to top, although they're good in a few matchups.
People who've tested Cunning Wish in ANT (which this is) have been dissapointed so far, how's it been for you in testing?
PS: Just move this to the ANT topic. It's UBW ANT, cunning wish is an innovation (not entirely a new idea though) but the deck remains ANT.
I find Chant effect + Cunning wish into Ant Extremely slow in this deck. You need 9 mana to go off protected. Cunning wish over Grim is ok, except you lose the Iggy route Grim can provide and replace it with the Ant Route which is pretty good too. 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder will not get your Cabal Rituals to Threshold, you can bank on it. The Ari Lax lists consistently get to threshold by playing 12 Cantrips and 6 discard spells.
What makes Chants good in TES is that Chant + Empty the warrens is a powerful combo because it requires very little mana and can be pulled of very quickly against blue. Chant-> Burning wish/ Infernal into Empty is 7 mana which is significantly less than 9 for this deck. This deck could work, but some further tuning is required. I advise upping the cantrip count to enable threshold and dig for the Win Con. Also I prefer duress effects over chant effects. At times Chant is better, but it strains the manabase and a 2 colour manabase is much more stable. You also need 1 less mana on your combo turn and duress effects help you reach threshold.
The cunning wish idea is pretty solid though. Seems better than Grim at times. You are not forced to MD bounce, which is awesome. I also might want to play the 4th Cabal in the board to wish for. I'd replace 1 cabal MD with a cantrip. One problem with wish is: It does not grab Tendrils after you Adn. You MUST hit an infernal + LED to finish the combo. This IMO is the reason why Grim is better. 20 Storm Brainfreeze is difficult and I'm sure that is pretty rare to hit.
I advise playing regular ANT with Grims, TES or a UBR ANT with burning wish (I play this as it is has a stabler manabase compared to TES).
Several people in my meta run Cunning Wish as a replacement for of Grim Tutor with good success. I still think that best storm list is Ari Lax's straight UB though.
Comments on your list:
- I'd rather run Preordain instead of SDT
- Dark Confidant is 4 or 0 IMO
- I don't see reason for additional IGGY in board
- I prefer lands to Chrome Moxes
- +1 Island, -1 Swamp MD
- Vilik
It probably averages around 3 for no protection and that is with a hand that needs 2 more cards. It really depends on hand and the pressure. My playstyle also alters like using brainstorms aggressively if Im on a clock.Originally Posted by TheShaun
Jamie, I appreciate your feedback. I almost always have top mana. For me, swamp is the preferential mana source as the deck NEEDS swamp. Its a preferential thing. I do not like to identify this with ANT. The reason cunning wish works here is that it is synonymous with protection and the deck runs a slower tempo. I enjoy it, but sometimes it sucks to not be able to get AN.
ivanpei, you are almost entirely correct in your assessment. 9 mana seems like alot, but if I'm doing that its probably an EOT tutor protection into 6 mana ant the following turn. Being able to cut down the cost this way is fair. But your situation is just as common. Remember, AN is not necessary for this deck. Plus, I only play 2 Cunning. most of the time I'm using infernal tutors. On threshold side, I dont need thresh. Generally, I have 3 lands in play when I go off usually. Figure 2 are fetches, I've probably got a cantrip in yard, and another in hand or a top in play. I have probably dark rit, a led, infernal, and cabal. This will get thresh with infernal on the stack saccing led and finding something with the top to cash in. Sure, sometimes I don't have the thresh, but it is not that needed. If I can run 3 colors and be screwed by waste land 1 out of 20 games and have the power of chant, I'm fine with that. I'm very conscientious with the tundras , not fetching them till the turn I go off. You dont need 20 storm brainfreeze as they have taken 12 cards from the library generally. Reducing storm to 15 plus original.
I've seen the grim tutor list and I don't really like having the grim life loss and iggy lopping with 6 life loss. 6 Is a realistic life total I'm Iggy'in at in this deck. Furthermore, when I AN, if I flip tendrils or Iggy or the infernal/led, I can win. Not to mention, top abusing shuffles with extra infernal trying to find a missing piece is also viable.
Lastly on the white, Most games versus creature decks, I've sided out the chants and silences. I am now playing 2 color ant! Huzzah! In all seriousness, my fetches allow me to play around wasteland which is commonly played in aggro decks.
Thanks for the timely replies everyone. Hope I answered well enough.
Edit: vilik, once again this is not straight AN. It plays differently because I run tops. Dark confidant doesnt have to be 4. Why would it? It sucks flipping more with them or AN. Additional iggy isn't necessary, it just provides another flip off of AN or lets you use more cards for more storm. Moxes are important for AN with no mana floating as well as needing to fix. Again, I prefer the swamp because g2, white is sided out in most cases, plus I can fetch blue whenever and if theey wanna wasteland my U-sea, fine. That's why I play them.
Last edited by mario91234; 03-28-2011 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Forgot a reply
So I guess I'll be "that guy" and ask. Why would I want to play Cunning Wish in this deck over Burning Wish in TES to get the same exact stuff? it's basically the same thing even down to the Silences and Chants, just no red for Burning Wish. Seems like a combination of Ant and TES to me. I really just would rather go one direction or the other. Ant has the better mana, TES has more disruption and better sb choices. Cunning wish is a nice idea though if it's going to go two color.
This. And Cunning Wish is terrible. If you want to cast it before turn 3 you are card disadvantaging yourself or you have to waste a petal/rit. Add that to a low land count and Cunning Wish just seems bad. To be honest this really doesn't need it's own thread, it's ANT with cunning wish in place of Grim since I've seen plenty of ANT players going toward white to deal with the meta.
Chant is better against blue, but you must have noticed the amount of Rock decks out there. Thoughtseizing/duressing their Thoughtseize/Hymm is pretty important IMO. Atm, I think that Chant effects are incredibly narrow and don't belong MD. I'm playing TES with Chants replaced by Thoughtseize and just straight UBr. Works like a charm, even has a basic Island and swamp. I drop fetches for basics the first 2 turns and just fetch red on the turn I'm going off.
I believe that UBr TES is the best choice in this meta (wastelands, discard). Chants were better in the heavy blue days, but now there's tons of discard in the Rock/deadguy/Team America, making Chant less useful. What red adds thought is huge. It ups your win count from 7 (4 Infernal, 2 Grim, 1 Adn) to 10 (4 Infernal, 4 Wish, 1 Adn, 1 Empty). More threats-good. I've been playing storm since the Pre-Adn days and 11 was the right number ideally but 10 is close enough. Another important point is the mighty warrens. Everybody has forgotten just how good Empty is. Empty is a 1 mana less Adn and an alternate win condition that does not Fizzle/require an engine. Of course you are weak to EE and Stifle so you should just scoop to Team America and go get a coffee.
Also 8 Tutors lets you win much easier off Adn. Having to hit a tutor off Adn is pretty shitty in the UB versions. I realized my fizzle rate from about 15 life is still roughly 15-20%. This IMO is pretty unacceptable for me. I did an analysis of the UB list and found out why: You need to hit a Tutor or Tendrils, which is 7 cards. If you just hit Infernal, you need Iggy or LED to hellbent it. This is a tough job IMO. With the Burning wish versions you have Tutor, Wish, Tendrils and Empty which is 10 cards. Wish and Empty the Warrens do not require LED which is a big bonus. Also by not running Cabal Ritual and playing Rite of Flame instead, you have also lowered your average manacurve, helping you dig deeper.
Isn't this just ANT with Tops(pre-Mystical ban tech)?
I think you should play TES. A handsome devil just got into Top 4 at SCG LA with it. Apparently killing on turns 1 and 2 is actually really important.
Btw, you have balls of steel playing just 13 lands, all non-basic at that. I salute you sir. Great job!
Play 4 doomsday if you want resilient storm. It can win through almost all the hatecards you listed.
This list is all over the place except in the right area.
Resilient and by far the hardest combo to play is Doomsday storm.
TES has a lot of resilience, but sometimes simply scoops to a wasteland.
ANT is near wasteland proof, but sometimes can't find action (non-grim-list), The grim list however has worse ad nauseams on average, but has a bit more business.
Alright guys, I unnderstand some of the difficulties and will address them below.
Firstly, why run this list over the red version: I feel that the UBR version has too much business IMO. And with more business your turn 1,2,3 wins skyrocket becuase more god-draws are simply availible. It is basically TES with no gold lands and substituting for TES' cards. If I wanted to play a fast list, I would. This deck is not designed to be fast, but must be able to cope and be able to go off (turns 1,2) should the hand be attainable. Cunning wish is here to 1: ease the mana base and make playing with only basics feasible and 2: Allow the AN turn 1-2 hand. Other complements of it are finding answers to things you wouldnt have MD in a UBR version. Sure, you have burning wish, but it is off main color and at sorcery speed. For an extra mana, the instant speed is truly incredible. For this deck, it prefers to win in 1 turn as apposed to empty tokens. Empty is still a viable option for storm combo, just not for this deck. This deck can deal with the blue hate.
On the fizzle rate of AN, If I hit an AN at 17+ life, I have a very very small fizzle chance. I can certainly generate an absurd amount of mana and with IGG, TOA, 2 Tops, Infernal Tutor, petals and moxes, I almost always can find the missing piece be using the top and shuffle effects of infernal or pondering via a petal or any other method I see availible. Yes, there is no guarenteeing that I will find what I need, but the chance is very high. Siding in the IGG vs aggro decks makes better AN as counter intuitive as it seems. Hitting the IGG is always a good thing.
Again, TES wants to win fast. That's how it is designed. The penalty is a lack of dealing with common threats apropriately. It is not unstable, but is simply raw power manifested. I would play TES if that is what I wanted to do. This deck allows for a more fluid game play and does not rely on incredible luck off. TES probably looks at around 12 cards between the starting hand and a cantrip. This deck probably looks at 22. The reasoning for tops is pretty clear IMO. It generates what this deck needs in finding the combo pieces. Cantrips only work once where as top can let you look at 6 each game.
I have not spent enough time in the Doomsday threads as I would have liked. It's good, but I want to win on the turn I go off. Losing half my life and shipping the turn is too dangerous for me.
DDFT is very well able to win the turn it casts DD..
Ddft is the most flexible storm deck if you know what hate you are expecting. But it also needs more resources and planning to play to max efficiency. Personally I believe dday is a great deck but the complexity and proneness to punting put me off it in tournament settings. Casually, under no pressure, I love the deck. In a tourney, after hours of playing, I wish I could just ritual, ritual Adn. Saves me the mental strength for the next game. Maybe my mental fortitude is limited but I like to plan my mental exertion.
As for this deck, I'm sure its really good in the right meta. Most of us here are posting to make suggestions and not to just rip at the deck. I'd suggest: -1 cabal md, -1 protection spell, +2 preordain, replace chants with discard. Go ub, play 1 tundra with a chant and cabal in the board. Also speed is not a bad thing, you can win before counterbalance/hate bear comes down, bypassing the need for anti hate. Also not being able to be raced by burn/ enchantress is pretty good too.
That is fair. If I were running more than 2 Cunning's I would consider cutting a cabal, but since I do, there's no real need. If I wanted to get real techy, I could play Enlightened Tutor and just get a LED. A stretch, but might happen. I really, really don't like preordain. I don't think I've ever had a time when I was pleased to see it. I certainly wouldn't keep a hand riding on the back of it. However, a top I would. Enchant isn't a problem. Burn is well, burn. Depends on how slow the hands are on both players. Occasionally, I will board out the cunnings and throw in the 2nd AN. It basically becomes ANT at that point. Looking at it from the sideboard, alot of options open up. But yes, thanks for the suggestions everyone, it is considered. Maybe I took some of the criticism wrong.
Today, I played a guy running the ANT/doomsday sb plan. He got off the dooomsday after double duressing the 2x chants I had. He wasn't able to kill me due to lack of draw spell, and the next turn I promptly killed him. If I had duress', the MU would be a guessing game. The power level of chants is just outrageous, but I can see the problems with wasteland. I don't really feel speed is so necessary for combo if you can win turn 5 or turn 10. resolved CB is not a big deal. Deck is designed for a longer game.
wut?
Anyway, we went over Cunning Wish in the ANT thread about 9 months ago:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ils%29/page118
The TL;DR version of it all: it no worky
you tried to apply burning wish principles to cunning wish which is an entirely different animal. when I say longer, I mean not 1,2,3 win. City of traitors? really? I already have stated several times that this doesn't need extra speed. Plus, you guys acted like brain freeze was a primary win condition. Pact of negation was the most significant thing I got out of that. Will probably test. The philosophy of chant over duress is that chant says deal with me or face the possibility of losing while duress leaves a gaping hole in the iggy loop.Not being access IGGy is pretty painful for it. So many wish targets. Th neat thing about cunning is that it can save you mana via on the opponents turn. Wipe away hits everything and chant deals with everything in hands. That's all I need. Burning lacks not only in being off the ideal colors, but it requires you to play the card on your turn, potentially allowing the opponent to recover.All in all, cunning is entirely different.
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