interesting for me would be, to mark the difference between BWG Deadguy and The Rock as CorpT's List for me basically looks like a Rock Deck
Don't get me wrong, this is no intent to bitch around and complain, but I think we really need to define WHAT Deadguy is. I think that the thread lost its focus on the last few Sites, as there is no general direction for the deck and the suggestions that came. In the last few Sites, streamings I remember were
- BW-Vial (in the direction of DnT)
- BW The Gate
- BWG (looking like Rock for me)
- BG (as Bokwinkle adresses)
- BW Equipped Dudes (I would count my current list into this)
and that are only the one I remember at the moment.
Just adding green for Goyf and KotR feels like admission that Rock is strictly better than DeadGuy - I'm not saying that assessment is wrong, but at the same time I'm not willing to admit that it's right either. Generally I haven't played with or around with the Rock builds enough to determine what the matchups are like when compared to deadguy.
Personally, I'd rather run wastelands, and running wasteland in a 3-color deck seems counter-intuitive to me. I'm not saying it's impossible...I guess I should test it.
____________
@Leto: You play a dangerous game. The trick with magic is that many people insist that there are only 3 types of decks anyway (aggro, control, combo), some people say that Finkel has only ever played one deck...lol.
I think the key to the development of the deck is not where it started or where it is now, but rather where do you want to be. If the rock is where you want to be...then deadguy is, well...dead.
The truth is that since the printing and inclusion of SfM that this deck has been hovering somewhere between the gate and the rock, but has not had the tournement success that either of those decks have enjoyed. Bottom line, the Gate is mono-color, the rock is 3-color...I think that Deadguy is the 2-color deck that resides between them, and I think there is a card base to support that approach, but I (personally) have not found that optimal deck in that 2-color shell...yet. So, therein lies my personal goal for Deadguy:
"A 2-color mid-range deck that is primarilly black for discard that utilizes wastelands and efficient and versatile removal."
But that is strictly my opinion...which is worth just about nothing...maybe a little less...lol.
Last edited by bokwinkle; 03-31-2011 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Leto posted at the same time, so I wanted to adress his comments without a double post.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:Originally Posted by laststepdown
I think more than color combinations, you should look at the play style of the deck. Are you being aggressive or are you being controlling? If you're aggro most of the time, IMO, you're less Rock and more Deadguy. If you're controlling most of the time, you're more Rock and less Deadguy.
Honestly, I don't really care what you call it, as long as it works. I'm not going to not play a color because I want to call my deck Deadguy and not Rock.
Personally, I think that Top v Vial is one of the major difference points between Rock and Deadguy. If you're overly concerned with your life total and want to filter your draws, you take the slowness of Top as an acceptable card. If you want to apply pressure and disrupt at the same time, you run Vial so that you can do that. You exchange a worse top deck late in the game for a better early game.
I have a friend who swears by the more Rock/Controlling version of this. We play 90% of the same cards and completely different strategies. He plays Top and I play Vial.
As far as Wasteland goes... it's very easy in a 3 color deck. This isn't Zoo (which is playing Wasteland now anyway) that relies on Nacatl and thus colored duals. This is a deck with mostly B with no WW or GG cards. You play Scrublands and Bayous and a single Savannah. I'm not sure why you can't run Wasteland and a 3 color deck. Canadian Thresh does it. Team America does it. Rock does it. Why can't a deck with Vials do it?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
@CorpT: I'm with you on the name thing - I don't really care what it's called either. But for the sake of discussion I'd like a little definition so that we can all talk with the right people. If DeadGuy needs three colors to win, then for the sake of leading the discussion I'd rather archive this thread and everyone move to the rock thread. But I'm not going to split hairs here, I have no problem with talking about 3-color (rock) lists or even mono-black (gate) lists because we're generally talking about the same cards and deck approach anyway. However, to be fair, it is a little disrupting to be talking about a traditional B/w deadguy list and have someone say "you should just play the rock, it's so much better, why are you trying to play deadguy"....this is the exact reason why I was trying to avoid the discussion about subbing green for white - because this isn't the "Deadguy Ale (B/g Confidant)" thread.
I think one of the key things that I took from your last post was that you talked about deadguy being aggro and about running vial twice - but of the 2 most recent winning lists only one of them played vial, and neiter played green or top. And both decks played about 9 removal spells and 8-10 discard spells - which seems pretty far from aggro to me. Frankly, I've never considered deadguy to be aggro, regardless of it's use of vial, top, green cards, etc.. I've always seen deadguy as midrange, bordering on control because of the sheer number of control spells in the deck and the lack of 1 CMC agressive creatures - and this is one of the many reasons I've never thought that vial was an appropriate card choice, since I've always seen it as a card for aggro decks...(I could be very wrong on this, and the fact that there is a winning deadguy list with vial in it does infact insinuate that I am wrong, lol - but that is how I've felt about vial regardless).
Wasteland in 3-color decks...yes you are right, there are plenty that do it, and they are also the argument for not doing it. I've said before that I'm not a legacy guy, I'm a standard and limited guy (and not exactly proficient at either), but when I started researching the format a couple of months ago a friend of mine who is a fairly accomplished legacy player said this to me:
"Wasteland is the most played card in legacy, remember that and you'll do fine."
I'm not overly paranoid about loosing to wasteland, but I think it's just good judgement to plan on seeing it, and to have a gameplan that can get you around it. You can do it in a deck that runs 3 colors as proven by those other decks - but I think we can both agree that there are other factors there.
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
i think you guys need to less concerned about the thread name. Yes there are differences between different decks but some people like changing it up. I think the rock and deadguy ale are similar than you guys think. I used to play deadguy, then survival came around and i switched to the rock because i felt i needed more pressure. however, i didn't run the stock list. I took the mystics from deadguy. Most people in the threads said mystic sudcked... o boy, they were wrong. IT saved me all day in san jose. they play VERY similar. I'm thinking about switching to deadguy and making a drew iwth maindecked relics. However, i just don't like swinging with bears and not really applying pressure.
GBW Would be a Rock variant, not Deadguy. Deadguy is B/W. I agree, with Green you gain dudes...good dudes. But, you do lose the consistency of just playing two colours and being able to laugh (mostly) at Wasteland and other manabase disruption. The problem? You literally can't stand up to bigger creatures except by removing them or by having more abilities (deathtouch, flying, trample, first strike, etc.)
Right now, I'm basically running Deadguy with Persecutor, or B/W Gate.
-Matt
Yeah I'm in the same boat as you guys.... I used to play Eva Green a lot. Then spashled white for Sword to Plowshares because I was getting really annoyed the black removal would sometimes whiff....
Then my meta at the time was a lot of merfolk and Stoneforge came out so I switched to black/white vial. I kind of liked it but I don't like the fact that the creatures aren't big enough. So I splashed green for Knight of the Reliquary.
LOL, if they were to ever print a better Hypnotic Specter maybe I'd play Eva green again since I really liked the explosiveness of the deck. But I know they won't do that. I like the classic version of Deadguy for the amount of disruption it plays (hymn, hypie, thoughtseize, wasteland and Vindicate) but the creatures are tiny for the most part.
The difference between Deadguy and Rock/Junk/Dark Horizons, is that deadguy has a good matchup -vs- Rock/Junk/Dark Horizons, lol. seriously.
Deadguy is a B/W tempo deck, regardless of vials or whatever creatures you run or want to argue about, Deadguy is an aggressive deck with disruption. Wasteland, discard and point removal with little annoying bastard-ass creatures that everyone hates.
Rock is a control deck, a metagame-defined control deck, with disruption, point removal, board sweepers, wasteland, maze of ith, and ass beaters, huge, game swinging, smash your life total into dust ass beaters.
We play at a faster tempo than rock in a semi-swarm (sliver-mentality was pretty accurate for mom lists and describing the equipment) T E M P O
Rock is slower and plays more powerful spells. C O N T R O L
My signature.
Apparently, because I play green in my tempo deck, I'm playing control.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
nope, your'e not playing control. you're just not playing deadguy. deadguy is a specific color tempo deck. would you call a UW tempo deck deadguy? or a BG tempo deck deadguy?
My signature.
That wasn't meant for you but for the people claiming I'm playing Rock.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
all good :)
My signature.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=809077
this 4-0'd mtgo legacy daily last week, if anyone wasn't watching.
I feel for as much traffic this thread is getting, this deck is pretty popular, so why not so much on results lately?
and comments on ghost council of orzhova??
i follow the SCG Open series, planning to go to louisville and playing deadguy if all works out (possible new job and small children may hinder that) anyone else going to any of these??
My signature.
I'm playing deadguy at Atlanta SCG this weekend. Not sure on the list yet but it will not be with vials.
Interesting deck. Still hard to go without 4 Thoughtseizes IMHO.
Ghost council for the mana is a bit pricey IMO. My reasoning is that for 4 mana, I would rather have Elspeth, Knight Errant and either make dudes bigger and flying or make soldiers. Ghost council could be annoying to play against but there are better options at that cost.
I won't be going to that tournament but I'm planning on going to GP Providence.
No results? I placed second at a GPT. I think that's decent, considering I threw the deck together less than a week before.
-Matt
I went 4-1 at a weekly local last night, I lost to SneakShow and pounded Goblins and Zoo. I had a close match against a wierd version of Angel Stompy (this was a much harder matchup that I would have anticipated) and I had a gimmie match against team america where he was land flooded in game one (I discarded or destroyed his only relevant cards while playing around daze) and he had to mull to 5 and saw no colored land in game 2.
I made bad mulligan and sideboard decisions against SneakShow, otherwise I probably would have had a better chance. It also didn't help that I lost the die-roll in game 1. In game 1 I T1 thoughtsiezed on the draw and he had Show and Tell, Show and Tell, Pog, Woodfall Primus, land, land (with 2 land on the board). I had no choice but to take Pog, and lost to woodfall primus since I couldn't find an out. In game 2 I kept thinking about woodfall primus and left my swords in, not thinking about emmy and Pog...it didn't matter though because I kept a bad hand (4 or 5 land or something?) and just drew more land...I probably need to go to 21. I managed to shut off Sneak attack with a revoker, but he intuitioned for show and tell's and got a quick Pog into play - at the end of the game he showed me that he had 3 sneak attacks in hand...lol. I would have had to have had a pretty good hand in game 2 to get through his hand anyway. I had a chance in game 2 if he would have revealed Emmy instead of Pog since I revealed Karakas off show and tell...but I needed a sac effect for Pog and didn't see it...so it was game.
1CMC targeting discard should be pretty good against SneakShow in most situations (if you draw it), also wasteland can be helpful. But overall I think that versions of this deck that play Abyssal Persecutor have a better chance because they build in so many sac effects (Innocent blood, Gatekeeper, etc) - I'm up to 2 maindeck edicts and 1 in the board, 6 1CMC discard spells, Plus the 2 maindeck needle effects with 2 more in the board. The scullers are fairly poor on the draw though since most of their action happens on turn 2 (between lotus petal and city of traitors) so before board for me the game comes down to drawing one of my 8 outs or them having a sub-par draw which forces them into a turn 3 play - then my Revokers, wastelands, and scullers become relevant, and the game significantly improves for me. After board I really just gain the 2 revokers and 1 edict...and to be honest the match doesn't get much better, since I basically have 9-10 relevant cards in my deck (depending on the threat they draw). If the guy I play against ever decides to play brainstorm over ponder in order to hide his cards against discard I'm going to be completely f'd. I think that unless I make some pretty significant deck changes that this matchup will continue to come down to aggressive mulligans and dice rolls...
Team Disqualified Poster - Because not everyone gets to be astronauts when the grow up.
Original Poster to the Deadguy Ale thread when Jitte was suggested:
For those running Vial-based lists, why are you not running Ethersworn Canonist in the main?
seems like a no brainer. Iunno. What would you take out? There's already bob, confidant, hymn, sfm, and sometimes revoker, sculler in at 2. Those all disrupt, provide card advantage, disable, or remove threats. Canonist slows down elves and combo, and helps against some blue instant-heavy decks. I dunno. I think this deck has a really good shot against (most) combo game one that it's not necessary because it doesn't help universally? I'd definitely want mom in with the canonist main as well
To be fair, I got the idea from this deck:
(22)
15 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
(24)
3 Goldmeadow Harrier
2 Figure of Destiny
3 Student of Warfare
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Silver Knight
4 Serra Avenger
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kitchen Finks
(14)
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
(15) SB
4 Aura of Silence
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Path to Exile
2 True Believer
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
from this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ckbuilding-ADD
Seems like converting this to Deadguy to take advantage of Bob/Discard would be fairly straightforward.
-3 Goldmeadow
-2 Figure
-3 Student
-4 Silver Knight
-2 Finks
-1 Collar
-2 Elspeth
So that's 17 cards...
+4 Confidant
+2 Tidehollow (maybe Mom instead?)
+2 Canonist
+4 Thoughtseize/IoK/Duress
+4 Hymn
+1 Other sword (B/W, B/G, R/W)
If you're really missing Vindicate, maybe drop 1 Canonist and 1 Hymn for a couple. I would save Revoker for the board to sub in against other Vial Decks, or possibly Leonin Relic-Warder. Drop Factories for swamps (or not?!), fix the sideboard with some delicious graveyard hate, and there you go.
Whatever way you want to tweak it, I feel like Canonist definitely deserves some testing. It just seems like Deadguy lists aren't abusing Vial to the same extent that Merfolk/Goblins do. I currently really hate standard players for driving up the cost of SFM and SoFI, and I really hate myself for not already having both.
Last edited by Richard Cheese; 04-01-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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