TES is on the cheaper end of decks.
I'm not so sure what collectors are gripping about. As a matter of fact I know plenty of collectors and I have never heard them mention the reserved list.
Probably because if they reprint these cards, it would sort of look like how the comic book market does. Spidermans first appearance has been reprinted a bajillion times and lots of forms, but a NM copy of his original first appearance is still worth tons.
Makes me scratch my head.
Only posts when drunk.
Fair enough. But it was piloted by people that already own 4x Goyf, Force, 10+ dual lands, etc that chose to run that particular deck. Aka, tournaments are going to be won by the best people.Originally Posted by Sintheros
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
I won one of those events with TES, but Allen and death and taxes split the one previous, and Allen was running Bant homebrew. So only one TES winning, but your point still stands.,
I swear, if EE for a second compares Time Spiral to Survival I'm going to metaphysically slap him.
The comments are indeed very enlightening. Just to throw my feelings out, because I could not find the right words to describe how I feel about this situation (i.e. enraged/neutral/sad/what's-going-on), but one of the comments from the article really summed it up for me.
Sean, you can try and back peddle on this but you put his name in the article. His company is the prime aggressor in a spiral of events that will have this game being played by men in top hats wearing monocles in a few years.
Maybe no one realizes, although they should, that this game is held afloat by people who love it, not people who are investment seeking sharks. Watching this happen to a game that I have loved for more than a decade is one of the saddest things to ever happen to my personal enjoyment.
He can come here and bully site owners to remove articles, badger you and set his twitter dogs a-barking, but the truth remains that this company is pricing people out of this game and it's going to have long term negative effects. Far worse than the implosion of vintage in my opinion. As has been said many times, there a far more people interested in legacy right now than there ever were in Vintage. Most of the people I used to play with have stopped playing the game. A large portion of these people couldn't find a regular vintage tourney so they just stopped. They didn't start playing standard or legacy, they LEFT. If legacy disappears because people are unwilling, afraid, unable to purchase cards, the legacy die hards are going to just stop playing.
That's a lot of people evaporating from the game we all love.
This isn't gold mining or playing the stock market, it's a game. It should not cost several thousand dollars to get into a game. That is what SCG is doing.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Reprinting is not an option. Alot of dealers have been screwed over multiple times by Wizards and I'm pretty sure they were on the verge of sueing. Remember berserk? That used to be an 100 dollar card. Now the original unlimited ones are only fetching 50 max because of the reprinting. Mox diamond also dropped because of FTV but not as much as it's such an in demand card after Junk became popular. They made the reserve list bullet proof because I'm sure plenty of dealers would definitely sue as wizards abusing the "premium version" loophole is bloody unethical. I know this sucks for those who want to get into legacy but can't because of the price but there's nothing that can be done.
If you wanna have fun you have to suck it up and pay for it. It's like buying a Ferarri or fast car. You want to go fast and compete? You gotta cough it up. I'm jealous of all those guys with their hot cars etc and would whine all day about not being able to afford one. But fact is, if you can't afford it, there is always World of Warcraft or other cheaper hobbies.
You have no idea how many dealers are madly pissed at wizards. I personally know a few and the extended "super rotation" really caused them to lose alot of money. I have no doubt people were getting ready to sue. Seeing how SCG is buying so high, I am pretty confident that no reprints of Duals, Forces or Wastes will be happening ever. Legacy staples will continue being at the level they are at now. I doubt they would make that decision to buy up legacy staples if they were not confident that reprints are not gonna happen. Since SCG has such close links with Wizards, I'm sure they have the best inside knowledge compared to Wizards.
I'm also sure Wizards is worried about the popularity of Legacy. The price making it inaccessible is actually a good thing for Wizards. Wizards does not make much money from Legacy players. We don't crack packs, we don't play standard events and we don't draft. By keeping Legacy expensive and only accessible to a select few, Wizards is safeguarding the bread and butter of their cash flow, Standard. I can tell you honestly that this is probably the no 1 reason. Why would you kill your own cash cow? That's why they are pushing for extended so hard, but keep on failing. Why do they refuse to abolish extended and have Legacy PTQs/ PTs since legacy is so popular? They want people to keep buying packs. Legacy players rarely buy packs/draft. Legacy becoming inaccessible forces new players to play Standard and draft, which Wizards can continue cashing in on.
The best option probably would be to make functional reprints with poison as the downside. Like wasteland with Gain 1 poison counter when it sacs or FOW which has gain 1 poison counter and lose 1 life, or duals with gain1 poison counter. This or some barely felt drawback may be the best idea.
Could be worse, we could have Yuh Gi Oh style reprints. If you have never heard of that game or how they do their reprints it's scary. They have mythic style cards be totally amazing and worth hundreds, then turn around after a few months and reprint them as commons killing the value overnight.
Or Raw Deal, where they reprinted new cards with the same name except they gave the new ones strictly better text.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Ivanpei, on what grounds would they sue? It's been thrown around, and the general consensus is that the Reserved list is in fact not legally binding. I never heard of any dealers, local shop included, threatening to sue over underextended - in fact, the tournaments are bigger now than they were before. Plus, they could actually cash in on us by selling viable legacy cards. When we buy cards that are also standard legal - hey! someone is cracking packs somewhere to put those cards on the market.
Essentially, this post boils down to my signature.
I don't think Time Spiral needs banning at this point, but from everything I've heard about speculation in that regard, the basis for banning TIme Spiral would be more based on how much it stalls out the game, rather than how "broken" it is. It is not inconceivable for the extra 5 turns to take an additional 20 minutes, or even for the match to finish 1-0. I can only imagine what kind of logistical nightmare it would be if High Tide decks routinely made the top 8, especially if the top 8 matches are untimed.
There is no reason to believe that they are advocating for a card's banning for financial reasons. And there is no reason to believe they have any influence on the DCI's decision.
Best card game ever! I wish it still existed... but cards would probably be infinity money...
EDIT: And I think unbanning Time Spiral was a semi-test to see if that much shuffling would slow the game to a halt to see if Land Tax could be allowed to be in the format.
End of turn...Morphling
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE
Oh shit me not. Wastland and FoW are not even on reserved list, why make a funcional reprint?
Also, dual lands or any card on reserved list can not be reprinted by this list as a functional reprint.
Also, SCREWED by extended rotation? Are you a dealer? You chose to buy goods, the goods became worthless, its a risk you took.
What would people say if dunno, they bought stocks and suddenly, a few years after, the company crashed rendering their stocks worthless.
OH fucking no.
First of all, the original Alpha/Beta ones are still 80$ cards while the reprinted FtV version is only 30-35$, which is a clear sign that Scordata is right in his comparison with old comic books. Secondly, nobody actually plays Berserk anymore, so there's no point in fetching unusually high prices.
This makes no sense at all. Sure, Duals won't be reprinted in the foreseeable future, but neither FoW nor Wasteland are on the Reserve List so I don't see any problems in reprinting them (well, maybe not in the regular set, but probably in some kind of premium product or promo). Come to think of it, Wasteland was already reprinted TWICE, most recently just a few months ago as a judge promo, so there.
And the most important thing: why do you actually think that reprinting a card in a very limited supply (FtV, promo etc.) makes a significant long-term change in its price? We've been there before several times: Vial and SDT were in FtV, Wasteland and SoFaI were judge promos etc. and all of these cards got only more and more expensive during last months.
- What are letters?
- Kinda like mediaglyphics except they're all black, and they're tiny, they don't move, they're old and boring and really hard to read. But you can use'em to make short words for long words.
I'm definitely not a dealer. I won't be spending so much time on these forums if I was. I play for fun and I hate seeing new players being unable to get into the format due to the price. However, reprinting is not an option. Wizards already has a terrible rep for screwing around with the secondary market prices (for their own benefit) that even if you force down dual prices down to 15-20, enough people will be pissed with the volatility of MTG prices. MTG is different from Yugioh or other TCGs because of what Dachmai mentioned, regulating the prices and not screwing people over. Since worldwake is out of print now, why not print Theme decks with Jace TMS? People who bought Jace TMS for 100 bucks a pop would be screwed over and very unhappy.
So in the future, knowing you are likely to be screwed over by wizards when you invest into something expensive due to reprints, would you buy those Jaces-esque level cards? Reputation and confidence in the regulating authority is very important. There are set rules and Wizards has to stick to them. There are reasons why Yugioh players "graduate" to MTG and not the other way around. Volatility that is initiated by the parent company is not good for business. Wizards recognizes that and won't mess around too much with the secondary market prices.
How about this: I don't want to be screwed over by Wizards stifling my favorite format. If Legacy goes the way of Vintage, guess what? It'll be more difficult to find a Legacy scene. Do I have duals? Not apart from Badlands. But I have Forces, and Wastes, and have multiple decks put together, and I would be happy if those prices were brought back down to reasonable levels, because then the format would be better off.
To put in bluntly, the value of Legacy cards for most players lies not in its monetary worth, but in being able to play these older cards in a hugely diverse format. Why do you think everyone is holding onto their cards? Why do you think Starcity has to offer more and more for them? It's not "I'm holding out for the big bucks" it's "I know I'll always want to and have the ability to play these, so I just don't want to get rid of them." These players are banking on these cards retaining their value in terms of playability, not in terms of raw cash, and Wizards should not cater to "cash" crowd because, ultimately, they are a minority who are holding the format back.
Holding the format back? Back from what exactly? Legacy is bigger and healthier than ever before and is only growing, despite all the doomsayers.
What do people want more? Legacy PT and PTQ's? Well, that most likely won't ever happen since it would be bad business for wizards. Old cards are out of print, and they aren't making money selling booster boxes of them so why ever support it in that way?
You answer your own question right there. If they tackle this the right way they can make a lot of profit.
Yes Legacy is mainly the secondary market and Wizards doesn't make any money off us. But it doesn't have to be this way. Why not cash in on the Legacy crowd too?
Much better solution than sitting around and allowing a good format to be inaccessible to newer players.
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