While I'll concede that this new kid on the block, Spiral Tide, is absurdly good (I play it and I'm pretty confident I can win against everything in Legacy right now), people should just learn which are the deck's weaknesses. The real problem, as with any other combo deck that pops up, is that people prefer to focus on beating the other archetypes and usually ignore combo because, well, "you'll meet 1 combo each 9 rounds", "it folds to Cannonist or double discard" or BS like that.
There's no doubt on it being better than ANT and TES, since Time Spiral is so broken that it can be considered a 85%-success Ad Nauseam that doesn't care about lives and doesn't decrease its effectiveness. Spiral Tide is built to be a mid-game combo deck that packs redundancy and consistency at a great level. You can't expect to fold it with a single piece of hate if you don't follow with anything else. This is valid for any other combo deck, barring Belcher.
What I've found out, especially for those SCG lists that are really slower than the Cloud of Faeries versions, is that they tend to have a bit of difficulty against fast aggro (Cat Sligh-Wild Nacatl/Lynx+ Burn), because they're built to be consistent and they sacrifice a bit of speed.
Being forced to go off on turn 3 is really risky because it weakens the effectiveness of Candelabra, especially on a lone High Tide, and they must rely on finding a Time Spiral in time before being killed. Now, Time Spiral on 3 lands is pretty likely to fizzle, too, if they don't manage to find a second HT, and chaining multiples Meditate is really risky considering that you're spending half of your mana and you cut yourself out of Turnabout (3 on 6, 3 remaining).
Also, look at those lists. They are crafted on playing in a disruption metagame, black (Dark Horizons) or blue. They run 3 Meditates which are great against those decks but pretty weak against aggro. They only play 4 Force of Wll as protection.
Putting a fast clock with moderate disruption suite really hurt this deck. This deck aims to cantrip to find the right cards withing the first 2-3 turns, and giving it short time means it does not manage to gather all the resources (protection) to go off through some Mindbreak Trap or REB/Silence. My thought is that you don't need more than 4 sb slots to properly fight Tide combo if you're already fast enough maindeck or run any other form of disruption. Fast clock is one of them.
Hell, even Spell Pierce on High Tide means you'll have to have 2 to 4 mana more to go on, and often leads to not being able to succeed.
You people should stop complaining about Spiral Tide being so broken that it survives multiple discard, because every good players should know that you cripple combo with reactive disruption, while proactive can easily be fought with a good use of cantrips or replenishing hands with Meditate. Luck happens, but that's what you get when playing combo: random wins pulled out off bad situations.
The fact that this deck needs to protect 2 cards to go off, also, makes the "strip your hand" quite utopistic. Sure, there are times when Hymn to Tourach will take out your Tide and Spiral, but usually those decks can be easily defeated in the end if they don't follow with a good clock, just by recovering and chaining cantrips. That's why saying that Pox would take down Spiral Tide is a mistake, because it means thinking that you can beat combo with a worse, sorcery-speed version of Landstill.
-----------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
How ignorant and narrowminded.
hey guys- i'm just getting back into the game from a 5-year hiatus.
Piceli89 this was originally intended for you but your inbox is full or something similar.
i just started testing high tide today. i just recently got back into the game but i've been doing my research on legacy. i've been using the hatfield's most recent list (with intuition instead of the 2nd MoM) and here are a few things i've considered changing:
1. fetch to island ratio. i feel like more fetches is better, because you have more shuffle effects for your brainstorms and sometimes ponders. obviously this opens you up more to stifle but i feel it might be worth it.
2. cutting the MoM and maindeck BSZ for 2 preordain. my reasoning behind this is that MoM and the maindeck BSZ are win-more cards. by having 2 extra cantrips, you improve your chances of going offl in time and also (thought not as important) decrease your chances of bricking on a time spiral. you obviously can't merchant scroll for BSZ then, but usually when i'm ready to cast BSZ i dont mind spending the extra 3 mana to merchant scroll for cunning wish for BSZ.
let me know your thoughts- and i'd love to see the list you've been playing with.
brent
also, you mentioned a cloud of faeires version- could you post that? it seems like its not optimal but it'd definitely be easier on the wallet
Welcome to TheSource, we have threads for discussing the deck itself on this forum:
[Old] Spiral Tide thread and [PRIMER] Spiral Tide thread
Before posting, I would advise you to read the "Site Rules for TheSource" posted by Bardo first.
His list does not feature Academy Ruins...
Also: Tezzeret needs more artifacts to be worth his mana cost
Chalice + BS & STP has already been called..
1 single basic land in a list that is very mana hungry?
This list sucks, which is double sad, because finishing of his more than debatable statesments with a nice creative list might have given more weight to his thoughts..
Congratulations on posting my following sentence as to why... wait...
End of turn...Morphling
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE
This is fantastic! Survival was a turn 3-4 Combo Deck too and got banned because people don't want to metagame. Here the whole shit repeats! The Money Barrier caused by the candelabras (keeping it from being widely played) is the only reason we're not having a new witch-hunt already
For those who missed it, the guy who said "playing the metagame" means "maindecking hate to fight q specific format warping card/archetype". Play it or Hate it, you crying noobs!
I will make use of every tool that fate presents.
It's called double disynergy, it's the new tech:
Chrome Mox demands low artifact count, Tezz 2.0 demands high artifact count (more than 30 to be truly broken)
Chalice demands 2 mana turn 1, otherwise a Turn 2 Chalice@1 is horrible, and StP and Brainstorms demands Chalice to be set at non-one.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
The big problem with Spiral Tide is that the main answer for it is "Be faster." Because the deck is format-defining as speed. Kill by turn four or you can't play the deck. In online testing, I've only ever lost to Dredge, Affinity, Solidarity, ANT, and some stupid Forgemaster deck that killed me turn one with a Blightsteel Colossus (Which I'm now building.)
I will say this. Spiral Tide is a stronger deck than Vengevine Survival. Not because of what it can do. But because of what you can't do to it. Vengevine Survival, for all of its massive power, could be hated out. A Swamp and an Extirpate was a huge step in the right direction. Spiral Tide has an answer for -every- solution for it other than just "Be faster" or "Be equally fast with a little more disruption."
Seriously, hating out the deck is an act of god. I know. I play it. It shrugs off hate like no deck I've ever seen ever. It can spend all of its resources removing your hate, countering your hate, then recover like it's nothing.
Add a Thoughteize/Duress to that and its a huge step in the right direction as well against Spiral Tide. CounterTop, like against just about any combo deck, is a beating in itself.
I also disagree that it's better than ANT/TES, as mentioned in an earlier post. Both have more disruption and are faster than this T4 deck. I'm not saying that ST is a bad deck (it's very good), but it's far from unstoppable as some like to believe. I just hope that all this moaning about the deck doesn't lead to a banning, like when some moaned loud eonugh about Survival...
Like I insinuated, its a problem when the format becomes "play the same deck type and outclock them or build a deck specifically to hate them"
It isn't up to the players to maindeck tons of specific hate just because a deck is so dominating, that's what we call format degeneration
I will make use of every tool that fate presents.
Luv ya european point of view, matt.
PS. I was horrified not finding One of your articles this week. Guess everyone deserves holiday XD
Dude this post was just amazing.
In other news, as about 99% have said, yes Time Spiral is a very good deck, but no it is not format dismantling, Alix and Jesse are just really good pilots playing a very good deck.
Team Hammafist
Looks like another cheap shitty sensation.
Oh, and Type 2 GP Dallas Top-8 had 32 Jaces 2.0 (and 5 Jaces 1.0 to fight bigger one). Now that's some serious crap!
Last edited by eq.firemind; 04-11-2011 at 10:02 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
another SCG article to add to the BANTIMESPIRAL craze:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...ve_Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Recruiter.html
(Quoting Drew Levin "Time Spiral is the best deck in Legacy". Guys, sell your Wastelands grab your Time Spirals Candelabras now)
The article is much better though, although I'm really starting to think there's a conspiracy theory with
1. SCG out of stock on Candelabra: articles on how Time Spiral is superbly broken
2. SCG has a stash of FoW: article that "I will not play a deck without FoW without any reason"
Lol, probably not, but just some fun dumb conspiracy theories to troll on :P
Regarding Time Spiral being broken, my personal solutions are:
1. Play Solidarity without High Tides maindeck.
2. Play MBC with Duress and Extirpates maindeck. (Yes fuck you 4 Extirpate is good maindeck)
3. Play Infect Berserk
4. Play Belcher/SI/Cheerios
Oh wait, 4 bad decks beat Spiral Tide, nevermind, I forget that SCG circuits are reluctant to stop playing petdecks that lose to Spiral Tide, and SCG circuits refuse to play bad decks that beat the decks they want to ban, so the 5th solution is:
5. BAN TIME SPIRAL!
(On a serious note, just play Junk/Team America/Bug Thresh/UWb Landstill/Ugb Jacestill with Extirpates postboard, or play decks that win faster or UB Merfolks with Extirpates. Extirpate says I don't care how many FoW/PoN you have in your hand, you can't resolve High Tide you don't win. People don't realize that the biggest weakness of Tide decks is losing to Extirpate, unless they have a 4th Tide in the Wishboard. But because we always think Extirpate sucks, so we will continue to lose to Vengevival, to High Tide, and to whatever deck that comes out next. Stop whining and look at how to beat decks if it really becomes a problem. I personally would just play Solidarity because it's fun to go off on your opponent's High Tide, or if you want to rub it in, go off with them at everystep, let them resolve their time spirals, draws, untaps and you do the same as well but be annoying and keep saying "In response, in response", then when they try to brainfreeze/BSZ you, you do it to them but kill them first because you dominate the stack war.)
@EQ_firemind: wow, every deck played 4 Jace 2.0? Awesome format right there!
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
It will be interesting how the format develops once Surgical Extraction comes out in the next set. 8 Extirpate would be a good way to STFU the Girls Who Cry Wolf over at the SCG website.
P.S., I will always be packing my Pox deck with me in case a metagame feels like it's getting too many combo decks. 4 Extirpate + random discard = the griefs!
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Time Spiral might be the best 6 mana spell in legacy right now, while the deck is very good and consistent. Timespiral is not even close to be as strong as Mystical Tutor or suvival where. 15 card Sideboard is really annoying when there is so many decks to beat and so many good other decks that arent deck to beat. Its no as fast as many other storm combos. Seeing them go off before turn 3 is very small.
32 jace, 32 preordain and 16 Tectonic edge, 4 Lotus cobra 4 Stoneforge mystics 4 Squadron hawks. That is the standard format!
The SCG circuits are full of Idiot Magic Player Syndrome. People would rather play bad aggro decks and bitch about good decks than actually play decks that beat the good decks. If all the aggro players suddenly started playing Team America, Junk w/ Extirpate, Tempo Threshold, and Dreadstill, Spiral Tide would run crying into the corner (as would most of the combo decks in the format).
Wow. I'd rather punch myself in the genitals repeatedly, WITH A HAMMER, than play standard right now. I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME WE CAN HAZ BAN ON JACE 2.0 WIZARDS???!!!!111??!!!11
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
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