Counterspell is already strong in Legacy. Imagine Counterspell with an ability to give you free mana to win next turn, or put your opponents way behind in the game.Originally Posted by perm
FYI, in Vintage, people have to think twice about FoW'ing against a deck with UU open because having your FoW drained = losing. It's not really the price increase of Drain in the format that will be a hindrance (it would probably easily cost $300-400 a piece), it's the fact that it creates a ton of stalemates in Counterwars, and become a format on dodging and answering Drains i.e. playing Discard etc.
Mana Drain is not borderline playable at all, not even in Vintage.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
You're forgetting about one card that was actually banned in the now-defunct 1.5 and restricted in Vintage.
QFT!
every now and then some random advocates mana drain for legacy
FORGET it FOOLS
way too powerful - there are so many other cards to be unbanned in legacy before this broken piece (dragon dragon y not?)
mtgpimp
huh? cane?
mtgpimp
Mana Drain might not even be played if it were unbanned. It certainly isn't broken, and God knows control could use some new tools in this format. And before you ask, I used to play when Mana Drain was unbanned in old 1.5, and the only reason people accepted its banning at the time was price tag. Obviously that consideration is out the window now, so...
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I was playing in that era too, was decent in the scepter control builds but that was about it.
Seems like a sure fire way to make Gifts Ungiven more played than it is now (0 sightings in the last 18 months at the top tables)
West side
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I hope Dragon was a joke...
... but it will not be unbanned regardless. Being able to just end the game in a draw when you don't have the win in hand in a fast and consistent combo deck is not all that healthy for the format.
What about Memory Jar? I know we all remember how busted it was, but honestly I can't think of it being all that strong in current Legacy with much of the acceleration still banned. (and tinker of course)
Of course there *could* be a completely new deck design that broke it again... just can't come up with what that is at the moment.
BTW - I admit "fringe playable" was an exaggeration (in regards to Drain) I was simply trying to express that it is not immediately considered - like force of will is - in vintage.
THREAD IS DE-RAILED =====>
Back on topic, what's going to be the fate of Wastelands now? Will we ever see it dropping back to at least $35-40??? There are ongoing EBay auctions for Korean Wastelands (which I'm interested in) and they are now happily sitting at Buy it Nows at $130++. There is no way I am going to pay that much ever. I bought my other 2 Korean Wastelands at $60 and $70 just a month before the price increase and I thought that was a little over the top. It's going to be near impossible to get the MPR Foil and Korean versions for less than $90 any time soon now.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Jar, snicker. It's acceleration was Grim Monolith, Key, and Ritual. Umm, those are still around. It didn't rely on tinker much for the eternal versions. It would still be busted as hell.
Mana drain is a joke. I still have mine so I wouldn't mind, but I really wouldn't want to have to play against Welder Slaver that much though.
if you have a playset of candleabras you won't need to give a shit about wasteland
:p
mtgpimp
Wasteland and Force of Will are (imo) both on shaky ground at the moment... If nothing happens (reprint wise) they will continue to go up, no doubt about it. Force is a bit safer I believe as they have yet to have any form of promo (judge foil, etc) of it as of yet, and generally those type of promo's don't have an effect on the originals value. IF wasteland get's reprinted again, I can't see it continuing to rise, although depending on the availability of the reprint, it may just steady off at $50-$60 and not drop.
Gaea's Cradle is very subtley creeping it's way up as well.
Dual Lands are very likely going to be around $50+ (non-blue) to $100+ (sea's + whatever the other hot U producing ones are at the moment) barring something insane happening. The best *solution* I've heard anyone come up with is a "dual land" that only counts as one type of land, kinda like Bosk (I.E. it produces U/B but only counts as a swamp, etc) to make very strong replacements while still having a substantial amount of difference in power.
However you lose Mana Vault, Vampiric, Mystical, Tinker and YawgWin. Just not sure it would be as dominant as "Broken Jar.dec" was.
I like the idea of Murmuring Bosk-type of dual lands, but in the end people who have the real ones will still play them and it will likely make a large difference in results. Maybe if Murmering Bosk came into play untapped unconditionally, then the difference would be more or less minimal and able to be built around.
Why can't people understand that a dual land reprinted with a drawback is a DUAL LAND WITH A DRAWBACK?? There is no such thing as a replacement dual being good enough in Legacy. In a competitive setting, every drawback is going to count or cost you the games, unless the non-ABUR Dual land is better than the original duals in a certain deck e.g. Rainbow lands in TES/Dredge is better than Dual lands in TES/Dredge.
I'm personally worried about the dual land situation myself, at this rate, the duals can only go up since the supply is definitely fixed, and there is no way they can ever reprint them (reserved list), nor can they print a better version of the ABUR Dual lands, because they are simply the best in existence (snow-covered duals would count but good luck on that ever happening).
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
@ Metalwalker
Everyone get's that they can't be AS good. However, it's a similar situation to say, wanting to play High Tide right now. Can you build it without Candelabra...yes. And you will win some (quite a few if you are a proficient pilot) games with it. But when another proficient pilot sits down and he has $1200 worth of candles in his deck... well... he should do better. If you want to be the big dog High Tide player...you have to pay to play. Same with "really good but not the same power as the originals" dual lands... you can play them, and be competitive, but at an obvious disadvantage.
It's the closest thing to a solution (if you believe a solution is indeed needed) that is "fair" to people who don't want to spend a lot to play legacy AND to those of us who either chose to do so or have played since the beginning of time... just my opinion of course.
A dual with only 1 basictype would be stronger than the old ones, since you dont have to fear hatecards like choke
Yeah I totally agree, which was the reason why we're bitching on the whole card price increases in Legacy, because it means that to truly play the OPTIMAL list for a certain deck, you are now priced out. I sit here with almost 90% of my Legacy collection, and it still annoys me because now only the people who are already in Legacy can really play the game (i.e. the people who kept their staples/duals/wastes). Everyone else who wants to kick into the format is now priced out.
Not that we want a million people in the format, but the cost increases to those staples really just happened overnight (overnight = 1-3 weeks aka very very abnormally fast). I have no doubts believing that FoW/Wastelands/Duals should all be worth at least $100+, but I have doubts they are worth this value within such a short period of sudden price shocks.
@Humphrey, yeah that should apply only to the blue duals because I would totally get a playset of those :P Something like Underdrought Sea or Frozen Vanilla Ice-cream or Scorched Island
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
It depends. On the one hand you could dodge Chokes, Submerges or islandwalking merfolk armies, but on the other hand the ability to find any color you need with any fetchland in multicolor decks (i.e. 4C CounterTop, Team America, various Bants, Thresholds or Rocks/Junks) is actually important.
- What are letters?
- Kinda like mediaglyphics except they're all black, and they're tiny, they don't move, they're old and boring and really hard to read. But you can use'em to make short words for long words.
The ability to find teh color you need with any fetchland would theoretically be built for in a situation like that. We have a full set of fetches to work with alongside the theoretical duals. Sure, your bant deck might need to play polluted delta to get your savannah equivalent (may have gone overboard a bit to make the example, but meh), but it'll still work. Either it'll work or they'll cut a color.
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
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