I might be crazy but I also don't enjoy tapping 4 mana for.. well.. anything.. I'd rather just deal with problems by smashing things into my opponents face or countering their big problems.Originally Posted by Tammit67
mana. New phone + autocorrect. Regardless, after Hymns, Thoughtseize and god knows what else, it's nice to be able to recover.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
why wouldn't you stifle the kngiht activation?
Then they just do it again next turn? They will land a bog eventually.
Deck ran fine, though terravore is very clunky.
I went 0-2 drop after hitting Enchantress and Dragon Stompy. Against Enchantress, I forced a rune halo, which let him set up an enchantress effect on turn 7, and he eventually stablized at 1. I was never in game two after a mulligan, city of solitude, elephant grass, etc. Missing land drops like a boss.
Dragon Stompy opponent gets a deck reg. error and loses game one. No board, but I know what he is playing. Mull to six finds me some countermagic at least. I stifle a chrome mox, but he goes seething song, precursor golem. I'm stuck on 2 lands, and ice it down twice to draw 3, but the 7 cards I saw didn't yield a third land or a bolt. Pit Dragon swings over head. Next game, mull again to 6, and stare down a chalice on 1. I top deck spell snare, he goes goyf, dragon, RAkroma, morph, and I can only kill 2 of the three golems with bolt.
I don't consider either of these to be good matchups, but I could have been more aggressive with mulliganing. The rest of the field was merfolk and goblins with some affinity and combo and Team America. (Why do you consider D stompy to be good for us?)
Reasons why every time I've played against dragon stompy, I've smashed it's face in:
All our removal is live against them, even though bloodmoon (bolt is obviously awesome, fire deals with some things but firespout after sideboard helps even more)
Bloodmoon isn't that big of a deal, so long as you just fetch two basic islands. They have next to no outs for either clique or jace in play.
They're a stompy deck, so hands with force of will just mean you can wait for them to spend a ton of mana, then just counter their one threat and burn the other.
I mean, I don't know how both you and others on this thread have lost to dragon stompy, their plan versus blue is usually blood moon, but we actually don't give a shit about blood moon if you just fetch correctly. One of these days I'll have one of my friends test this matchup with me, and I'll see what the real percentages are.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
Oh Eric.. I couldn't have put it better myself.
Let the bloody blood moon resolve, send some burn at their face, force their hard hitters, beat with clique, win the game.
Well, yeah Force is amazing. But they rarely keep a hand without a lock piece and a threat (or they are doing it wrong). Chalice is insane against us, moon can get set up before we have a chance to fetch, trini just rapes. And don't think they have to spend everything in one go; Often you see permanent mana sources really going the distance like chrome mox or stompy lands.
We can't always mulligan to countermagic and burn and a clock. And god forbid we are on the play. I'm not saying it is a horrendeous matchup for us, not at all, but I don't think it is what I would hope to see round after round.
Alright, well everything considered dragon stompy has some good plays, but I've never had to deal with two games worth of them.
In fact, I got to play against a dragon stompy player in my local legacy tourney, and I actually got my first ever game lose versus the deck. In that game the only reason I lost was I thought his morph was a gathan raiders, and he had a one turn window where he used seething song to flip his akroma (he had trinisphere out, so my force of will didn't work at that moment). I even still had plenty of outs, just needing to draw a second burn spell to kill his akroma, but sadly I couldn't rip it or a cantrip to try and find one. The other games involved me playing either jace and crushing him with it, or playing a few goyfs, forcing one creature, and then burning the other to stomp him. Except for the one game where he managed to get a seething song to resolve and flip his akroma, I was in control the whole time. I still stand by my assesment that dragon stompy is one of our best matchups in the metagame, and I personally would love to play the deck every round for the rest of time. I'm pretty sure I'd go 90-10 or something silly like that.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
Hi guys,
last saturday I played here in Vancouver in a GP trial (providence).
I was debating what to play, then I decided to play the list that chinese girl took to Edison (other
than the filter lands, obviously).
Anyway, I made top 8, the deck performed amazingly well. It was clearly awesome.
round 1 vs merfolks:
I heard people saying that merfolks is one of the best deck in legacy....
..well...not against this deck...
game 1...he was playing his dudes..I was just burning them, fire them, waste them, lavamancer them..you name it..easy win
game 2...I sb in 2 firespout...it was a massacre..2-0
round 2 vs elves:
game 1: I dug like hell...almost nothing..he managed to resolve NO for progenitus..i scooped;
game 2: as it supposed to go..no chance for him 1-1;
game 3: same as game 1..1-2;
Round 3 vs ANT
game 1..I wasted 3 of his lands in a row in the first 3 turns..he didnt draw lands for other 4 turns..when he went off he tried to resolve infernal tutor (with LED onthe stack..and 5 mana left) he got spell snare he scooped;
game 2: turn 2 he tried to go off, I FOW his mana accel, turn 4 clique I made him put on the bottom 'silence' he drew burning wish, he had only one land (I wasted another one) he scooped..2-0
Round 4 vs Affinity:
here in my sb I had 2 null rod and 2 hurkyl's recall (recall is no longer in sb although it worked just fine)
game 1: he went off turn 2..no chance for me 0-1
game 2: turn 3 null rod for me after FOW his dudes..he scooped...he mull to 5 though..1-1
game 3: turn 2 null rod..he smiled at me..and he scooped..2-1
Round 5 vs zoo..friend of mine..we draw.no matter what both in top8;3-1-1
top8:me vs zoo (my friend again)
game 1: I got mana screw..2 lands for like 7-8 turns (1 wasteland, 1 trop) my hand was basically red
game 2: I got mana screw again 2 lands for 5 turns, the 3rd land I hit was a wasteland (1 already in play), no double U, no fetch..shit happens
0-2 out of tournament..my friend ended up winning the tournament in the final against Junk.
my sb for the tournament was:
2 krosan grip
2 null rod
2 hurkyl's recall
1 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 pyroblast
1 REB
2 firespout
3 spell pierce
I think I made the mistake about recall...not needed..1 mind harness and 1 drake were more useful against KOTR in my opinion.
I am thinking to put 1 grudge in sb and cut 1 fire/ice for 1 more clique. what do you guys think?
Thanks
And they lose a land each time...seems good.
Hi to to all in this thread, finally i played the deck for the first time last weekend in a small tourney to get a feeling for it :
I fallowed chinEsE girl advices and played his main with cutting 1 fire/ice for the 3ed clique
and his SB :
3 Spell Pierce
2 REB
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
First Round 1 : Dredge : 2:0
Yeah winning game 1 against dredge, that was fun, but thats the reason why i don't play dredge it isn't steady.
2. Round : Ubw Dreadnought : 2:0
Clique wins game 1 and game 2 with the help of a reb
3. Round : MUD 2:0
Not much to say here, game 1 clique and Jace ; game 2 Null Rod
4. Round Canadian : 0:2
Both games his Nimble Mongoose won him the game.
Game 1 I resolved a clique and saw 3 spell snare and thought ok my tarmos won't resolve any time soon. I got him down to 6 but then i'am out of stuff, his first Mongoose met a EE, but the second went all the way
Game 2 : I tried a jace with force backup and 1 mana open, but he had the reb, and my force met his second reb. I snare his goyfs he mine, and finally he resolves a mongoose and my loam came to late...
My SB plan was out 4 Bolts 2 Fire and ice : IN 1 crypt, 1 relic, 1 loam, 1 Mind harness, 2 Reb
So at first thank you guys for developing this deck it was fun to play, and finally luck was on my side i opened my booster and a foil Sword of Feast and Famine was in there - nice ;-)
But one question to the experienced players with this deck, how to play the canadian matchup and was my boarding plan ok ?
So its been a while since I posted in here, the reason being I've switched back to Straight OG Canadian Thresh. Its more punishing to a bad player, and more rewarding to something who knows how to play it.
Also note on mongoose, he always gets there.
I played the Eric English list in a small local tournament tonight. Altered the sideboard a little, but the main deck was mostly the same. Finished 3-1 and in 3rd place.
Round 1: affinity with masters but no tezz.
Game1: I bolt an early thopter with a plating, but he swings with double plating on a signal pest on turn 3 and I don't have the removal.
Game2: he keeps a slow hand and I waste his first two land and then lavamancer and collar take over the game. Etched champion came out, but with a needle on plating he wasn't a big threat. Clique swung 7 times.
Game3: i keep a hand of 2 ancient grudge, 2 land, force, force, brainstorm. He drew 8 or 9 straight land off the top and was never really in it.
Round 2: cephalid breakfast.
Game1: I burn an en-kor with fire/ice, but he has the force for my bolt on the 2nd en-kor. He mills his deck and dread return is 2nd card from the bottom. He has out en-kor, illusionist and 2 narcos (one must have been stuck in his hand) so he can only therapy once (for force) and I stifle the trigger on karmic guide when he dread returns it. 2/2 flyer doesn't get there with only 1 draw step left.
Game2: totally punt this game by not wasting a tropical island. He tutors for dryad arbor and casts natural order for progenitus. I only had 3 land out and he had 5+, so I felt it was better to keep the waste for mana...it occured to me that a second green would make NO mana, but i didnt think breakfast ran the sideboard NO plan....whoops.
Game3: I stick an early lavamancer and sit on multiple bolts and fire/ice for his guys. He cant get the combo to stick or the double green for NO. Lavamancer pokes him to death after i have a hand of counters, burn and llawan for progenitus.
Round3: junk
Game1: I get greedy and keep a 1 land hand with stifle, bolt, bs and snare. He plays scrubland, mox diamond, top. Next turn hymn me and continue to bash me with goyfs. Not close.
Game2: he plays out 2 bobs and manages to flip a bunch of 3 drops in a row (deed, vindicate, knight). Between bobs and fetches, he deals himself enough that i sit back and play defense until he is at 2 and dies to bolt.
Game3: I drop 2 goyfs, he drops goyf and knight. Then he plays deed and blows up the board other than his 6/6 knight. He has a maelstrom pulse but it doesn't matter since i can't draw mind harness or sower and did to knight.
This is the second week in a row that I drop a match to junk in 3 games. I'm not sure how to get an edge here as this just seems like a tough matchup.
Round 4: Merfolk
Game 1: lavamancer and collar come online early and that is all she wrote.
Game 2: he keeps a greedy hand with mutavault with vial. I keep a hand with lavamancer, bolt, firespout, fire/ice. I explosives away 2 vials when he is on one land and eventually llawan comes down for the scoop.
The deck is powerful and fun to play. Affinity game 1 is rough is they have any decent kind of hand, but plenty of sideboard options to make games 2 and 3 better. Merfolk is a matchup I would play every round if i could and the breakfast matchup seems good, lots of cards to keeo them off their combo cards. Junk on the other hand seems pretty rough and I'm not sure how best to improve the matchup. Cheers to Eric English for the list, it's definitely fun.
Played today a small tournament with 5 rounds of swiss and top8.. Swiss went 3-1-1 (ID to make the cut). Winning UW "cawblade" Tempo, UWb WishLandstill, UW ThopterControl and Losing to zenith bant. At top8 lost to that UW Thopter with baddraws and opponent had CBalance out and revealed twice blindfolded (5CMC for FoW and 4CMC to Jace..bah) Allthough I fell that deck is really good, I have had real big troubles against bant. If I don't counter or burn his guys fast or counter NO, we can't do nothing.
Have people had trouble against Zenith bant with NOProgenitus? I think that Hibernation is our only option with these colors. If we add like 1 Tundra we could get sb option like Tariff which is also an answer to Emrakul.. Tell me your thoughts!
Hey guys, I've been playing this archetype for the past few weeks now and I'm looking to take this to a respectable finish in the West Coast since CBTop is not viable for now.
I went 2 - 3 today, punting really hard on matchups that I could have and should have won.
Round 1 (Dredge)
Game 1: I get an early goyf out with an EE at 0 and a Basilisk Collar but my opponent dredges into Flame-Kin Zealot and has just enough damage to push through for lethal.
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Firespout
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Relic of Progenitus
-4 Stifle
-2 Vendilion Clique
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Game 2: My opponent mulls and keeps a questionable hand while I'm rocking steady with tempo plays and eventually stablilize with a goyf + counter and burn spells in hand.
Game 3: Opponent mulls down to 5 cards and has a turn 1 Tireless Tribe that I can't answer seeing as how I don't have a Force in hand. I play an early Lavamancer in which I am forced to shoot himself a few turns later because his graveyard had 2 bridges. Eventually we're in a situation where my opponent has zero lands and tireless tribe in play with a bunch of dredgers and Ichorid in the grave. I topdeck into a Jace and decide to bounce his Tireless Tribe. This was a huge mistake on my end when I should have just brainstormed and hoped to dig for a Trinket Mage or a hate piece. This play eventually ends up costing me the game as I draw into dead cards and my opponent proceeds to beat me down with zombie tokens.
1 - 2
Round 2 (Infect - Draft deck)
I don't think I need to go into detail here. His cards weren't even sleeved.
2 - 0
Round 3 (Painter Grindstone)
Game 1: On the early game we play a few turns of land go while I blow up two of his Goblin Welders. He eventually stablilizes his grindstones and catches me off guard with a Painter's Servant when I'm tapped out. He goes off with grindstone the next turn.
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Pithing Needle
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Basilisk Collar
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Game 2: We played a few turns of land-go while I dropped a Grim Lavamancer and Goyf with mana up. I made a huge mistake this game in deciding to take out Basilisk Collar against him because I already knew he had the Show and Tell / Emrakul plan sideboarded in. So when I force of willed (pitching Trinket Mage) Show and Tell while he countered back, I slapped myself mentally and made a note to never take out collar against Emrakul decks again.
0 - 2
Round 4 (Imperial Painter)
Game 1: He played a bunch of cantrips and attempted to stick a Goblin Welder & Painter's Servant which all met burn spells fairly quickly. I eventually stabilized with Goyf, a Basilisk Collar and a Jace TMS. The latter providing the bounce spells to push through enough damage with goyf.
+3 Spell Pierce
+1 Pithing Needle
-4 Stifle
Game 2: He played a bunch of fetches with a bunch of cantrips and kept digging for stuff while I pounced him with wastelands, counters and Goyf.
2 - 0
Round 5: (Merfolk with Stoneforge Mystic)
Game 1: 2 Grim Lavamancers go to work this game and proceed to blow him out while I eventually take the game with an unanswered Goyf.
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Firespout
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle
-4 Stifle
-2 Jace, TMS
-2 Ponder
-1 Vendilion Clique
Game 2:We both mull down to six. I punt very badly in this matchup because I stabilized with Grim Lavamancer while he had 2 Aether Vials out. My opponent had a 2/2 Coralhelm Commander out and I shoot it down with Lavamancer but he vials in Kira and we're both under the impression that Lavamancer's ability fizzles as a result when this is not the case at all. I was actually sitting on firespout but I was being greedy with Grim Lavamancer. These mishaps end up costing me the game as he pumps up Coralhelm Commander to a 4/4 and proceeds to dwindle me down to zero.
Game 3: I keep a pretty questionable hand with no Grim Lavamancer or much backup. We play a long game of attrition until I get Basilisk Collar, Trinket Mage and a Vendilion Clique on my side while he has a Stoneforge Mystic, two Silvergill Adepts, and a Mutavault. I cast a Goyf and my opponent casts a Lord of Atlantis during his turn with 2 colorless up. I have 2 Volcanic Islands open with a Fire // Ice in hand. I was definitely not thinking straight because for some reason I decide to tap out and cast Fire on his turn. He dazes me and has me for lethal the turn after.
1 - 2
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All in all, today was a learning experience and I felt really shitty after my last round seeing as how I practically died to daze. Still, this is a very powerful deck and today was a clear example of the pilot letting the deck down. I am going to learn from these mistakes and hopefully, this deck will teach me to become a better tempo player in the near future.
Guess it's time to return to the thread and see what's going on. I'm glad to see that the majority or people are having success with the deck, it feels good to see others also having success with the deck. I'll try to adders some of the questions asking in the last week or two.
About the junk matchup, it's something that I've tried to solve, but the more I look at it or play against the deck, it just seems that it's just a rough matchup. It sucks that junk is such a forgiving deck, since they van net topdeck knight against us and get ahead all of the sudden without much
planning. In my opinion though, junk is not a large enough portion of the metagame to worry about it so actively. Especially with the rise of combo over the past couple of weeks, junk has gotten worse, which in turn helps to make our deck better. If you want to tailor your sideboard tonbeating junk,
put in more control magic effects. I know my friend personally boards 4 such effects (2 gilded drakes and 2 mind harness) but I've been ok so far with boarding a 1-1 split.
The other thing I wanted to ask everyone who has played the deck is what your opinion of trinket mage is. One of my friends who travels with me and plays NLT doesn't like trinket mage at all, and has since taken the package out and put in some spell pierces. He's also put the factory and crucible plan back in, but I've fond that to be slow and ineffective in the current metagame, but he just really like factory. I just want to hear some other opinions from people about whether they liked playing with trinket mage or not. Personally, I love the flexibility it gives you, as well as giving you maindeck outs to random problem permanents (it kind of sucks that you can't get to 4 counters to deal with planeswalkers and humility or moat, but you can still beat them with those permanents in play). For me, the ability to get collar and quickly put away aggro matchups is a great effects that ugr doesn't usually get. The fact that mage also means you're effectively running extra copies of graveyard hate is a plus with all of the graveyard based decks loping up, especially dredge.
Also, for anybody going to SCG Boston, I'll be there so if you want to feel free to track me down and ask me anything about the deck, I'd be more than happy to help. Plus if you stick around you'll get me in the top 8, and that's a guarantee.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
I tested Trinket Mage in the build and wasn't too impressed. I think about it this way - he costs 3 mana! Jace costs 4...for one more you get the planeswalker who swings games on his own.
I always found myself at a loss for mana when I play the Mage. I have to wait until next turn and broadcast exactly what I'm going to play next, whether it be a collar or Explosives. And he acts like a really expensive E-Tutor that fogs. It'd be great to play E-Tutor, but that's stretching the mana base a little, I think. It doesn't feel like a good tempo play at all.
I wonder if it may be better to run Pierces maindeck and keep Mage in the board if necessary to grab one-ofs? Pierce is so good right now. It helps vs. Hymn and more importantly GSZ. I'm having trouble fighting the attrition battle against Bant decks w/ GSZ right now, and in a vacuum I'm in a toss-up between this build and Bant. I love the bolts but I feel the deck needs to be more tempo and less Trinket Mage.
Take my opinion for what it's worth... however I am really passionate about this deck and feel like this is the one to bring to the Grand Prix.
A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"
I played this list again in our weekly local last night - although I made a couple changes to the main and sideboard.
I upped the Vendilion Clique count to 3 and dropped a Fire//Ice as has been previously discussed in this thread. I also added maindeck Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus to give the Trinket Mage package a little more utility. To make room, I think I dropped a Jace and a Spell Snare (running 1 and 2 of each, respectively).
Sideboard was:
1 K Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 REB
2 Firespout
2 Spell Pierce
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Llawan
2 Submerge
1 Mind Harness
1 Sower of Temptation
The local meta usually has multiple affinity and merfolk decks, so there is some extra hate for those decks.
Round 1: Excaliber (2-1)
Game 1: I draw a Wasteland heavy grip and we have 1 or 2 lands each on turn 6. Unfortunately he gets a clique with a jitte online and I can't find anymore gas.
Game 2: I run out a lavamancer and he tries to fetch a dryad arbor to block when I swing and his land gets bolted. Same thing happens next turn and I have a lavamancer and 3 land while he is stuck on 1 land. I believe Clique comes down and I get there attacking for 4 a turn.
Game 3: He drops 2 goyfs pretty early. I have lavamancer who has a pithing needle on him. I trinket mage for EE@2 and trade the EE for 2 goyfs and a SSS. Eventually I grudge the needle and a SoFaI and start beating with a Clique wearing a Collar. He clears my creatures and we play draw go looking for a threat. I draw my 1 of sower and hold on to it. He draws and plays his sower. I take his flyer with mine and they get there.
Round 2: Pyromancer's Ascension (2-0)
Game 1: He mentions something about playing combo and leads with Island, Ponder. I put him on some kind of storm and leave open stifle and spell snare. He cantrips some more and eventually I clique him, sending an ascension to the bottom. I spell snare another ascension and trinket mage for my main deck relic of progenitus. He intuitions for the last 3 ascensions, but can't get it into play through my counters. He scoops when 4 ascensions are in the gy and I have a large goyf.
Game 2: I keep a hand of spell snare, spell pierce, k grip and REB. I get relic online again and start attacking with a goyf. I made a minor misplay when I let him resolve a ascension, get a counter with a second ponder and then try to cast a second preordain. I pop relic in response, forgetting that the counter still goes on the ascension since the preordain was in the gy when the second was cast. It wouldn't have been a huge deal since I had 2 goyfs in play, but now both were 1/2s since the relic removed everything except the preordain. He started to do things with ascension, but luckily he was on 4 and when he fetched, I had a bolt to kill him.
Round 3: Affinity (2-1)
Game 1: Kept a 6 card hand on the draw with bolt, Fire//Ice and land. Not much going on, but I didn't want to go to 5. He plays ornithopter, memnite, signal pest on turn 1. He plays plating on turn 2 and swings for 3 with his robots. I bolt the ornithopter and the Fire the pest and memnite the next turn when he tries to equip the plating. I pithing needle the plating and waste his blue source so he can't cast Masters. Clique swings 7 times.
Game 2: I keep a hand full of great sideboard cards, unfortunately he has a hand with 2 plating and I get too low before I remove his threats. I take a Galvanic blast in the face. 4 damage lightning bolts are good.
Game 3: Both ancient grudges show up and I get to REB a Master. This seems like a pretty good matchup after boarding as long as they don't have the nut-double plating-draw
There is only 1 other 3-0 player running storm (Lax ANT with grim tutors I believe) so we draw and split the credit for 1st and 2nd place.
I'm so-so on the trinket mage package, sometimes it's great (grabbing relic in the pyro ascension match) and sometimes it's just a little slow. Letting them know what you're grabbing is definitely a drawback. I do like having the 4 targets maindeck since you're less likely to run out of things to grab (which definitely happened when I was just running Collar/EE). Relic can usually cycle (and if you can't cycle it it's because you have goyf and/or lavamancer and you're probably ahead anyway) and pithing needle almost always has a target to name. I do worry about it taking up too much room in the maindeck and not just playing stronger cards (e.g. Jace). I'm probably going to run this at some GP Trials coming up (I love the merfolk matchup and I just need to dodge Junk, which I am 0-3 against) although I have NOpro as a backup plan.
The plan for Junk is currently Mind Harness (and Sower), Submerges and Relic, but I'm open to more suggestions if anyone has any.
I'm surprised you ran it last night considering that Junk shows up every week (except this week). Also surprised you didn't hit any of the 4 merfolk players.
Hope to see you there next week
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