Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

[Gheizen64]

It wasn't worth answering it in the first place, let it go.

[Zach Tartell]

Maybe all that noise was not intended as a factual statement.

[Lemnear]

Probably because s/he's a new member to the forum and s/he wasn't ready for the internet smackdown that was to be.

I have noticed that a lot of posts defending the reserve list are coming from newly registered members. It's almost as if they have been lurking around the shadows, clutching their precious collections, and then all of this reserve list debate comes about and suddenly they appear to praise Hasbro and their integrity. Take your unused cards back to wherever you dwell and let the rest of us play Legacy.

PS: This post was written whilst wearing a $12,000 suit, not including the shoes because I'm not wearing them. Serio.

... maybe some people don't need hundreds of posts "experience" to identify bullshit xp

there's a topic on the board that others view TheSource as a place for shitposts .... maybe you shouldn't give so much credit for the postcount

[Bardo]

1) The reprint list should stand. I know this is unpopular but WotC promised and they should keep their promise. They have a legal obligation. WotC should NOT be making money off collectors and long time players. All players for the most part are collectors. If you play and don't collect, you can just proxy all your cards.

This is one of those claims I feel obliged to debunk whenever I see it. WotC has no legal obligation to maintain the Reserve List. There is no breach of contract because there is no contract.* They made a promise a long time ago, but breaking a promise isn’t illegal. Besides that, corporations breach contracts every day knowing the consequences. It’s not the end of the world.

At worst, and this would be a difficult and expensive to get into a courtroom, you could accuse WotC of fraud. But Hasbro has deep pockets, a huge phalanx of lawyers, and unless it was a class action, you’d get crushed. It would be amusing though.

It’s like a politician who goes back on a campaign promise. You don’t get to sue them and say “I would have voted for the other guy” or “You owe me that recreation center.” You got suckered, sure, and you have the right to vote for someone else next time, but you’re not entitled to anything. Same thing goes for the Reserve List. Their real liability there would be consumer trust and confidence. That’s what’s keeping it in place, not the law or a contract.

* To clarify, all contracts are promises, but few promises are contracts. (As that old saying goes: "All blueberries are blue berries, but not all blue berries are blueberries.")

[Mr.C]

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

Man, you had me up till the 328i. If I was ballin' out of control like you, I'd at least drive a Maserati, or if I have to go BMW, an M5.

I have everything that's Legacy-legal, or nearly so. I just don't feel that cards should cost more than $50 or so, unless they are collectibles like Juzam and Beta Moxen and shit like that. Likewise, I hate mythic rares too.

But hey, that's just me, right? Some poor Brazilian guy. Or maybe not ;)

[keys]

Bardo, I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure Wizards' "promise" with regard to the reserved list is more of a warranty than a contract. The sale is the contract.

[SMR0079]

From what I heard from GP Dallas is prices are already plateauing, and unless you need the card for an event, you generally can buy the cards at offical buy prices from players and back pack dealers.

The buy prices listed on SCG and other large vendors are seldom ever paid out becasue they are for MINT cards - good luck with finding very many even NM Legacy staples, most are in the EX range. There is a significant difference between what is listed as the offical buy price and what they actually offer. The actuall price for most slighlty played cards is fairly close to what many of you have come to accept as a reasonable cost.

[Malchar]

Sorry if this has been covered already. Here are two main problems related to the rising prices of cards. There is increased incentive to make fake cards. I'm confident that modern cards are quite hard to counterfeit, but I'm not so sure about older cards. I'm not aware of any large scale problems, but I think that eventually someone might figure out how to make high quality fakes, and it could destroy the market or at least make someone really rich.

Secondly, staple magic cards are basically $50 bills now. Playing in a tournament is akin to taking a big pile of $50 bills and slapping them on the table across from someone that you might not know very well. We're reaching a point where it might be uncomfortable to play against an opponent in a high-stakes tournament where both people effectively have large amounts of money on them. I've heard many stories of people having their stuff stolen, and the risk of losing everything will eventually outweigh the benefit from playing with the cards. I'm sure that most people have a pretty good community that they play with, but this could be another barrier for new players to overcome.

[dragonwisdom]

Another way WotC could go is to strengthen mono colored decks. For example, they could print a new goblin that would put goblins back in teir one. They could promote legacy soldiers etc...

They must reprint Force, Goyf and Wasteland. I still think distributing them in packs with a purple symbol, making them illegal in standard is the way to go.

[TUMBLES]

Pfft, they should just support Legacy and Limited, drop those terrible formats Ext and Standard, and do some restructuring to profit heavily from it.

Also, $1500 average deck costs is wrong. If you're running blue, you will probably hit slightly over $1k - but decks like Goblins and Merfolk are $500 or so even if you don't own a single card. Elves and Affinity are pretty cheap also. Combo is pretty inexpensive as well, as is Zoo.

I do not see a real problem - you do not have to shell out huge $$ to play competitive decks in Legacy. There are expensive options, but even things like 4x Fire & Lightning burn is a playable choice.

[cosme]

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

well now I'm really going to talk shit back at you

a) Donations to charity are unethical if you ever take a break of making so much money I recommend that you read Kant if you disagree.

b) i have done much with my life what have you? (no having lots of money is not making something of your life)

Those of you bashing the reserve list and claiming that Legacy will die need to take a moment to think: who the fuck do you think you are? Do you honesty think your complaining will affect Wizards, Hasbro, and all of their stockholders??

I am a customer that's what I fucking am.

And I while I think that the prices are insane I am happy to test a deck full of proxy until I have enough money to buy it. what I am not happy with is that the prices are constantly coming up and eventually the stocks will end.

And no I don't own any dual nor FoW nor Wasteland so you can all say I'm whining about it

Next step FtV lands

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Pfft, they should just support Legacy and Limited, drop those terrible formats Ext and Standard, and do some restructuring to profit heavily from it.

Also, $1500 average deck costs is wrong. If you're running blue, you will probably hit slightly over $1k - but decks like Goblins and Merfolk are $500 or so even if you don't own a single card. Elves and Affinity are pretty cheap also. Combo is pretty inexpensive as well, as is Zoo.

I do not see a real problem - you do not have to shell out huge $$ to play competitive decks in Legacy. There are expensive options, but even things like 4x Fire & Lightning burn is a playable choice.

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

[lorddotm]

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

I only paid 200 for it. Boss status.

[Koby]

I only paid 200 for it. Boss status.

Still stealing candies from babies, eh Liam? You have to factor in the foil espanolio cartes

[Bardo]

Bardo, I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure Wizards' "promise" with regard to the reserved list is more of a warranty than a contract. The sale is the contract.

I'm not an lawyer either (though I write and negotiate contracts for a living), but the Reserved List isn't a warranty. I tried finding WotC's MTG paper-based product warranties but it's kind of a pain to find them on the internet.

Their online product T&Cs are here:
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answ...rms-of-service

And I bet they're more or less similar to their paper products.

There's this:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...z17sJuD2NMS5qA

But that's to sell their stuff.

Regardless though, if you found their product warranties, it will mostly disclaim all warranties to the bare minimum applicable by law (minimally, and I'm just guessing here, the technical specifications for their product, mingled with some state's version of the uniform commercial code -- probably Washington (because of WotC) or Rhode Island (because of Hasbro)). http://www.clue.com/legal/hasbro/appeal.htm

What this means, practically, is that if you received a pack of their paper product and there was some manufacturing flaw, like the cards were all fucked up (inking, cutting, you open a booster of Future Sight and there are Redemption cards inside, etc.), the manufacturer (WotC / Hasbro) would replace your non-conforming product at no cost to you. Of course, you wouldn't do that, because those cards would be especially collectible and valuable because of their rarity (misprints / miscuts), but they'd replace them for you if you wanted them too.

Randomly, that's some money there:
http://contracts.corporate.findlaw.c...ment/1988.html

($500K / year in salary + $250K for signing + $250K (minimum) in bonuses + stock, benefits, and a bunch of other stuff)

[lorddotm]

Still stealing candies from babies, eh Liam? You have to factor in the foil espanolio cartes

Well, now the deck is worth a lot more than 890.

The original didn't have foils in it, that one I got for 200. Winning tournaments with Merfolk to fuel the combo addiction.

[TUMBLES]

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

I just recently bought complete TES for $550, curious as to where are you getting these prices?

Merfolk I calc'd out recently as well, would cost me ~380 only owning FOWs already; though Wasteland was cheaper even a few weeks ago. Are you just going by SCG or something? They all seem high to me. Plus, even with those #s, seems odd to list a bunch of decks that are significantly below $1500 even at what seem to be high prices and then say $1500 average sounds right.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Already owning a set of Force of Wills tends to reduce the cost of a deck significantly.

And yes, lowest SCG prices, which is about what someone who's just getting into the format can expect to spend (keep in mind that in several cases, those are prices on cards that SCG is sold out of. It's possible to get a better deal through trading or having connections, but the former is very time-consuming and the latter is largely luck-based.

And those are the cheapest decks. Even that Zoo list runs less duals and Knights than normal, and most lists also run Karakas and or Maze of Ith.

For comparison, Ben Weinburg's Counter-top list costs $1,819.45

The Anwar-Hatfields build of Permanent Waves costs $1713.04

Alexander Kwan's Imperial Painter list costs $1383.33.

Dan Signorini's Team America costs a whopping $2024.89.

Even if we lowball the Tezzeret-Affinity list Blake McCracken played at $200 for the playset of Tezzerets + other junks, that's still an average deck cost of $1,387.10 for the past seven SCG Open winners. Drop the lowest and highest outliers and it's $1,496.96. If describing Legacy as having $1,500 average deck costs is an exaggeration, it's not much of one, at least if we're talking about what's viable in a large tournament.

[JACO]

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

Are you using StarCity's prices for those numbers, or what exactly? I'm updating a spreadsheet now that I used to use to track deck costs in paper and MTGO, and I'll try to put it up online in the next couple of days when I'm done. I'm using street prices for cards, as I strongly encourage people to shop around for competitive prices and not use one big vendor like SCG and wildy overpay. Some numbers I've calculated so far (examples using recent SCG and large global tournament T8'ing decks):
ANT (UB no Grim Tutor) - 851.05 (698.30 MTGO)
ANT (UB with Grim Tutor) - 1169.05 (705.55 MTGO)
Cephalid Breakfast - 1079.75 (755.54 MTGO)
CounterTop Thopters (Guibault) - 1050.73 (946.08 MTGO)
CounterTop UWRG (Wienburg) - 1519.83 (1128.04 MTGO)
Dredge (LED-less) - 156.85 (146.17 MTGO)
Goblins (Mono R) - 626.32 (269.66 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Goblins (RB) - 742.80 (287.61 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Merfolk (Mono U Bertoncini) - 754.63 (777.46 MTGO)
Naya Zoo - 822.53 (425.39 MTGO)
Reanimator (LDV) - 1077.04 (972.66 MTGO)
Team America (Confidant) - 1928.00 (1381.35 MTGO)
Team America (Tombstalker) - 1652.26 (1185.86 MTGO)
TES - 679.25 (665.88 MTGO)

Decks are really not that expensive when compared to the costs of playing Standard, and Legacy deck costs aren't really close to an average of $1500 for the most commonly played decks. Sure Blue decks are more expensive in Legacy, just like they have been in nearly every constructed Magic format. That's nothing new.

If you're looking for equality for the masses for everyone, you should be looking at a different game. Magic has always been a collectible card game, and one where the cost to play constructed formats is high. Standard, Extended, Legacy, and Vintage will never be the "everyman's" format. If you are looking for a cheap format to play EDH and draft fit the bill, and that's why so many players gravitate towards those formats.

[Lemnear]

A list with FoW, 9 Blue duals, 10 fetches and 2 wallet sculptor is 1.8k and you try to tell us the average cost of a legacy Deck is 1.5k?

Then the painter and high tide List ... It isn't the deck that's expensive, it's the playset of candelabras and ImperialR.! I mean you can replace candelabra with cloud of fairies or mind over matter without making the deck much worse but paying 1.1k more for a little better effect should not be the base of discussion.

Maybe I throw a Mono Black List with sinkholes, juzams, Xiahou Duns and chains of Mephistopheles together (maybe win a 12-people-tourney before discussion, for legitim. lol) to discuss average legacy deck prices next time. Feel free to join me with a mono white Control list containing sets of moat, tabernacle, baneslayer and karakas'

(old, formaly cheap but now overhyped and ridiculous expensive cards are bad examples for price discussion. We are Not longer talking about important staples like Force of will but shit; this is wrong)