Now Dragonstompy deck is on crossroad again. a) big fatties like lord of shatterskull pass/motlensteel hellkite/rpd alongside with seething song or b) little critters revoker/priest/kargan with lot of equips. Not sure if trinisphere is right in a) build, but seriously for b), why would you even play priest if its not for trinisphere?
Or go for turn 1 Tomb, Mox, Song, Revoker on their Hierarch/Vial, Trinisphere.Originally Posted by Yuri8
Do not limit yourself with a)s and b)s.
Squeeze small threat before lockpiece - that's how it should work.
On the other hand, what's wrong with squeezing small threat before bigger threat?
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
eq.firemind: Well, I didnt said anything about not including phyrexian revoker. It not like Im trying to create two decklists and force everybody to chose one, but you can seperate versions of deck into some categories. As most defining factor i find seething song/priest. Seething song is instant which enables higher curve, so you can run about 7-10 4cc creatures(these creatures dont need equip to be effective, so 2-3 is right i think). On the other we have creature(talking about priest) that doenst give any extra mana, but let us play another 3 cmc spell (hello trinisphere) for free, which means lower curve ( 3 mana is pointless when your hand is infested with lords and rpd). Maybe its just my way of thinking, but I really see only roads on crossroad.
I cant see any "bigger" threat, which can come out of priest. Gathan? In early turns just 3/3 body. Sword? Even if you equip priest with SoBaM you will get only 4/3, that dies to every removal.
I don't think Red Priesty helps matters any. He doesn't actually ramp mana, just color fixes, and he's just a 2/1. He's synergystic, but he doesn't really -do- much for the price of a card in a deck where you don't have any card advantage and have to win the game with what you have. Your cards need to DO things. They need to win games.
However, Moltensteel Dragon is pretty sexy, as might be Phyrexian Metamorph.
Really, the awesome thing about the Priest is that he's essentially free and he fixes our mana. It's not hard for Dragon Stompy to pump out five mana on any given turn. It is hard, however, for Dragon Stompy to pump out two red mana every turn. The Priest fixes that issue. Really, he's a replacement for Seething Song.
EDIT: Ah, poo. I hate it when people post when I'm still typing. Anyhoo, any ideas for a new list with Moltensteel, Taco?
FWIW, I'm working on a list of this deck packing Mox Opal and a very underutilized card from Ice Age. And I'm pretty convinced it's going to be the right way to go once I get there with it. Not that it'll be necessarily amazing in Legacy, but better.
But ideas? Yes. Not necessarily good ones. But ideas nonetheless.
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
Here's my thing about Moltensteel. You don't want to see more than one. Because very often, for speed reasons, you're going to want to pay that four life for it, and you've already got Tomb bonking you in the head repeatedly as it is. The neat thing about Moltensteel is that he can do the Rakdos thing and sometimes just win in one or two swings.
Taco, Mox Opal is infinitely infinitely better than Chrome Mox. I would be excited to see if Dragon Stompy could utilize it with changes to its maindeck. I've always felt that DStompy is one of the more explosive and strongest Stompy deck out there (still is), but the fact that it cannot maintain locks forces it to win on strong hands, and be weaker to average hands.
If you're interested in an artifact-based Dstompy list, I had one that I brewed up a few months back and I'll be interested to share it with you if you're interested to get some ideas via PM. It's most definitely not optimized because everytime I look at it, I just revert back to Steel Stompy (since it's primarily artifact-based), but the list I had definitely keeps the more 'explosive-bombiness" of Dstompy v.s. Steel Stompy's less bomby approach to winning games.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
I'd be interested to see, always.
What I'm attempting to achieve is something with the "Oops, I win" factor of Dragon Stompy, yet more in an artifact shell. I'd still be abusing the 8 Moons, of course, as it's my favorite part of the deck, but beyond that? It's somewhat of a complete overhaul. The point I keep getting stuck on is whether or not to include the Forgemaster/Greaves/Blightsteel package, try a Ravager/Slag Fiend package, or stick with the Hellbent crew.
What Ice Age tech are you talking about Taco?.
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it.” —Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
Jeweled Amulet. Balls sexy card, though it's weak on turn one. I love it with Mox Opal. They work fantastic together.
I love the old school'ness (is that a word?) of it, but is that kind of mana fixing neccesary?.
If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it.” —Volrath
Founding father of Team Moosebite, the team that really bites.
Jeweled Amulet
card-threading this because I don't know wtf this card does lol :P
EDIT: Oh god O_O
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Possibly. I'm only running two. I got the idea from a brief span of running it in Goblins (The logic being that the third best turn one play behind Vial and Lackey was to ramp up for a turn two Warchief. Worked fair.) and then tried it in Affinity, and am still running a pair there. And it does more than mana fix. It actually ramps on mana light hands, and it speeds up the development of Metalcraft. It also helps you fix those City of Traitors hands that start explosive but run into problems after you have to sacrifice the City.
I struggle to defend its inclusion, because it isn't really easy to quantify in terms of explosive plays, but it does always seem to give you the right mana at the right time in the midgame to keep your assault up. Plus if you don't spend the full mana using a Grim Monolith (Which replaces Song in my Opal version), it lets you in effect reduce the cost of untapping and re-using it. It also both helps you ramp into Forgemaster and activate Forgemaster, assuming I run it.
The more I play with the card, the more I think it has a ton of potential in the upcoming artifact-based Legacy metagame.
Would you like to share your mox opal list? Every time I try to make list with them it tend to be more like mud than dragonstompy.
I think running Opal would necessitate the Ravager/Slag package as that's about as explosive as you can get. Much easier to get that going first turn than getting five mana and three artifacts plus Lightning Greaves on Turn 1 or 2.
Taco, the color-fixing card you should be looking at is Mox Diamond. It involves more tweaks to the current list, but I'll share my list that was a few months old. Granted that we get the new artifact dragon and Phyrexian Metamorph, the artifact count can be increased without sacrificing firepower.
This was my list a few months back, when I was experimenting with Stompy builds moving away from the terrible Chrome Mox (the only thing this stupid card ever do is help you get hellbent or tear your hair out because you run too many artifacts).
Lands: 19 (it's land-heavy but think of Wasteland as tempo card taking a land drop)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Mountains
Accelerants: 13
4 SSG
3 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond (Jeweled Amulet if you prefer that, but I rather have mana ACCELERATION)
3 Grim Monolith
Creatures: 17
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Etched Champion
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine/Steel Hellkite (has to be 6cmc or less)
Others: 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Resistors: 10 (13 if you count Magus)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
Notes: The most important part to make Opal work (and this is from constant testing in Steel Stompy) is to have enough turn 1 2cmc plays that support a turn 2 Metalcraft. The biggest drawback to Opal for Dragonstompy is not being able to do anything on turn 1 i.e. it's a turn 2 accelerant, not a turn 1 accelerant in 90% of the situation. It is the main reason I built the list but scrapped it because Dragon Stompy fundamentally plays very different from other Stompy variants i.e. it's a throw everything out and hope your opponent does to moon approach.
Regardless, the most important thing to note that although Opal doesn't accelerate turn 1, it does fix colors and accelerate on turn 2 if you can support metalcraft by turn 2. From testings with Steel Stompy, to achieve this, you need a high 2cmc count on turn 1, that way you can easily play another artifact turn 2 and turn on Opal.
The list that I built doesn't play the Hellbent package: pit-dragon/Raiders. I opted for Golems pairing up with Wastelands. In this list, you can easily cast a turn 1 Golem (hands with SSG/Diamond + Tomb + Monolith, it's not very frequent but no other deck is capable of doing this except meandeck mud). Etched Champion is a great card on the defensive, but could go in on the offensive once you get a Jitte. If you prefer less disruption, I'll move 3spheres to the SB and play 3 Platings instead, which increases the overall kill-speed of the deck.
The list is not optimized, but has a few benefits over the traditional list:
- It keeps as explosive starts as the original list, together with Moon effects that go online turn 1.
- Not a ton of card-disadvantage: Chrome Mox is just a terrible card in Stompy (in my honest opinion, unless you're opting the hellbent route, which has its own drawbacks i.e. lose to opponents answering Chalice/Moon/3sphere and then plowing your lone threat because you've dumped your hand)
- Maintain locks better than the regular list (you have same Moons, but this time Golems pairing up with Trinsiphere + Wasteland)
Drawbacks of the list is:
- Slower killing power, but compromised with more consistent casting of creatures, and not suffering from the card-disadvantage from the hellbent approach allows you to keep the pressure up with more spells. Killing power can be increased with 3 Platings (which I recommend over 3sphere, but I know I'm in the Dstompy thread so I won't get into that :P)
- Weaker creatures, hence I opted for 2 slots of beefers: Wurmcoils/Hellkites.
- more prone to artifact hate (think SHattering spree under a moon O_O).
New Phyrexia:
This list was made before New Phyrexia was spoiled. Obviously now, the artifact approach could be more interesting with the new firebreathing dragon, and Phyrexia Metamorph (awesome card with Golems specifically)
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
The only thing I don't like about your above list, aside from Mox Diamond and 19 lands which I'll get to in a minute, is it doesn't have enough "Oops, I win" factor. There have to be creatures which can win the game on their own. There have to be the guys with the impact level of Slogger and Dragon who can just win by themselves if unanswered.
Etched Champion doesn't win games. He's defensive. He's small. He's great in Steel Stompy-ish decks. But he requires Cranial Plating be in the deck to run in Dragon Stompy. You have to either run both or neither.
Your top punch-packer is Lodestone Golem. Don't get me wrong. I -love- Lodestone Golem. He's disruptive, and he's a 4-turn clock. But he can't be t flagship guy in the deck. He's too easy to remove, block, or play around. He's a slowdown card, not a game-winning card, and on top of that he's kind of iffy with Trinisphere.
Phyrexian Revoker isn't a punch-packer either. He's an assist tool. He helps your Chalices and Moons go "Oops, I win" more efficiently.
And just two big artifact guys isn't enough to get there, I feel.
And...Mox Diamond with 19 lands? Seriously?
Yupp, that was one of the main reason I kinda scrapped the list. It was just too hard to maintain high artifact count to power Opal while being able to play bigger creatures. Perhaps drop the Champions from the list and play bigger threats? (Dragons, wurmcoils)
The eventual question becomes: Is Meandeck MUD with less explosiveness and Blood Moon better than Dragonstompy or Meandeck MUD? lol
Taco, the list was brewed a long time back, was clearly suboptimal, but that was the direction I was taking before I decided to leave it aside because it wasn't fitting in. However, it's just a possibility with what artifact-versions of the deck could do. It's probably not worthwhile since you're losing a ton more gas than gaining the sustained disruption and better card advantage.
19 lands does support 3 Mox Diamond, although barely. The goal I laid out for Mox Diamond was to look at hands where you usually open with at least 3 lands (2 to make 2 land drops, 1 pitched to Diamond).
With 19 lands, the probability you draw x lands in opening hands are:
(calculations are hypogeometric distributions assuming no replacements)
7______6_______5_______4_______3_______2_______1________0______
0.01%__0.29%__2.47%__10.70%__25.41%__33.18%__22.12%__5.82%
contrast this with Steel Stompy with 23 lands
7______6_______5_______4________3________2________1_______0______
0.06%__0.97%__5.80%__17.82%___30.29%__28.56%__13.84%__2.67%
But the main model to contrast is actuall Meandeck MUD with 16 lands
7______6_______5_______4________3________2________1_______0______
0.00%__0.09%__1.07%__6.24%____19.68%___33.74%__29.24%__9.92%
As you can see, you ideally want a 3-land hand with an opening 7 (to play 2 land drops and pitch a land). 16 lands is on the low-end where you will most likely be stuck with 1-2 land hands. 19 lands you're tending more towards 2-3 land hands than 1-2 land hands. 23 lands you're tending most towards 3 land hands, followed by 2 land hands.
Regardless, it depends on how greedy the deck wants to be. I usually prefer safer 2-3 land hands for stompy decks (since 1 Wasteland on an Ancient Tomb = dead cards in your hands). 19 is about the bare minimum. 18 land is shifting hands with 1-2 lands to be as frequent as 2-3 lands. My buddy plays Meandeck MUD and he agreed to up to 18 lands, which almost barely supports Diamonds (i.e. you draw 1-2 and 2-3 land hands with same frequency with the most common land count at 2 lands drawn per opening 7). But since Meandeck MUD is a deck built purely on explosiveness, 18 lands is as best as you can afford without inconsistencies, at least probabilistically-wise.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Is a mox even needed? Mox made sense when the deck played many 3cc and 5cc cards. It's not needed if the deck plays mostly 2cc (2 for 2/1 flyer, 3/1 first strike and 2/1 piting needle, jitte, cranial plating, chalice, ankh of mishra?) and 4cc stuff (new dragon, lodestone golem, masticore). Crystal Vein makes more sense with those cards.
Maybe playing more of these cheap artifact flying equipment carriers (1 for 1/1 flying lifelink that evades chalice at 1, 2 for 2/1 flyer, 3/1 first strike and 2/1 piting needle) and Crystal Vein makes more sense. Both Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are inherent card disadvantage. Metalworker is not).
To your fundamental question is mud with blood moon/magus better than either mud or dragon stony, I actually lean to yes!
Priest is better the more equipments the deck runs and the fewer 5cc creatures it runs. Molten Dragon is really powerful, ending games in just one attack if you have enough life, it basically as a psuedohatred built into it, along with evasion.
Priest is solid with blood moon and magus. Turn one equipment, turn two priest + moon seems solid.
The Dragon works really well with Priest. I think the right move is to cut 5cc cards and seething songs out completely and run these newer faster guys instead.
If we cut out all spells that need double red, we can do without priest and we can cut back slightly on the number of red sources we run as well. With all the strong artifacts including lodestone golem, chrome mox is losing it's luster though while opal is looking better and better. Yes this brings the deck closer to MUD, but surely, if that is the stronger approach, it's worth testing.
I believe priest, equipment and low drops are the way to go. Steel stompyish may be a possibility but I've also tried and scrapped it due to 1 big point. Moon turns all your Sol lands to mountains! How do you expect to cast 5-6cc spells without them? Small utility weenies, equipment, priest topped off by moltensteel is Very consistent, something dstompy has been missing.
I hate to depend on song. There have been as many games I've lost as I've won because I can't cast rpd/slogger without song. There are also many instances where I've lost because I can't reach 4-5 mana due to moon turning my sol lands to mountains.
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