[SCD] Mental Misstep

[SlopeeJ]

Does that even make sense? You're saying that a zoo player sacing his pridemage is an auto vs merfolk and I'm saying no it isn't that is bad. Wtf does that have to do with you saying mental misstep is good in zoo. I have played plenty of zoo who are scared of vial and then I just cast my creatures and they could have hit me for up to 6/8+ damage with the pridemage

So again having an exalted creature swing is zoo's plan, not spending 3 mana and sacing a creature to kill a vial. Sure there are times when sacing is right, but there are also times when you cast creatures/burn and win. What if I don't draw vial? You have 4 dead cards in your deck.. Sure people have listed plenty of cards/situations that are good, but I can list just as many that are bad

How much of a tempo boost do you get if I go turn 1 vial and then you rip the misstep? Or just pass and drop commander? The list goes on and on both ways.. I would bet that putting a card that is out of color and not even in the decks strategy is bad.

Don't forget you can still counter the spell for 1 mana...... in blue decks


Ps same goes for needle on vial, needling vial with control doesn't stop merfolk and mean gg. They can still cast coralhelms and Lord of Atlantis


So again 4 force, 4 daze, 4 mental misstep, 4 cursecatcher, 3 spell pierce vs your 4 mental misstep....

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm fairly certain that all other things being equal, you want Merfolk to actually pay for their spells.

[Skeggi]

Top isn't a threat in and of itself

I have to disagree. Top is a wonderful card on itself, considering you play at least 7 fetchlands.

MM is sideboard tech for aggro decks in it's BEST application

That's a bold statement. I haven't tested the card, so I cannot say whether you're right or not, but I suspect its impact will be bigger than this.

Canonist + Traps is still better

Against combo, I agree. If you want versatility, I disagree.

[Mr. Safety]

I'd rather have an orange than an apple.

You aren't comparing like cards at all, just jumping off the observation that it counters SDT on the Draw. You are are also bringing up cards with colored mana, which means you really fail to grasp the ubiquity that this card will have in the format.

It was in specific reference to the ideat hat MM is worth including to counter SDT, that's all. Grips and Grudges cover so many more problematic cards than MM does. Grips alone can handle both CB and SDT...MM can only handle Tops. If you're planning hate in your sideboard, you only have 15 slots, and those slots need to be more than a 1-trick pony. I wouldn't want MM in the control matchup...I would want more threats. I've already stated that Traps + Canonists are a better action plan than MM for the combo matchup. In the control matchup like CounterTop, I'd probably sideboard in Krosan Grip and most likely drop Path to Exile for it...and keep the same game plan: turn dudes sideways and hustle burn.

I am also refrencing a specific deck: zoo. There is a lot of hype about zoo playing MM, and I just don't see it. It's possible, but my experience has been that it just won't be worth sacrificing threats for answers, not for a deck like zoo. In the combo matchup its a neccessary evil, and it needs to be duel-layered at that (Canonist or Traps won't get you the hate you need on their own...they both need to be in there.) Combo is zoo's worst matchup...so a good # of sideboard slots are dedicated to it (usually at least 5-6).


I essentially see 2 decks running SDT: junk and CounterTop (sometimes Deadguy Ale or The Gate, but these are generally less common). Against junk, I want to out-aggro them and kill bob with bolts. Against CounterTop I want to get threats down ASAP before CB/SDT get online, and bring in Grips so I can can get my burn spells into the game. Given the choice, I'd probably kill Counterbalance with Grip and leave the Top...and try to out-race them. The CounterTop matchup isn't so bad that you need duel-layered hate like MM and Grips...I think Grips are enough (along with just a shit-ton of threats). Firespout is usually a sideboard card for CounterTop (I think anyways, do they use it maindeck now?) so it's something you can play around with your SB (like with Sulfuric Vortex)

In a nutshell, Mental Misstep, IMO, is the spell every OTHER deck wants AGAINST zoo. Zoo doesn't need MM to coutner MM...it needs more threats than the other deck has answers. Again, just my opinion...take it or leave it.

BTW, I am slightly retarded...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....

[Skeggi]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....

And cost mana....yuck! Paying mana for spells is so 1995.

[Mr. Safety]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....

edited...omg I'm slow, lol

[Mr. Safety]

I have to disagree. Top is a wonderful card on itself, considering you play at least 7 fetchlands.

That's a bold statement. I haven't tested the card, so I cannot say whether you're right or not, but I suspect its impact will be bigger than this.
Against combo, I agree. If you want versatility, I disagree.

I can tell simply by your statement about SDT that you are a control oriented player...you understand that cards like Top can win you the game. I understand that, sure. What I'm saying is that Top is not a literal 'threat' as in one that will take your life total down. If I'm playing zoo, I want to take them to zero life PRONTO. That means I want that card in hand to convert to at least 3 damage.

[Skeggi]

I can tell simply by your statement about SDT that you are a control oriented player...you understand that cards like Top can win you the game. I understand that, sure. What I'm saying is that Top is not a literal 'threat' as in one that will take your life total down. If I'm playing zoo, I want to take them to zero life PRONTO. That means I want that card in hand to convert to at least 3 damage.

Ofcourse Top is probably not the best card to use in Zoo, but according to this logic Sylvan Library is also a bad card for Zoo. Anyway, that's not the point, we were talking about the importance of Sensei's Divining Top in Counterbalance decks, and for this deck more than others, Sensei's Divining Top is essential. The ability to counter that turn 1 Top seems like something Zoo would welcome, the fact that this costs instead of the you pay for Pithing Needle also seems like something Zoo wants, because you can still play your turn 1 Wild Nacatl.

[Mr. Safety]

Ofcourse Top is probably not the best card to use in Zoo, but according to this logic Sylvan Library is also a bad card for Zoo. Anyway, that's not the point, we were talking about the importance of Sensei's Divining Top in Counterbalance decks, and for this deck more than others, Sensei's Divining Top is essential. The ability to counter that turn 1 Top seems like something Zoo would welcome, the fact that this costs instead of the you pay for Pithing Needle also seems like something Zoo wants, because you can still play your turn 1 Wild Nacatl.

Valid point...nicely worded!

[Mr. Safety]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....

Narrower, sure, but more effective in doing what your sideboard needs to. Sure, Mental Misstep could counter a lot of spells...but you don't need your sideboard to attack EVERYTHING...just your bad matchups.

[SlopeeJ]

haha bringing in needle vs top in zoo is terrible. You already have much better card with split second that beats counter balance, also along with the other cards such as moat bridge long list. If it isn't top paired with counterbalance locking you out of the game, zoo doesn't care about top. You can still play your turn one Nacatl without mental misstep and you might still even have relevant card in your hand.. Like another cat or bolt or goyf or anything that isn't mental misstep

[Mr. Safety]

haha bringing in needle vs top in zoo is terrible. You already have much better card with split second that beats counter balance, also along with the other cards such as moat bridge long list. If it isn't top paired with counterbalance locking you out of the game, zoo doesn't car about top. You can still play your turn one Nacatl without mental misstep and you might still even have relevant card in your hand.. Like another cat or bolt or goyf or anything that isn't mental misstep

Word up! You reinforced my understanding of threat density and why its important in zoo. I still feel Skeggi's point is Valid though...given the right metagame, Mental Misstep could have a lot of value (especially in a metagame chock full of combo decks and CounterTop decks, the CounterTop decks also trying to fight the combo decks with Mental Misstep)

EDIT: go here and read this (if you haven't already read it from the thread it belongs to)

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Hysteria.html

At least Matt Elias agrees with me, lol.

[bruno_tiete]

Grips and Grudges cover so many more problematic cards than MM does. Grips alone can handle both CB and SDT...MM can only handle Tops.

I am pretty confidant that if we take a look at Legacy most played spells, the "1cc" class beats the hell out of the "Grippable" class.

A few pages ago you mentioned you'd rather have Grudge vs Top. Not only that is tempo loss(1RG vs 2), but also it's likely to net you -1 card. Even if you DO Grudge in response to fetchlands or else, they are not down a card, while you are soon to be when you try that out of the graveyard for the second time.

From what I understand, your catch-all spells should come in the MD, while your specific bullets sit in the board. They can be narrower and more efficient in their mission, for they won't sit dead draws nearly as much simply because you'll just play them when relevant.

Given the format is so 1cc intense, why would one waste SB slots in them? They seem like "play in MD or don't" to me. I don't remember seeing people playing broad stuff like Vindicate or Force of Will* out of the board. Either they fit your plan and go MD or they just don't. Sure, MM is less broad than both, but still a lot more than Grip or Grudge or even Gaddock Teeg.


*Yeah, that one Dredge list.

[Mr. Safety]

I am pretty confidant that if we take a look at Legacy most played spells, the "1cc" class beats the hell out of the "Grippable" class.

Zoo plays those spells...which is good. It maintains a high threat density. Read the article, you'll know where I'm coming from.

A few pages ago you mentioned you'd rather have Grudge vs Top. Not only that is tempo loss(1RG vs 2), but also it's likely to net you -1 card. Even if you DO Grudge in response to fetchlands or else, they are not down a card, while you are soon to be when you try that out of the graveyard for the second time.

Wha-huh? Anicent Grudge for 1R on the play, then simply G whenever you feel the need. Great against Affinity (killing 2 artifacts for 3 mana and 1 card? In case you hadn't noticed, that's what we sometimes call 'card advantage'.) Grip is uncounterable (usually) vs CounterTop, so it gets the nod in a CounterTop heavy meta...but in an affinity/stompy heavy meta, I'd take Grudges over Grips.

From what I understand, your catch-all spells should come in the MD, while your specific bullets sit in the board. They can be narrower and more efficient in their mission, for they won't sit dead draws nearly as much simply because you'll just play them when relevant.

I fundamentally agree with you on the second line...but you shouldn't look at your deck (especially zoo!) as a maindeck full of 'catch-all' spells...it should be a focused strategy that wins you the game. Utility is important (ie Qasali Pridemage) but other than that, zoo is dudes and burn, plain and simple. Even Pridemage hits for 3 on his own and adds a combat bonus, so that makes him just about PERFECT for zoo. Zoo is about posing threats, not catch-all answers. You want to be the aggro, for sure. Sideboard hate is about giving you game vs. your bad matchups.

Given the format is so 1cc intense, why would one waste SB slots in them? They seem like "play in MD or don't" to me. I don't remember seeing people playing broad stuff like Vindicate or Force of Will* out of the board. Either they fit your plan and go MD or they just don't. Sure, MM is less broad than both, but still a lot more than Grip or Grudge or even Gaddock Teeg.

I agree with Matt Elias...folks will try MM in zoo, and eventually decide that while it CAN be played in it, it SHOULDN'T be. Sideboarding is an art and most matches are reliant on how well you sideboard. Your ultimate goal is to leave your maindeck strategy intact while taking out irrelivant cards for relivant ones. It is simple, but not easy to pick the best ones. The metagame can sometimes be a crapshoot. Path to Exile is fairly useless against CounterTop...but Krosan Grip isn't. Why bring in only 4 counterspells (4 MM) when you KNOW your opponent not only is playing 4 of those, but 4 Force of Will, possibly 4 Daze, maybe a Spell Pierce or 2, and a combo of Top + CB that makes your Mental Missteps useless other than to counter SDT on turn 1? If you plan on doing that...plan on failing, epic failing. If you're zoo vs. junk (bob + tops) then it is just as little impact. Grips are good here, and you already have roughly 14 ways of getting rid of Bob (10 burns roughly and 4 Paths/Swords)? Hell, I wouldn't even side in Grips for this matchup...Pridemages should be sufficient.

In a nutshell: SDT isn't a good spell to attack with MM. If your meta is full of combo, it becomes Mindbreak Trap #5-8 if you think that would work for you in the sideboard. That's probably going to = 4 threats removed (your paths are useless vs combo, so those are a straight up trade). What do you take out? Canonist/Teeg can replace dumb beats by being a hate bear AND attacking. Goes a little better with what zoo wants to accomplish.

[Forbiddian]

I like how people are discussing this card like this:

"Oh, you can ignore Vial."
"Oh, you can ignore Top."

Even if a very explosive Zoo draw *CAN* ignore those key cards, don't forget that those spells are still the best cards against Zoo. If I'm playing Merfolk and facing down an explosive Zoo draw (especially if I'm on the draw), the card I want to see in my hand is Aether Vial. Aether Vial is the only card that gives me a chance (Force of Will could catch me up on Tempo, but the gas loss is very tough to recover from by midgame).

When you lose, it's always going to be because your opponent implemented his gameplan. Don't underestimate deflecting or mitigating your opponent's gameplan when designing a deck or talking about Magic theory.



Timewalk's effect is strong because it allows you to develop your board position by taking an extra turn.
It is EQUIVALENT to say it's strong because it completely and utterly disrupts your opponent for an entire turn, preventing your opponent from implementing his gameplan and giving you more time to win. Even though paying 1U slows your gameplan down, it disrupts your opponent far more. Timewalk could be looked at as a disruption spell.

This is reflected by the original wording of Timewalk, the slightly ambiguous "Opponent loses next turn."


I find it EXTREMELY confusing that forumgoers say things like, "Mental Misstep doesn't speed up your deck" or "Mental Misstep doesn't help implement your gameplan." This is like saying, "Timewalk doesn't speed your deck up. It just disrupts your opponent and ends up slowing you down."

While true, paying 1U to disrupt an entire turn of your opponent's is an amazing deal and aggressive blue decks should take advantage of it. Mental Misstep doesn't erase a full turn, but hopefully people can see that disrupting your opponent is often completely identical to speeding up yourself.

[Koby]

This is reflected by the original wording of Timewalk, the slightly ambiguous "Opponent loses next turn."

EDIT: Ah, I see. Still a stretch for a comparison.

On topic: Mental Misstep is no Time Walk. It gains tempo, sure; but it doesn't draw you a card, untaps your lands, and gains you another attack step. It's a counterspell. Pure and simple. Zoo does not want to play maindeck counterspells.

[conboy31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Nine

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...gcom/cotd/0803

The test card used the "loses next turn".

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When you lose, it's always going to be because your opponent implemented his gameplan. Don't underestimate deflecting or mitigating your opponent's gameplan when designing a deck or talking about Magic theory.

This is incredibly concise.

[Mr_Miyagi]

Let's take a look at the typical scenario where your opponent aims StP/Bolt at your 1st turn Wild Nacatl.

If the removalspell resolves: You play another dude for G/W/R (skip the attackstep) and call it redundancy, because that's what zoo does so well.

If you Mental Misstep that removalspell: Your Wild Nacatl lives to attack that turn and that's what Zoo is all about. Attacking.

This may look basic and simple and it really is. Mental Misstep for Zoo in this scenario practically reads: Put a Wild Nacatl with Haste into play. This is a great net, without any manainvestment.

Using these kinds of examples for other MM-targets gives us a clearer wiew of MM:s powerlevel. Time to wipe the dust off those glasses?

Back to the important question. Really, why wouldn't Zoo want this?