All B/R update speculation.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Never played with Necro, huh? Tendrils would gladly drop their ad Nauseam and Chants to run Necro and Pitch-counter. This would break Legacy ...

That deck sounds awful.

[bakofried]

Necro does bad, bad things. Think Doomsday but without having to memorize the piles or set things up at all, really.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Considering you lose about one game in fivehundred where you go turn 1 Ritual, Necro and it resolves in a well-built deck, this doesn't seem like such a good idea. Honestly, barring P9 and Yawgmoth's Will there isn't anything more broken than Necro. And yes, that includes Tinker. The only thing making Tinker better even in Vintage is that you don't need triple black for Tinker.

[menace13]

That deck sounds awful.

Yeah, 4 Necro Storm sounds awful..... I mean, who pays 7 life for a new hand and passes the turn in order to win?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No, I can imagine decks where Necropotence is good, I just mean a storm deck with Necropotence sounds awful. ANT doesn't require you to pass the turn. I can imagine it going into a deck like SnT.

Considering you lose about one game in fivehundred where you go turn 1 Ritual, Necro and it resolves in a well-built deck, this doesn't seem like such a good idea. Honestly, barring P9 and Yawgmoth's Will there isn't anything more broken than Necro. And yes, that includes Tinker. The only thing making Tinker better even in Vintage is that you don't need triple black for Tinker.

I don't think Necro costing triple black is a feature exclusive to Vintage.

Your first sentence is also hyperbolic and obviously wrong.

Necro seems really good, which black doesn't have a ton of at the moment, being honest. I don't think it seems broken because it does cost triple black and it does require you to pass the turn. I'm pretty sure there's a couple dozen cards that are clearly much better, Bargain, Flash, Academy, Skullclamp, etc. being on that list.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Yes, it costing triple black is also the only reason it isn't in every single Vintage deck other than Stax and Dredge (which simply don't plan on casting colored spells).
Necro is not really a black card, despite costing BBB. Ever since it was understood, it's a pure combo-card. It's rather easy: Play as many ways to find it as possible and as many ways as possible to play it turn 1. Whenever it resolves, you win the game. If you want to make black better, Necro isn't the way. It's the perfect way to make any color-combination but UB (and maybe UB splash X) unplayable.

And if you think that statement is hyperbole, you clearly never played with Necropotence in well-built decks (well, maybe it's only 300 games). If you cast Necro turn one and it resolves, you'll only lose those games in which the next ~15 cards of your library don't contain either a way to win, a way to draw more cards or a way to gain more life. I've been playing Magic for 15+ years and I can count the number of games I've lost after resolving turn 1 Necro on my fingers alone. No joke, honest truth.
Not one of the cards you mention is as broken as Necro, Flash included. Skullclamp and Bargain are laughably bad compared to Necro (one filling your deck with crap aka X/1s, the other costing 6). Academy is significantly weaker because it needs more things to go right (enough artifacts, ways to profit from the mana and not fizzling of the typical outlets aka Time Spiral) and Flash comes close but means you need to cram your deck full of dead cards and you have to avoid drawing more than one of those cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, it can be filed down into a fine powder that serves as an aphrodesiac and cure for cancer.

It's hard to argue with pure hyperbole. How many ways exist in Legacy for you to tutor and cast a turn 1 Necropotence? I guess you can Dark Ritual out an Infernal Tutor with an LED and then drop him, but that's one mana away from being able to do the same thing with Ad Nauseam. The difference being that the Ad Nauseam player could just kill you that turn. I guess you're describing a Tendrils deck, but passing the turn after paying fifteen life seems like a poor strategy to win with in a Tendrils deck, especially one that's ever on the draw.

[menace13]

Also, it can be filed down into a fine powder that serves as an aphrodesiac and cure for cancer.

It's hard to argue with pure hyperbole. How many ways exist in Legacy for you to tutor and cast a turn 1 Necropotence? I guess you can Dark Ritual out an Infernal Tutor with an LED and then drop him, but that's one mana away from being able to do the same thing with Ad Nauseam. The difference being that the Ad Nauseam player could just kill you that turn. I guess you're describing a Tendrils deck, but passing the turn after paying fifteen life seems like a poor strategy to win with in a Tendrils deck, especially one that's ever on the draw.

IBA, You're bored and trolling..
Necro has different design restrictions than Ad Naus does. FoW being the most important, you can play Daze since Cabals, DRits and Petal will help you cast a 3cc faster and Duress as well. Necro lifeloss can be offset with Soul Spike and lower the storm count needed for lethal, keep out of burn/damage range for a turn or enable another Necro refill if first go around isn't enough.

Bargain seems more safe to me than Necropotence. It costs 6 and will draw less cards on avg compared to TES or ANT off Ad Naus(Necro is also subject to this). Yawgmoth's Bargain does put them in hand instantly negating the need to pass the turn for the win, unlike Necro.

Unbanning many other cards first would be better. Gush, Oath and Drains can at least go into control decks and not only Combo.

[Darth Nihilus]

i dont get why lackey is on the list when aethervial is clearly a 10x stronger

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

IBA, You're bored and trolling.

Nope.

I get tired of this. Are people really so intellectually lazy on the Source that anytime you propose something outside of the options they're prepared to consider, they merely accuse you of being insincere?

Suppose I was being insincere; that doesn't prove the point. It wouldn't change anything.

Necro has different design restrictions than Ad Naus does. FoW being the most important, you can play Daze since Cabals, DRits and Petal will help you cast a 3cc faster and Duress as well. Necro lifeloss can be offset with Soul Spike and lower the storm count needed for lethal, keep out of burn/damage range for a turn or enable another Necro refill if first go around isn't enough.

You're untapping next turn with storm back at zero and you want to make one of your seven a Force too? I mean I suppose it's possible, I'm just not seeing what's unstoppable here. There's a lot of crazy turn one plays with a lot of mana acceleration that run into a brick wall against Force. The biggest test of bustedness, I think, is how good they are if it takes you a few turns to assemble your cards. Does letting you run Force mark a drastic uptick over the strength of being able to win the turn you actually resolve your central spell? I don't know. I'd be curious to see. But this list doesn't sound unstoppable to me. It sounds like it has a real and legitimate weakness over current storm combo, and I could be wrong but I don't think the problem with the deck right now is that it has problems winning when Ad Nauseam resolves with plenty of life left to trade.

Bargain seems more safe to me than Necropotence. It costs 6 and will draw less cards on avg compared to TES or ANT off Ad Naus(Necro is also subject to this). Yawgmoth's Bargain does put them in hand instantly negating the need to pass the turn for the win, unlike Necro.

Unbanning many other cards first would be better. Gush, Oath and Drains can at least go into control decks and not only Combo.

The average cc of non-Ad Nauseam cards in most storm decks seems to be about 1, so I don't see where there's a large difference in cards drawn on averages; it would just reduce your ability to kill yourself trying to maximize cards drawn.

[menace13]

Nope.

I get tired of this. Are people really so intellectually lazy on the Source that anytime you propose something outside of the options they're prepared to consider, they merely accuse you of being insincere?

Suppose I was being insincere; that doesn't prove the point. It wouldn't change anything.



You're untapping next turn with storm back at zero and you want to make one of your seven a Force too? I mean I suppose it's possible, I'm just not seeing what's unstoppable here. There's a lot of crazy turn one plays with a lot of mana acceleration that run into a brick wall against Force. The biggest test of bustedness, I think, is how good they are if it takes you a few turns to assemble your cards. Does letting you run Force mark a drastic uptick over the strength of being able to win the turn you actually resolve your central spell? I don't know. I'd be curious to see. But this list doesn't sound unstoppable to me. It sounds like it has a real and legitimate weakness over current storm combo, and I could be wrong but I don't think the problem with the deck right now is that it has problems winning when Ad Nauseam resolves with plenty of life left to trade.



The average cc of non-Ad Nauseam cards in most storm decks seems to be about 1, so I don't see where there's a large difference in cards drawn on averages; it would just reduce your ability to kill yourself trying to maximize cards drawn.

Very Lazy.

There isn't any problem with Storm, it will always be one of the best decks if not the best. The problem I see is that these draw engines by and large only fuel combo decks. It would not be unstoppable, but it does offer an alternate combo engine with different design space. Drawing 15 and shooting Soul Spikes while crafting the optimal 7 is perfectly viable line of play. The FoW/Daze is used to stop their advances as well as protecting the Necro. Necro, once cast, assembling a hand of Tendrils with Rituals and Artifacts is the goal and FoW isn't needed to protect the Storm after.

The cost in cards drawn is always 1 per with Necro/bargain. Ad Naus decks have up to 12 0 cost mana producing artifacts and lands are always free draws.

[lorddotm]

I'd love them to unban Mind Twist. I dunno. Necropotence doesn't seem that scary either. We have way more busted things that cost three mana and don't require you passing the turn.

You're the Charlie Sheen of The Source.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A combo-control deck seems more likely to me. But while it would have greatly improved game versus blue decks over current storm, it'd get beaten up by Zoo on the averages. That seems fine to me, honestly.

Also Ad Nauseam puts a lot of pressure on you to stop drawing at five life or below, and the average cc of every non-Ad Nauseam card is still about 1. There may be games where you get a bunch of artifacts and lands you don't particularly need, but there's also going to be games where you die because you had to find a business spell and you hit all your high cc guys. Ad Nauseam is clearly a really good card but I'm pretty sure it's worse than Bargain.

You're the Charlie Sheen of The Source.

I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. I'm a little high right now. I'm on this drug, it's called Jack Mother-Fucking Elgin.

[morgan_coke]

c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.

[lorddotm]

c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.

He's on Jack Mother-Fucking Eglin. Good luck getting through to him. He has Goyf blood in him.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.

What was the cardpool like?

I didn't know that, that's fairly compelling actually. I don't really pay much attention to MODO though.

I'd also want to know what the format looked like after bannings; if it's still just stupid combo deck, the problem would be restricted enablers, not Necro itself.

[perm]

Necropotence is obviously a retarded card to unban.... 1 life for 1 card is just absurd.

Mind twist I can totally see being unbanned. It's not like black hand disruption has a stranglehold on the format

[Amon Amarth]

What was the cardpool like?

I didn't know that, that's fairly compelling actually. I don't really pay much attention to MODO though.

I'd also want to know what the format looked like after bannings; if it's still just stupid combo deck, the problem would be restricted enablers, not Necro itself.

That worked in the past... right?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ha, touche.

Well I don't seem to be winning that argument. Maybe just Mind Twist. And Worldgorger Dragon. And Goblin Recruiter.

[.nemesis]

As someone who has played his fair share of Necropotence in EDH and Vintage, I see no single way it can ever come off the B/R list.

It works like this:
1. resolve Necro Turn 1
2. set aside any number of cards from 7-10
3. let your opponent do something less broken, maybe FoW something if he has a Necro himself
4. unleash a shitstorm of disruption on your opponent with the freshly drawn rituals and Duress effects
5. pay another 7 life
6. untap, kill with Tendrils.

I've yet to lose a game where I had the power of Necro. It's one of the most broken cards ever printed with only stuff like Timetwister or Balance being on comparable power level.

Then, on the other hand, maybe they unban Balance at the same time, to help combat Necro decks... but they'd probably play it themselves. :/