[Deck] Burn

[Sturtzilla]

"Atm I am not convinced that I cut the Vortexes in the future because Counterbalance decks will see more play after the release of NPH (and so will Merfolk, and then Zoo and so on...) and GW Maverick will be accepted as a DTB at some point (maybe because it is one of the best not-played deck in some countries/areas right now?) and then I simply wont accept to fold to "in response sword my Knight" and "pay 2, equip Jitte get in there for blablabla" and long lasting games and getting my ass whooped with just CC1&2 in my deck. Right now it might be a good call but I think in the future it really isnt.

I think our differences in builds would approach this scenario in different ways. Your's would hope to tick them down with the the Vortex, while I would hope to get through with a Figure. Vortex might be slower, but the possible negation of life gain can be real relevant. I think Figure puts them on a faster clock and applies pressure to their board position. However, Vortex offers a more solid and long term plan. Then again this is a very hypothetical scenario... However I will agree that those last few slots are meta dependent. I am just saying Figures are working pretty well for me.

[Kilz88]

Alright guys, here is my most recent list with some explanation:

Lands//

8x Mountain
12x Fetches

Dudes//

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental (Very good under standstill and vs counterbalance/blue)
4x Grim Lavamancer

Fast Burn//

4x Lighting Bolt
4x Price of Progress (Actually not loving it recently. People either play around it, which is why I missed top 16 at worlds, or are not playing many like merfolk...)
4x Fireblast

Slow Burn//

4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Flame Rift (wins FAST and believe it out not, is quite good in a race)

Sideboard//
4x Searing Blaze (Locked)
4x Vexing Shusher (Locked. It is absolutely better than blasts. You need this guy for counterbalance and chalice)
3x Smash to Smithereens (I feel like this is probably locked)
4x Pyrostatic Pillar (Now here is the weird one I am not at all happy with. Plus there are other cards I really wanna get into the board. Like someone else has said in the past few pages of the thread, I too had NO success with this against combo. They either duress/thoughtsiezed it or bounced it. I am not sure there is a better solution for combo but here are the cards I feel are important to try and fit in)

Anarchy (This is literally our ONLY way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity. Now granted there are not a TON of decks that play it but enchantress/white stacks/some landstills...and we just CANT beat it. With the exception of a few spells like flame rift, price, and the creatures it rains heavily on our parade)

Sulfuric Vortex (This one is obvious and boy do I hate pulse of the fields/rhox war monk)

Anyway guys, let me know what you think and what we can do about the combo matchup/sideboard. Lastly I will leave you with an alternate list I have been having some fun with:

Lands//

8x Mountain
12x Fetches

Dudes//

4x Goblin Guide
4x Hellspark Elemental (Very good under standstill and vs counterbalance/blue)
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Spark Elemental

Fast Burn//

4x Lighting Bolt
4x Searing Blaze
4x Fireblast

Slow Burn//

4x Chain Lightning
4x Reckless Abandon

Sideboard//
4x Sulfuric Vortex
4x Vexing Shusher
3x Smash to Smithereens
4x Price of Progress

:DDD

[ThoSha]

I think our differences in builds would approach this scenario in different ways. Your's would hope to tick them down with the the Vortex, while I would hope to get through with a Figure. Vortex might be slower, but the possible negation of life gain can be real relevant. I think Figure puts them on a faster clock and applies pressure to their board position. However, Vortex offers a more solid and long term plan. Then again this is a very hypothetical scenario... However I will agree that those last few slots are meta dependent. I am just saying Figures are working pretty well for me.

Why not play Vortex AND Figure? They are both good at what they do, and dont fight for the same slot at all.

[Azel Orfat]

Here you have a nice read about Burn building: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...rn_Report.html

About MM against Burn, I think we would need more than 12 creatures and be more prepared for a slower game. So, I'm currently testing this:

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 4 Searing Blaze
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Mental Misstep

Anyway, we don't know yet how many decks could run Misstep and how it really affects our deck.

[Mr Pirakos]

Why bother running fetchlands at all? The slight non-land top deck chance isn't worth the life lost and vulnerability to Stifle.

[Azel Orfat]

Why bother running fetchlands at all? The slight non-land top deck chance isn't worth the life lost and vulnerability to Stifle.

Because with them, Grim is much better and they also let you run Searing Blaze that it's a great card

[Sturtzilla]

@ ThoSha

I like the way you are thinking. However running both cards could prove problematic. Both Figure and Vortex are fairly mana intensive for this deck. I guess there is no way but to find out by playtesting though.


@ Kilz88

Great sideboarding analysis. I totally agree that Pillar doesn't get the job done. In my experience it will get bounced, cherry-picked from your hand or countered. Here is what I have been running in my sideboard. Keep in mind that I run 2 Taiga for a slight sideboard green splash.

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Searing Blaze
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Krosan Grip

Crypt helps with the Dredge and Reanimator matchups in a major way, as well as, keeping goyfs and knights managable. Smash to Smithereens deals with problematic artifacts in addition to Affinity and MUD. Both of these options do these jobs without dramatically hurting our tempo. Searing Blaze is just awesome. It helps sure up Zoo and Merfolk matchups or any other aggro match. I run a 3-3 Split between Susher and Grip because, while they sometimes address the same problem, they can be used in very different situations. Shusher helps against Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, and U/W tempo or control. Grip also helps with Counterbalance but also answers the gamut of problematic white enchantments that kill burn. One other nice reason for the green splash includes Back to Nature. If you expect to see loads of Enchantress, it is a great addition to the sideboard.


@Mr Pirakos

It is a slight non-land topdeck and also greatly contributes to Grim Lavamancer. As for the non-land topdeck, most builds get a diminishing 2% improvement of how likely you are to draw a land. That is your first fetch reduces your land draw likelihood by ~2% while your next fetch reduces your percentage by <~2%. This effect reduces each time you fetch. However if you fetch say 3 times in a game you have improved your draw percentage for non-land cards by maybe 4-6%. That is a decent amount of difference from the non-fetching variants. Yes it may open us up to Stifle, but we can operate on 2-3 lands. So this shouldn't be an issue, unless you are keeping one land fetch openers versus merfolk or landstill. At which point, in my opinion, it is pilot error, not build error.

[Kilz88]

@ Sturtzilla

Thanks for the compliments. I read that article and Sullivan is held in the highest regards when it comes to playing/building burn competitively and successfully IMO. I like what he had to say at times. When it came to creatures, I understand where he is coming from but I don't see why we should either fight counterbalance hard or not fight it at all. See I think cards like hellspark do help those match ups because if you run him out early, when they have no blockers, then you can use them later and they are uncounterable. Now on the flip side, I love his arguements for blasts. I have lost to Emerkul a lot lately and this upsets me because I have nothing to do about it. Now, blasts can help there and potentially with the combo/ANT/Tendrils match up (Although I am not sure if you bring them in there). So in a sense we can keep hellspark in to have some fight against counters/counterbalance, (CMC 2 as well. Not necessarily locked with CB/top), but supplement shusher with some blasts to fight some unfortunate match ups like Show and Tell. Now, I have not needed blasts against Fish in the past, I beat it 2-0 at worlds with just searing blaze but I am sure I will test it. Im thinking about this sideboard when it is all said and done:

Sideboard//
4x Searing Blaze
4x Vexing Shusher
3x Smash to Shit...lol
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast

I am gonna stick with Hellspark for now but I do see where he is going with Figure. It just is worse against counterbalance if you rip him off the top when you are trying to finish the game. If I draw Hellspark and have 4 lands and they are at 3....I smile. :)

EDIT: Forgot to comment about the green. I do NOT want to be vulnerable wasteland at any point. So the Taigas are a big turn off. Specifically the rare chance that I just draw it not off a fetch land. I am a huge fan of Back to Nature but that would have to be a drastic metagame choice. The problem white enchantments are generally found in white stax or enchantress. Stax runs wasteland and enchantress has sterling grove so you need something global. Basically I am saying we will need a strong showing of one of these decks to warrant making room for the removal in the board.

[Sturtzilla]

@ Kilz88

I also am of the opinion that while counterbalance deck may have some major advantages over burn, that is no reason to just roll over and die, if you like playing burn. If you enjoy playing burn and are skilled at it you can beat counterbalance (I am not saying it is easy). I agree that Hellspark Elemental shines in this match up. Binning them early and then using the longevity that they give you for late game can seal the deal pretty easily. Shusher can seal the game too, providing you can unload or your opponent is low on removal.

I haven't been seeing too much Sneak and Show in my area. If you are encountering it, then Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast make plenty of sense. I see a bit of ANT every now and then. My plan here is let then hurt themselves and then unload for game. Make early progress then let them help you out. But against any of the combo decks out there, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are solid options.

[Azel Orfat]

Shusher helps against Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, and U/W tempo or control. Grip also helps with Counterbalance but also answers the gamut of problematic white enchantments that kill burn. One other nice reason for the green splash includes Back to Nature. If you expect to see loads of Enchantress, it is a great addition to the sideboard.

Yep, Back to Nature seems great against Enchantress. I find instant speed important there. If they resp with Sterling ability you will have a mana free turn anyway. Against COTV you have also STS, so I think that with Krosan Grip you could cut the Shushers.

Anyway, I suppose that a metagame that justifies green splash would be very bad for Burn. But if you want to play Burn at any cost just because you love it ^^, I think that green splash can be a good option.

Now, I have not needed blasts against Fish in the past, I beat it 2-0 at worlds with just searing blaze but I am sure I will test it

I've done it and I have find them great against Merfolks. Protect some important cards/creatures or just have more instant "burn spells" to deal with their creautures is fine. On the other hand, REB could be a worse option due to MM.

About MM in side, I think that it could be great against some problematic cards. It can cut Enlightened Tutor to COP. Also, if Baseruption adds Misstep, we could deal with themselves, Sensei, Enlightened Tutor to Foundry and protect Vexing from Swords. The problem (like with REB) is that if we were already locked, we would have to force Sensei return.

[Sturtzilla]

Anyway, I suppose that a metagame that justifies green splash would be very bad for Burn. But if you want to play Burn at any cost just because you love it ^^, I think that green splash can be a good option.

Well if you think about the current decks to beat quite a few of them run some Counterbalance package. Some also run Phyrexian Dreadnought, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry. So Krosan Grip nukes quite a bit out of each of these decks. It saves you versus their counter package as well as their win conditions.

In addition Krosan Grip serves the purpose of saving burn's ass from getting blown out by Leyline of Sanctity, Worship, CoP: Red, Story Circle, and Ivory Mask to name a few. Red has no means to deal with enchantment based answers unless you consider Anarchy. Anarchy is a more narrow card than Krosan Grip. It is also more mana which can be a bit of a problem for this deck. I am not saying that the green splash is necessary for this deck. I am just saying that it has helped me improve some of my poorer match ups in addition to allowing an out versus many of the cards that hose this deck.

About MM in side, I think that it could be great against some problematic cards. It can cut Enlightened Tutor to COP. Also, if Baseruption adds Misstep, we could deal with themselves, Sensei, Enlightened Tutor to Foundry and protect Vexing from Swords. The problem (like with REB) is that if we were already locked, we would have to force Sensei return.

I guess in a small cross section of scenarios Mental Misstep could be good for burn. I am very skeptical about this though. I feel that there are plenty other sideboard options that will serve this deck better.

[bowvamp]

Has anyone tried Chancellor of the Dross? I'm trying to do a rather Jank-y take on no-creature pure burn with it, and I've got a consistent t3 kill.

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Lava Spike
4 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Sonic Seizure
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
2 Price of Progress
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
^My deck as of now (note: I don't own any of these cards, but I am testing with a printed deck)

[Sturtzilla]

EDIT: Forgot to comment about the green. I do NOT want to be vulnerable wasteland at any point. So the Taigas are a big turn off. Specifically the rare chance that I just draw it not off a fetch land. I am a huge fan of Back to Nature but that would have to be a drastic metagame choice. The problem white enchantments are generally found in white stax or enchantress. Stax runs wasteland and enchantress has sterling grove so you need something global. Basically I am saying we will need a strong showing of one of these decks to warrant making room for the removal in the board.

Running only 2 Taiga in a deck that runs 18-20 lands, half of which are fetches, generally keeps you from top decking a Taiga. I can understand your concern on that occurring. I generally don't run Back to Nature in my board as my meta does not have much enchantress; I was just noting it as an option, if you are seeing a lot of that. And you are right, it would be a drastic meta-dependant change to make. The green splash really does help with counterbalance builds as Krosan Grip takes out their lock and sometimes can nuke their win cons.

[Tacosnape]

You people are worried too much about Mental Misstep. (...Says the guy who thinks it's the second coming of Magic Jesus.)

Mental Misstep isn't really all that big of a deal in non-blue decks for Burn. Burn wants to spend a red mana to make opponents lose life. Freecast Mental Missteps fit in with this schematic pretty well. If they spend a card to get a net gain of 1 life, well, go with it. Sometimes that'll actually be worth it for them, but more times than not, it won't.

Secondly, in blue decks, Mental Misstep has to replace -something-. A lot of times, it'll replace other counters. Things like Spell Pierce, which while unable to hit your Lavamancers and Guides, will do just fine at nailing your Prices, Fireblasts, Searing Blazes, and sometimes Rift Bolts.

In the case of Merfolk, it's decreasing their threat density. So it could be worse if they get a balanced hand with a Misstep, a Daze, and a couple guys. But they could also get more slow clock hands where the clock is a turn slower to compensate for the fact that you got a spell countered.

Burn is not a worrier's deck. The extent of your worrying should be doing what you do as efficiently as possible. Just do what Burn always has done. Stop caring, stop overthinking, and go throw red spells at shit. It's going to work just as well (If not better) than it ever has.

[Spartacvs]

Post misstep legacy...

I won my local event tonight here in Tokyo with this

4 Gobling Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Figure of Destiny

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike

4 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast

8 Mountain
12 Fetches

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Searing Blaze

R1 I beat the "mirror" he played 19 11 mountain 8 fetch land no figures or lava spikes sulfuric vortex x3 main and a flamebreak and had 4 Keldon Marauders. Figures were really good

R2 I played vs monoblack reanimator I win the roll and G1, G2 he plays t1 needle on the crypt in my hand :( and reanimates iona :(.. G3 he plays t2 Grave Titan off double dark rit, he asks after tha game if he should have played the thoughtseize he revealed of my guide attack, I show him it wouldnt matter since he was at 6 when I flame rift and fireblast him on on turn 4 he would have been at 4 not 6 and one of those would have been enough

R3 I had to play my friend (Boots from these here forums) unfortunately(he cant get good pairings lately)... he's was playing fish with 2 Jitte and 1 SoFi main we went to 3 games because g2 I double mull and draw 3 Fireblast effectively mulling me 3 times.

Burn is the real deal and largely ignores Mental misstep since you effectively get a shock out of your spell anyway. I'm considering playing MM in the board thou and maybe 1 or 2 of P. Metamorph to deal with reanimator and other cheat a fatty into play decks.

Keep on Fireblastin'!

Peace,

Sean

[Mr. Safety]

You people are worried too much about Mental Misstep. (...Says the guy who thinks it's the second coming of Magic Jesus.)

That will be going into my signature, sir! Very funny indeed... :)

In the case of Merfolk, it's decreasing their threat density. So it could be worse if they get a balanced hand with a Misstep, a Daze, and a couple guys. But they could also get more slow clock hands where the clock is a turn slower to compensate for the fact that you got a spell countered.

I think there are 2 camps on MM with Fish decks...one is dropping Cursecatcher, the other is dropping Daze. Not entirely sure about that one, but the first camp does indeed drop their threat density.

Burn is not a worrier's deck. The extent of your worrying should be doing what you do as efficiently as possible. Just do what Burn always has done. Stop caring, stop overthinking, and go throw red spells at shit. It's going to work just as well (If not better) than it ever has.

Agreed...I think Mental Misstep actually HELPED burn get a little better. Go figure...

[evanmartyr]

I think the only possible splash damage we took from Mental Misstep was Reckless Abandon and Goblin Grenade going from bad to fucking-don't-ever-play-that-card-you-silly-bastard. Some games will be slightly harder due to Grim Lavamancer or Goblin Guide being countered on the play, but that's roughly equivalent to a worse Swords to Plowshares. So that's fine.

If anything, it's a boon to us, since it gives us a tempo-free answer to opposing efficient blockers, and it gives you a half-decent sb option for match-ups in which it'd be useful...whether that's something you need, or not, the option's there.

[ThoSha]

Anyone thought about a RW Burn deck with Lightning Helix and Orims Chant yet?
I bet its more competitive in a developed meta than stupid burn tbh.

[Sturtzilla]

I think there are 2 camps on MM with Fish decks...one is dropping Cursecatcher, the other is dropping Daze. Not entirely sure about that one, but the first camp does indeed drop their threat density.

Actually many of the merfolk builds out there are cutting standstill for mental misstep or other cards to improve their spell resolving power versus mental misstep. In the last SCG legacy open, there were quite a few merfolk builds in the top 16 and only one was running standstill. I just thought I would add that little bit of knowledge. I highly doubt that skilled players will drop cursecatcher. He is a clock and slows down or shut down combo, while helping the deck versus control and removal elements. This removal of standstill could be good or bad for burn. Less standstills will me slower draws for merfolk. However it will mean that they are packing more counter magic. So watch out for dazes and mental missteps.

[Ultralisk]

Hi all!

Just started working on Monored Burn as my first Legacy deck.

I have 4 Goblin Guides and 4 copies of the Fire & Lightning premium deck which I got as a Christmas present, so I'm pretty set once I get hold of REB, Pyroblast and the rest of the older cheap cards! I also have fetches as I'm building monored with Koth in standard.

I have some questions though. What is Searing Blaze boarded in *against*? The rest of the sb seems logical. Also what comes out for what goes in? I know there's a lot of redundancy so it may be a straight up matter of drop the least powerful mb card for said MU for x but yeah, all help appreciated!

Thanks again