Actually, against decks with Tarmogoyf, I normally sideboard in Perish since they would sacrifice less quality creatures anyways. WW just never, or rarely ever, hit the creature I want, from experience. However, the other day, I was fighting against a guy with The Gate deck. The guy had a proxy Phyrexian Obliterator. I wished I had WW. Phyrexian Obliterator is literally a Moat that can swing for 5 at any moment. It stalled me for a good three turns. My only answer was to bring in Stingscourger, make a quick swing, and finish him off with the Prospector - Commander - Sharpshooter combo, which I love. Luckily, I was able to answer his Jitte with my Tinkerer early on or I would have easily lost the game. I am considering to sideboard WW though because my deck currently has no answers for deck like The Gate. Then again, I can't sideboard against everything.Originally Posted by Malchar
By the way, why is splashing for white so unpopular now? It has the best creature removal (Sword to Plowshare) and a decent answer to artifacts and enchantments (Disenchant), both of which seems important. Though, Sword to Plowshare does not answer Progenitus. I vaguely remember white being a popular splash for Goblins before I quit.
Because now exist a great removal spell in Black, that is a goblin, and Green got the best anti-artifact/enchantament in form of Krosan Grip, or faster one in form of Nature's claim. Also, Orim's Chant is outdated as a form of fighting combo.
The W splash sure is viable though.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Hovels only held their place in my deck until I could afford Badlands. My current setup is 4x Badlands, 4x Bloodstained Mire, and 2x Arid Mesa with a handful of mountains. I like having 6 fetchers, the life loss doesn't bother me; and if you're playing against Wastelands just grab your basics if you can get by without black.I was just about to tell you, but I was too hungover this weekend - I've been playing quite some games on Magic Online last weekend and lost several games because of this. Looks like all of a sudden it is a problem! Crap hovels, I'm kicking them out!
I'm just not sure if I should run 3 or 4 Badlands and 7 or 8 fetches to run along them.
Well, not me anymore, those things stink. I guess I always used to play in a Hovel-friendly meta. But now, they've proven to be terribad.
WW is better than Stp. The tribal synergy is extremely valuable, they don't gain any life, and it kills progenitus/emrakul. Yea they can sac random weenies, but this is usually ok anyway. You still trade 1 for 1, and every weenie is going to be a blocker eventually. In fact, most "weenies" will kill any goblin outright and trade with a piledriver anyway, so whether you hit a goyf or a trinket mage with WW isn't that big of a deal.
Black also gives you cabal therapy and other things which can deal with combo. I don't think Chant is that great anyway. Combo is always going to be an uphill battle for goblins until we get a tribal answer.
As for my original statement, WW first started seeing play against those decks where the creature base looked like 4x goyf, 4x goose, 2x fatty (because that was the meta). In this scenario, WW always hit something valuable since even the smallest one has shroud anyway. Nowadays with stuff like noble hierarch floating around, WW has gotten worse.
Thanks ScatmanX and Malchar for your help. I decided to take out Taiga in favor for more Badlands to have a more consistent black mana source and WW now feels less restrictive, since I am less worried about Wasteland. Here is my current list. I tried it out yesterday and is actually doing pretty well. I do not have Cabal Therapy but Duress seems to work fine for me.
Lands (22)
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
7 Fetch Lands
Core (26)
Others (12)
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding
Sideboard
1 Boardtusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Duress
Something I noticed between black splash vs. green splash is that black has better aggro control, but requires more devotion towards the mana base and has no answers against powerful enchantments. Green on the other hand pretty much plays like mono red. I never have to search for Taiga unless I need it for Krosan Grip in the late game, which allows me to dodge Wastelands for this mana hungry deck. However, it has mediocre aggro control against decks like Thresh, The Gate, etc.
Honestly, both have there ups and downs and I do not really know which I like more. Mono red seems to be weak while a dual black/green splash seems to be risky, which is why I was opted to splash for white. If I know I will not be facing a meta filled with Aluren, Enchantress, Moat, Humility, Propaganda, and Perish, I will probably go for black for a more aggressive approach.
Anyways, thanks again. I am still trying to learn the meta game.
Why has Goblins fallen off the scoreboard?
It's clear that Goblins is getting crowded out of the upper echelons of tournament Legacy. In StarCityGames Opens only 1 Goblin deck has made top 16 in the past 7 events. As one of the most prevalent decks in the field of every tournament it is a shame that we are seeing our beloved Goblins outmatched and outplayed.
Is it time to hang up the Goblin gloves? We're facing more and more interactive decks that can easily handle our 1-drops and we've seen a growing variety and and higher quality of combo decks which Goblins have no natural answer to. Affinity, Dredge, and Painterstone have board-state combos which we can hardly interact with, and High Tide and Elves have widened the array of Storm based combo decks we are potentially faced against.
It's becoming a lot harder for a deck that doesn't run Force of Will to deal with the punches coming from every angle.
I'm not quite willing to concede that Goblins is no longer playable, but it needs some help. Fast. I for one am banking on Mental Misstep mainboard giving Gobbos some more outs against the hyper-interactive and combo-heavy decks running around these days. Then, I'm going to pray to the lords of WotC that some Legacy worthy goblins get printed soon. The deck has barely changed since Invasion block, and could really use some new blood to stay competitive. Chieftain and Instigator were fine, but nothing new or innovative. We need to see another Goblin card like Piledriver: Over-powered and underpriced. A straight-up automatic 4-of MD. A casting cost of 1R or less is essential too. But I don't see that on the horizon...
When people realize Counterbalance is good again, this deck will see more results.
The thing is: You got it right. Almost all decks can respond our 1 drops now, and those that can't, simply don't care, and kill us turn 2-4.
Goblin is a "fair" deck, in my view, competing now where "unfair" decks are rampant.
Turn 1 Vial don't give us the safety it once did.
Another thing is that our builds may not be suited for the metagame too.
I remember running goblin lists with 7-9 removal spells MD. That meant the the deck was more geared toward killing the opponent turn 3-4, and not caring about much else. Now, decks play something like 4-5 removals MD, those being 4 Gempalm Incinerator, that only gets great past turn 3-4. Cards like MWM are like this too. Defensive. But they don't work all that well now. This was the type of card that worked great against Rock and Zoo, but now, that we have Junk and affinity, their decks got faster than our defenses, so it is clearly not working out.
I, for one, couldn't solve the puzzle, and switched to combo, while CB is gone.
Give it a few months, Goblins will come back to what it was.
OR, create something new, that can either "control" those faster decks, or either disrupt them enough to be able to race them.
(or, maybe I'm just talking rubbish... been away from the green dudes too long...)
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
This is my philosophy with goblins: Just kill them. Trying to react to opponent seems mediocre. That is why I am trying to play monored tempo goblins.
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Incinerator
2 Warren Instigator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Lighting Crafter
4 Goblin Ringleader
16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Mutalvault
SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Patron of the Akki
2 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg Fanatic
Explanation of bad card choices
4 Goblin Chieftain- I have no idea why people still play 4 Goblin Warchief. Instead of playing more spells you get to beat face for more damage. Maybe somebody can enlighten me.
2 Warren Instigator- seems good, even better with chieftain.
3 Mutavault- I rather bring the beats than tap someone's land with rishadan port.....
3 Lightning Bolt- Gets creatures through, Messes up math, and goes to the dome. Wish it was goblin.
1 Lightning Crafter- Optional Slot for late game (Standstill breaker)
2 Stingscourger- this guy is good, want to be able to search for second one and also increase probability that it is in my hand.
SB:
Warren Instigator is sided in vs deck with not many critters
Patron of the Akki is vs Firespout and non combo decks for dead cards
CotV- Random Jank (elves burn belcher etc.)
Mogg Fanatic- For dredge and goblin mirror (LOL! like that will happen)
Less than 4 Goblin Warchief is a huge mistake. For someone claiming to play a "tempo" deck (whatever that means, with all the definitions out there), you fail to realize that playing spells for cheap is really good. Hasty, cheap Piledrivers win more games than people admit.
How often can you not play Piledriver for 2?
Piledriver for 1 >>>>> Piledriver for 2. I would much rather be able to chain Goblins into a hasty horde than give 'em a Lord bonus.
Absolutely. Playing Matron and Piledriver for 1RR and attack immediately is pure speed.
About outdated Goblins, lets wait for NPH to shake the format. Maybe MM is the nail to our coffin or the keyspell to kill combo (with SB help in our Deck, but with tons of them being played generally)
But indeed id like to see another powerful goblin, not as degernated as Piledriver but an updatet Mogg Fanatic R 2/1 Sacs for 1dmg
Goblin Arsonist is pretty much the updated Mogg Fanatic with the M10 rules. If he had the option to be sacrificed, he would have been perfect. Oh well.
That's just another reason to play "fast" goblins. Seems that chumpblocking with MWM, weird Skirk Shooter pseudo-combos and Rishadan Port's tricks are not working properly. On the other hand, Warren Instigators, Goblin Chieftains, and 3rd SGCs are still doing their best: winning games.
I've learned from a Zoo player the best strategy for dealing with those Control/Tempo decks. THREAT DENSITY are the key words. Let me explain in an easy way: "Oh! You countered my lackey? Ok, here's the Warren Instigator..Eh, you countered my WI? Here's the Goblin Chieftain."
This works better with Zoo, because if they just counter a Tarmogoyf, you just play another stupidly unfair fatty that beats for lots. BUT, it also works for Goblins. I've even tried to fit in 2 Fireblasts in my main deck, to make it a Goblin Sligh (wtf). They were fine, but it messed with Ringleaders late game (when you need the fireblast).
Perhaps the best way to make Goblins better is the aggro plan, and not giving a fuck about manascrewing hard, or controlish stuff.
I feel you. It certainly doesn't help that the deck has been around forever, everyone knows how to play against it and it never gets any love from from pros with the notable exception of Cedric Phillips. If you're having a hard time against the decks listed above then change your deck to beat them. Play more creature removal. Things like Lightning Bolt, Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter and Sparksmith are all excellent MD cards if you're trying to beat decks with creatures. Sparksmith is really good against anything that doesn't pack burn and is pretty hilarious against many of the midrange decks. Playing against Dredge isn't as bad as you would think, especially with all the echo Goblins and and sometimes Skirk Prospector; you can remove Bridges at will. All that removal is also good against Affinity and Painter because, well, they play creatures. Elves is pretty fast but I dont think they can beat a resolved Sparksmith or a Pyrokinesis if you can follow it up with anything.
High Tide I'm not really worried about because of how expensive it is to build. This makes the deck pretty rare. Also, I think it is one of the decks to get hit hardest my Mental Misstep.
What would I play? Many control decks, which is basically Countertop, have fallen off the map. I don't really want to play Rishadan Ports anymore. I'd prolly play something like 18-20 Mountains and 4 Wastelands. This helps facilitate the Shattering Sprees in the sidebaord because they are pretty hard to get a lot of value out of them when you run 8 colorless lands. I'd move the Stingscourger to the sideboard depending on how many Emrakuls you expect. I don't know if I board for Storm Combo. At the SCG Opens its pretty popular so I don't think you can ignore it. I typically don't board more than 6 cards for storm which is usually some combo of Chalice and MBT. Dreadnought seems to be getting pretty popular so a singleton Tinkerer seems pretty solid and it can also eat SDT from the same deck.
I've been playing this deck since it was FCG. I've remember going through periods where this deck was dead, not placing, etc. Sometimes it was because of metagame shifts, new decks appearing, haters that wanna hate... the usual. I tend to ignore that feeling and I concentrate on finding trends in the metagame and try to adjust.
As for printing new Goblins I don't know why Wizards doesn't. There are always good Merfolk and Elf cards getting printed but Goblins hasn't gotten a staple in.. 5, 6 years? It's been awhile. I suspect it has a lot to do with Red just getting the shaft from the color pie but that's another conversation entirely.
I feel you on the Red front, man. Kor Firewalker? Seriously? I know it didn't make waves in Legacy, but it was a hell of an annoying card in standard.
Here's the list I'm working with, as of now. It may be familiar; it's Tacosnape's old list, when he first started advocating Winstigator.
Mana:
4x Auntie's Hovel
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Badlands
6x Mountain
4x Wasteland
Core:
[26]
Flex:
4x WW
2x Gempalm
1x Stingscourger
1x SGC
Side:
4x Pyrokinesis
4x Chalice
4x Leyline
3x Flex
Talking about Thread Density, i still prefer MWM over WI, especially if youre running Chieftains. It gives you 2 (virtually 3) 2/2 critters and Piledriver loves that too. Also MWM chumpblocks he still helps alot beating Zoo.
I dont understand the Rishadan Port hate. 4 are obv to much imo, but 2-3 are still great against a lot of decks.
MWM isn't a threat - he stalls up the ground for a bit, buts that's all, and he's a defensive card, which we don't need right now. WI is far better at playing an aggressive role, and is much better as a two-drop follow-up if (more likely when) they deal with our 1-drop. And right now, we need threats more than we need Port, and WI is a better threat than MWM.
I like the philosphy of going all-in aggro and for the kill. Warren Instigator should be a 4-of in such a deck. A connecting Instigator often means a win.
Warren Instigator was a pretty good shot at a Legacy Goblin staple if you ask me. Goblin Wardriver is another shot at a staple, it's just not good enough to make the cut. So to me, it seems like they are trying at least.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I like Skeggi and Vandalize's philosophy. I don't want to chump block in my games. I think it is better to counterattack if they attack you. Develop the board with creatures and make a scenario where they hold back creatures to block and you they can bounce/burn the blockers and make a productive attack. Instead of having MWM to block three times, how about have WI so if they attack, it is unfavorable? I think MWM is fine if everyone is playing zoo, I find there are many match ups where they are lackluster. Also, Warren Instigator is good, if not better than MWM, with chieftain too.
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