The reason to run Mental Misstep in Team America is clearly spotremoval, since Swords To Plowshares and Path To Exile really can ruin your day. Also, Force Of Will is rather bad against the more aggressive decks packing these cards, so you can now comfortably board out your Force Of Wills without having to be too afraid of your opponents' spotremoval. If these decks start running Mental Misstep as well, that's another thing, but between Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, Hymn To Tourach and all your other stuff, it will be rather hard for them to resolve two of these cards while still maintaining aggression. Apart from that I don't think Mental Misstep is too strong in Zoo anyway, so I'm not afraid of that.
This deck wasn't appearing in SCG top8 for a while, but Edgar Flores just got another top8 with it in Charlotte. I think the deck is still as good as it was, just people have moved on to other shiny toys and it is expensive so not many people play it.
Also has anyone considered or tested a Trinket Mage package in this deck like it is getting popular in RUG stifle builds? We already run Explosives, so could throw in a Basilisk Collar to race aggro easier, a Dreadnought as an extra threat, Pithing Needle in the SB... Seems pretty good to me, with I had someone to test with!
So after having tested Mental Misstep quite a bit I think it's fair to say that this deck benefits from it much more than other decks, save maybe folk which is just great for us. Anyways I have found that I often don't want to draw to many, or cut all the dazes either. This is the list I have been testing, and will probably run with for a while.
Team America -60
Creatures -8
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
Spells -29
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
2x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will
Planeswalkers - 2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments -1
1x Sylvan Library
Lands -20
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
Sideboard -15
2x Tormods Crypt
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Darkblast
1x Life from the Loam
1x Pernecious Deed
3x Krosan Grip
1x Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Engineered Explosives
The one issue I have is not having the 4th removal spell main deck. The way I figure with Snuff Out + Misstep that is a lot of life to pay. You are often Snuffing Out there turn 1 play anyways which Misstep can potentially counter. I also over compensated with removal in the sideboard. If anyone sees a cut for maybe a Dismember or a 3rd Go for the Throat I would like to hear it.
Kira has been really good, and with the inclusion of Misstep, it makes it that much harder for opponents to kill our threats.
I used to run two Libraries and really like the card in this deck with all the fetches so I have a hard time cutting the last one.
I did cut a fetch for a second Bayou, because 1. I hate loosing to Wasteland, and 2. It helps cast my sideboard cards more easily.
Sideboard is largely for my meta seeing lots of aggro and graveyard based decks. If I bring this to the Grand Prix I would probably cut something for a second Llawan. Any feedback would be much appreciated!
Edit: Moved to Kira to the board for the 4th misstep. It's that good. Found Loam to be awesome in the board too. Still would like to find enough room for another go for the throat/ snuff out / dismember. Possibly cutting a Daze or Misstep.
Would also need to find room in the board for a 2nd Lllawan for an SCG open / Providence.
Edit #2 5/26 : with the meta being so control oriented I have put Jace in the main, and cut a stifle. I still want it to protect my own lands so I did not cut them all together. Thinking about cutting a snuff out for a pulse to deal with all the jaces right now. would also like to find room in the board for Null Rod for MUD/Affinity/Painted Stone/ Thopter Decks.
Last edited by Worm1605; 05-26-2011 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Update
My build is very similar to yours, and I share your problems fitting in everything now that MM is printed. I went to 3 stifle, but I'm not happy about it. That's essentially the whole problem. You end up having to make a decision like:
Which of the following do you not want to run 4-of main?
Hymn to Tourach
Daze
Ponder
Mental Misstep
Stifle
Targeted Removal
Answer: Ideally, they are all 4-ofs :(
Here's where I go on a rant about MM, and why it should be a 4-of main.
The issue for me with Mental Misstep in Team America is a philosophical one. I can't think of a deck that it fits in more perfectly strategy-wise. The whole goal of Team America is keeping the game state on turns 1 and 2 as long as possible, especially for the opponent. I can't say 'no other deck', but maybe I'm alright to say that few other decks are hurt on such a strategic level when they lose the die roll. Nearly our entire strategy breaks down. Daze and Stifle turn off on the most crucial turn - the first. Vial sneaks in there, a fetchland actually gets them a land, noble hierarch hits play, the surprisingly relevant cursecatcher lands, lackey / nacatl / welder must be snuffed out, etc. Almost all of these terrible situations share a common thread: they cost 1.
Mental Misstep is like dice rolling insurance. I agree with a poster earlier about MM doing completely different things than Daze, but not usually on T1. This early they're both effectively a hard counter - and later on they branch out into equally useful avenues; MM for countering Swords / lategame ponders / etc, and Daze for punishing the greedy / slowing them down by playing around it / winning FoW wars.
Agree that this deck benefits a lot from mental misstep. as for what to cut in the SB, I think you could cut one of the graveyard hate cards if you were taking it to a grand prix. I think TA is naturally strong against most graveyard strategies anyway, especially with misstep around to counter their putrid imp or careful study or aether vial. Probably a nihil spellbomb.
The big problem I'm having right now is coming up with an exact counterspell package. Realistically most TA decks will run 8-12 counterspells, consisting of:
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Daze
Mental Misstep
4 FoW is the only one that is pretty much a given, coming up with the other 4-8 slots is the rough part. My current train of thought is that I like to tap out turns 1-3, playing:
1: Stifle, Ponder, Brainstorm, Targeted discard
2: Goyf, Confidant (if you roll that way), Hymn
3: Terravore, Tombstalker
The most important cards to counter happen turns 1-4, so to me, using counters that require mana will require me to make a choice of tapping out to play my stuff, or holding back to counter. For this reason, I intend to playtest initially with all "free" counters, though not sure yet exactly the numbers of each. I'm thinking right now 4 FoW, 4 MM, 2-3 Daze. This allows you to still tap out for the first 3-4 turns and apply massive pressure, but still have something to stop any bombs they have for you. On top of that, there's nothing worse than making the decision to hold off turn 1 discard while holding some sort of conditional countermagic, only to discover that what they play on their turn can't be targetted with the counter you have in hand. You're basically giving them a free turn this way.
//Creatures: 11 (11)
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Terra
2 Kira
//Land 21 (32)
//Disruption 21(53)
4 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze/Mental Misstep
3 Stifle
4 Go for the Throat
//Draw 7 (60)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
This is a list that i just came up with while talking with a friend. Kira basically allows you to keep counters that would normally counter removal. A threat and tempo creator. I'm pretty sure this is far from optimal, and i could easily see:
-3 Terravore
+3 MM/Daze Opposite what i end up playing.
And just running 9 Threats. I'm not sure how much i like this list, as the previous list i was tinkering with was playing Bob.
Just won myself 3 byes for Providence with this deck. Here's the list I was running:
Creatures -9
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Tombstalker
Spells -28
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mental Misstep
2x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
4x Force of Will
Artifacts -2
2x Engineered Explosives
Lands -21
4x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
Sideboard -15
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Darkblast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Duress
1x Perish
I beat Merfolk, Mono-G, Grixis Control and Mono-Red Goblins to go 4-0-2, then beat Goblins with black splash in top 8. Really liked the addition of Mental Missteps and didn't have to side them out once during the day, though there was a Chalice Aggro deck in the top 8 I wouldn't have needed them against. Didn't miss the Dazes, Library and extra removal I cut. I added a Clique to my list and really liked having a 9th threat. I almost lost a game to goblins again where I couldn't draw a single creature in 20-25 cards, which seems to happen every tournament but I don't want to get flooded in creatures either. Thought the sideboard was very solid as well. I'll probably run something nearly identical in Providence unless there's substantial evidence that this deck isn't good anymore.
Thought i would share my experience with this most awesome of decks.
Ran the following list to a 7-2 finish at Bazaar of Moxen with a loss to Landstill (the eventual winner) and dredge.
Creatures
4xTarmogoyf
4xTombstalker
Counters
4xForce
4xMisstep
3xDaze
Disruption
4xStifle
4xHymn To Tourach
Draw
4xPonder
4xBrainstorm
1xLoam
Removal
2xGo for the Throat
2xSnuff Out
Lands
4xUnderground Sea
2xTropical Island
1xBayou
9xFetch
4xWasteland
Sideboard
2xGhastly Demise
1xGo For the Throat
1xPulse
2xJace
2xSower
1xLife from the Loam
2xPernicious Deeds.
2xSpell Pierce
2xMassacre
The sideboard is the beauty of the list letting you transform into a board control deck against midrange and aggro strategies where you tempo mainboard is quite terrible, particularly when they board into spot removal. The hymns let you transform quite nicely. The massacres were a concession to the tons of GW we saw at the trial the day before and should probably just have been the gravyard hate we used to have.
It is quite noticeable that Team America definately has the potential to play control in many matchups if you play it conservatively and board accordingly.
On a more general note sower and life from the loam where awesome all day with the loam acting in the predict slot as a value card with occaisional blowout potential. I would definately run it again, the card gives so much value for so little space in the list.
Last edited by Goddik; 05-16-2011 at 01:16 AM.
@Goddik
Are you really running no removal main deck? And 24 lands?
My strategy was also to board control after SB against merfolk and goblins and it worked quite well. I need to test more to see if I wasn't just lucky though. I don't run Jace and Sower in the board as with only 21 lands and a lot of decks packing Wasteland it's hard to get to 4 mana unless you're already winning or flooded and in those cases Jace won't help that much.
Not a serious post, but I would love to see someone pull out some wins with a orginal list (the 1st incarnation) - 4 Thoughtseize +4 Mental Misstep. 16 free spell sounds like a lot of fun^^
BBB
New Team America player here. I've read the first page primer but still am looking for some answers to questions that have sprung to mind. What's the history of the deck? Why is it called Team America? It feels good to be playing one of the more expensive decks if not the most expensive deck in Legacy (besides the hilarious yet surprising result for the lone Battle of the Wits deck).
I've converted my old WUG Threshold - mongoose, werebear, etc (I know it's ancient) into TA. Is there anything I should be looking out for when playing this deck? Do you have any sideboarding tips or general playing tips vs. certain matchups? What do you side in/side out against aggro/control/combo? I do admit, I haven't read all 65 pages of this thread but do plan on getting around to it soon!
For my first version of TA, I've tailored my deck to Zamussels' decklist above as I do not have any spare Jaces for this deck. And do agree on the distribution of lands, creatures, threats, draw, and counters. However, I may turn that Vendilion clique into a Kira or Phrexyian Dreadnaught depending on my meta. And 2 removal spells main seems a bit dangerous but SB does make up for it.
Any comments or guidelines would be much appreciated!
@P-AiR
Most of the answers you are looking for are somewhere in this thread so I'm sure you'll find them. Start reading backwards from here and stop when you get to the Survival of the Fittest metagame. Not sure Kira is a good choice to replace Clique since you have Misstep to protect from Swords, and what else is gonna target and kill your guys? Dreadnought and Stifle can be countered by Misstep, setting you up for a blowout and I think I would only run a lone Dreadnought in a Trinket Mage package, which I've actually considered for this deck but apparently no one else did, or it's a really bad idea (see a few posts or pages previous).
I consider that I have 4 removal spells as I include Engineered Explosives. I used to run 2 Snuff Out maindeck but have cut them for Misstep. They were mainly there against Lackey and other problematic early guys anyway.
I could post what my sideboard plan is, but it is largely dependent on specific builds I play against and the playstyle of the opponent. For example, if he is horrible and keeps using fetchlands on his turn when I have mana untapped even if he isn't about to cast anything, I am more likely to keep Stifle in even if there aren't many other juicy targets. Also I haven't tested enough with the deck to tell if my plans are actually optimal or close to it, even if they have been working very well so far.
@Zamussel
of course not ;) I am just tired, the list has been edited now with the lacking 4 removals
As for how to play the deck, my big breakthroug was when i started to stall playing my creatures. You are a tempo-control deck, not an agressive deck like the original sinkhole builds and old-school canadian.
Against opponents with spot removal and no/little preassure i generally wait to play my creatures untill i have hymned/stifled/wasted/drawn misstep to avoid getting blown out by swords to plowshares, i even go so far as to brainstorm them away for reactive gas and certainly board some ammount of creatures out in many matchups were people board in stuff like submerges and paths.
Committing a tombstalker to the board only to see it submerged really sucks, it is generally better to hymn him a few times first.
I'm relatively new to TA, played it in 3 or 4 GPTs to this point, and I'm taking it to Providence. The first several events I played in were 4 Goyf/4Stalker lists, and this past wednesday (playing in an event that didn't matter right before misstep came out) I gave 4Bob/4Goyf/2Stalkers a try and loved it, although the Stalkers were terrifying, and I did end up losing 8 life to one, although I still won that game.
That said, Does anyone have thoughts on Chris VanMeter's list that won the open yesterday? 4 Confidants AND 4 Tombstalkers seems . . . . scary. Every upkeep is an adventure. I know a lot of people insist Bob has no place in the deck, and I'm not here to say whether they're right or wrong, I'm just interested in thoughts on it.
I had good luck playing the original style list with no Bobs, UNTIL I came up against the mirror when that person had Bob and I couldn't counter it. Playing the tempo game, this deck just loses to confidant active for a few turns (unless I'm just bad at Magic, which is possible)
So . . . tl;dr version: What do people think about 4 Stalkers and 4 Confidants, and if you don't think Confidant is worth it, how are you dealing with the mirror vs Bob?
J
I'm surprised at how little discussion there is on this thread in general and about the *3* Team America inspired decks in the top 8 of SCG yesterday, especially since all 3 of them have interesting particularities I'm almost wondering if a lot of regulars are planning on playing this at Providence and are keeping their testing a secret.
I was wondering if Chris Van Meter's deck had a transcription error since it had 62 cards and 4 Confidant and 4 Stalkers seemed a lot. It has been corrected to 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf, 2 Stalker. The deck still seems high risk to me with 4 Force of Will and 2 Jace as other high CC cards. Also he's not even running Ponder which can help stack the deck for Bob. He is running a singleton Library though...
Jacobson has also cut some Ponders in favor of more discard (2 Thoughtseize and 1 Inquisition), which seems like a lot of life loss in addition to Confidant, fetchlands and Mental Misstep. I always feel like I'm taking a lot of damage with my deck with fetches, Snuff Out and Force of Will, and now with Misstep. Another interesting choice is 2 Deed maindeck (he has 1 Explosives in the board).
Flores is running a more traditional build and more similar to mine (no Confidant). I admit I bumped the Deed count in my SB to 3 after seeing his build, and noticed a lot of Deeds in the top decks at the previous SCG open. He cut the Stifles entirely, which is quite interesting and I'm not sure I agree with that. He has 1 maindeck Darkblast which I've considered, and is also still running Snuff Out, which didn't seem necessary to me with Mental Misstep and Go for the Throat to get rid of early guys. He also has 3 Revoker in the SB, probably mostly for Jace. It's as if he knew that Jace decks were going to be popular at this event!
As for my deck, I think I'll cut the Diabolic Edict and one other card, probably Pulse, for 2 Revokers.
@Jeff: I don't know if Confidant is worth it, but it certainly changes the dynamic of the deck a lot, and I don't want to throw them into a well-tuned deck without testing what other changes I need to incorporate them so I don't play them. Go for the Throat, Explosives, and Darkblast after sideboarding all get rid of him.
His version run 2 tombstalkers and not 4 in addition to 4 goyf and 4 bob.
With confidants and 22 lands 3rd Jace should be better suited here than sylvan.
OK, that makes more sense. I missed the typo and thought he actually had 4 stalkers. 2 seems OK. When I ran 2 last week I was terrified of flipping them, but they were really, really good in play, in a way VClique or Terravore just can't be.
I'm still testing, but so far I think I'm in agreement with nightwolf on this one, Jace just isn't that good against combo or the aggro decks in the format, and he doesn't seem that great against Merfolk, so why do I want him maindeck? I'd rather have the 2 Jaces in the board and bring them in for the attrition matchups. Of course, he was doing that with 4 stalkers in the deck and no Bobs, but the principals might be the same. I'm just a little to green here to figure it out for sure. I really do feel like I'm going to win every game I play Bob turn 2 though, which isn't something any other card in the deck can do.
True, but EE on 2 means I better not have goyfs or libraries out before I do it, and do I really want to bring in Darkblast when it only kills 4 cards in their entire deck (6 if they run Clique)? I really need my removal to kill Bob AND goyf, so it basically ends up being Dismember (some of the time), Pulse (which is bad tempo, using a 3 mana sorcery to kill their 2 drops), or GftT (which I like a lot, but depending on the popularity of the metalworker deck I don't know that I can overdo it)Originally Posted by Zamussels
All that said, I agree with you, but finding the right mix of removal in this deck for a given meta is really hard.
J
@Jeff: Anecdotal evidence but it does illustrate how good Darkblast is in the mirror match. My opponent is beating me in the air with Tombstalker while the ground is Goyfstalled. He's at something like 2-3 life, having drawn a few cards with Library. I draw Darkblast, attack with Goyf and kill his. Next turn dredge it and kill his Tombstalker. I love Darkblast so much I side it in even if they don't have Bob. (Yes it's true that GftT would have done the job just as well in this situation, or even Submerge but it was still awesome).
Good call. I always forget Darkblast trumps goyfstalls
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