I'm probably the worst Merfolk player in the world, but I was under the impression that Dredge was a decent matchup for Merfolk. Then add in 4 Mental Missteps and it should be pretty heavy in favor of the fish.Originally Posted by Malakai
GW has a very solid Merfolk matchup. It has a pretty decent matchup against the field as well.
Most people rarely play against competent dredge players. This is an idea that gets thrown around for a lot of decks, but it's far more often the case with dredge. I've run dredge a few times myself, and although I could run game ones perfectly, I know I likely made major mistakes in the boarded games. That said, nearly all of the people I beat remarked that they usually beat dredge, yet our games weren't close.
Forbiddian is correct about GW; as underpowered as that deck feels, it can generate a lot of wins.
Most people rarely play against competent dredge players. This is an idea that gets thrown around for a lot of decks, but it's far more often the case with dredge. I've run dredge a few times myself, and although I could run game ones perfectly, I know I likely made major mistakes in the boarded games. That said, nearly all of the people I beat remarked that they usually beat dredge, yet our games weren't close.
Forbiddian is correct about GW; as underpowered as that deck feels, it can generate a lot of wins. [Remind anyone of anything?]
While this is true, it's also true that Relic Of Progenitus paired up with a decent amount of countermagic is pretty strong against Dredge. When they know you have Relic, they can't really slowdredge, but it also happens more often than not that you can counter their first (sometimes only) discard outlet. If you then also have a Relic, you just win. This is especially true with Mental Misstep, as you now have twice as much counters for their outlets on the draw.
Apart from that, I wouldn't really metagame against Dredge, as I haven't played against the deck in tournaments in ages now.
Oh and by the way, Cursecatcher is really strong against Dredge.
While this is true, it's also true that Relic Of Progenitus paired up with a decent amount of countermagic is pretty strong against Dredge. When they know you have Relic, they can't really slowdredge, but it also happens more often than not that you can counter their first (sometimes only) discard outlet. If you then also have a Relic, you just win. This is especially true with Mental Misstep, as you now have twice as much counters for their outlets on the draw.
Apart from that, I wouldn't really metagame against Dredge, as I haven't played against the deck in tournaments in ages now.
Oh and by the way, Cursecatcher is really strong against Dredge.
Which GW deck are you speaking of?
Malakai: What memories are you implying?
Meanwhile, I also tried some decks and Dredge was one of them. While certainly capable of winning, I don't think Dredge is good enough to qualify as a "good" deck against Merfolk (self-implosion, outlet countered, protected Relic, Cursecatcher removing Bridges, etc). Even if better play would turn the matchup more favorable, I don't have the talent/time to do it, so Dredge is not an option for me.
With MM in the picture, the Goblin matchup got a lot better for Merfolk, so Goblins are not a good choice imo.
So far, fast Zoo seems like the only deck that can really hold its own against the fishy menace...
I need to test Junk, but isn't that deck quite vulnerable to Wasteland and Back to Basics?
Green and Taxes. They run removal through swords and Mangara (recurrable), tougher creatures (avenger, goyf, qasali), ways to bypass standstill (stoneforge mystic, vial), combat tricks (flickerwisp, mother of runes) and equipment (Sword of Fire and Ice/jitte). Their manabase is strong enough as they are two colours and they are not blue.
Matchup against GnT is terrible from my extensive playtesting.
I would assume they are referring to the deck with vials, green fatties, mother and stoneforge package.
depends on the build, I'm sure they can fetch basics and they have mox. I don't think any deck is vulnerable to back to basicsI need to test Junk, but isn't that deck quite vulnerable to Wasteland and Back to Basics?
Green and Taxes. They run removal through swords and Mangara (recurrable), tougher creatures (avenger, goyf, qasali), ways to bypass standstill (stoneforge mystic, vial), combat tricks (flickerwisp, mother of runes) and equipment (Sword of Fire and Ice/jitte). Their manabase is strong enough as they are two colours and they are not blue.
Matchup against GnT is terrible from my extensive playtesting.
double post =/
AFAIK, this isn't true.Planning on using cursecatcher is difficult as well as once they get bridges in the yard they typically aren't casting anything counterable until they therapy or just go for the dread return in which case they have zombies before catcher removes the bridges so it isn't a big deal.
When you play and pay for DR or Therapy flashback and you are given priority, Bridges token triggers go on the stack, which will be on top of DR/Therapy on the stack. Those triggers must be resolved, and when you pass priority to your opponent (who has a Cursecatcher), they can sacrifice Cursecatcher to try to counter DR/Therapy. Sacrificing Cursecatcher triggers your Bridges' RFG clause. So, the RFG triggers will be on top of Bridge token triggers on the stack, and when you resolve the RFG triggers, you won't have Bridges in the GY to get tokens when you resolve the Bridge token triggers.
Note that Bridge explicitly says:
"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."
If Bridge isn't in the GY at the time of you resolve those Bridge token triggers, then you don't get tokens.
Cursecatcher is very good in this matchup. Unlike DR/Therapy, Ichorid's self-sacrificing does let you play around Cursecatcher (but slow rolling like in this manner isn't always possible).
peace,
4eak
If anyone is planning on playing the 5ks they should consider Dredge a deck, It has something like 6 top 16s this year. That is the most of any one archetype.
Junk is good against Merfolk, 8 targeted removal, Hymn/Seize and Bob are all doing things Merfolk doesn't like. Wasteland can be played around with Moxen and Basics. Lands or Enchantress is unfavorable. GW Maverick is also strong with Vial->Mystic->Sofi/Jitte, and none of these decks have islands so Merfolk can't evade and go for Lethal.
I know it's been eons since we've talked about this but would running Tidal Warrior be justifiable again over Cursecatcher?
There are currently less blue decks to prey on. Tidal Warrior can also enable minor land disruption.
Anyone?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I tried to like Tidal Warrior when I first started playing Merfolk and never liked it much. I would be open to do some more testing again because it does seem like it could have potential, but my guess would be that cursecatcher will still outshine him due to being so good against combo/control. Plus no one really knows, but I suspect that mental misstep will help blue control out a lot. We already have seen some new/ish blue decks in the last couple of starcity events.... Just don't know about traditional countertop.
I also think Mental Misstep will make the most in Merfolk by being good in our combo/control matchups, meaning cursecatcher will still have a place.
its not so much that the match up to Green and Taxes is terrible, its that the matchup to Stoneforge Mystic and Swords/Jitte is terrible. I got totally blown out by 3 Bant lists that featured Stoneforge and swords/jitte the other weekend.
Even regular Death and Taxes has a good matchup due to the above cards.
I've used Back to Basics pretty extensively in my sideboard. It doesn't completely wreck any deck, but anything multi-colored (especially 3+ colors) really suffers when you drop it while they have a few duals in play.
Don't forget - It also stops man-lands like Mutavault, Mishra's Factory, etc. from activating more than once. That's saved me many times!
Regarding Tidal Warrior - Doesn't seem that great to me. In order for it to be useful, three conditions must be met:
1. They're don't already have an island
2. You must have Tidal Warrior in play without summoning sickness.
3. You must have a Lord of Atlantis in play.
Once all these have been met, you still have to have another merfolk in play without summoning sickness. The chances of all of these conditions lining up seem to me to be significantly lower than the chances that a 1/1 that can be sac'd to Daze will be useful.
`\(O.o)/` YMMV
Last edited by thecrav; 05-10-2011 at 09:39 PM. Reason: bad tagging
I've been testing Reef Shaman in curecatcher's place. So far it has been very good no matter when I drop it. In the early game I can wasteland their land, and then turn the other one into some basic that's outside the deck's colors during their upkeep. In the late game it can give you the ability to islandwalk any deck, which that fact has won me many matches versus goblins and zoo. In the mirror you can shut off opposing MV and protect your own from being wasted. Lastly, in the event you only have an island and non-basics, shaman can allow you to play your double blue spells as well.
Eh, I don't like it. The 0 power makes me instantly dismiss it in favor of Tidal Warrior, who is in turn dismissed in favor of Cursecatcher.
I would like to talk about "standstill --> yes or no" again:
you have daze, MM and FoW (you only want to use this rarely on their 1-2 drop in order to drop standstill) to get rid of early drops (with MM only countering 1 drops), but standstill isnt always a card that takes u automatically to the late game if u have some kind of beater. some arguments:
1. standstill is a dead card if the board is not in ur favor and the opponent can react with removal to make the board position inferior to us.
2. standstill is often a dead card in the mirror, except u gained enough tempo to force ur opponent to break it, which means that in the 1st game of the mirror we have the weaker maindeck.
3. merfolk has a very strong early game with daze, cursecatcher, vial, MM, fow so situation where u have a inferior board position should rarely occur,
4. standstill also helps thanks to our strong early game against decks like canadian, thopter and most of the times against even against zoo to create too much cardadvantage for them to beat - against zoo it could be dangerous and on the draw u should 100% board them out against zoo, on the play u should be able to get advantages of it most of the time
5. standstill steals tempo and makes our counter less effective in the lategame. this is true if the deck we play against does have board sweeper or cards like ens.bridge or humilty which they cant resolve in the early turns. but often our opponent cant wait that long if we have a beater (which we normally should have) and in that case we dont lose too much tempo, in all situations where your opponent has to break it within the next 1-3 turns standstill generates us enough CA to have enough resources to "out 1vs1" his answers. in situations where the controldeck can wait 8 turns of "draw-go" we normally have a overall disadvantage even with +2 cardadvantage (3drawn minus 1standstill)
6. standstill gives as more potential nuts-draws (f.e. vial--> standstill with a few creatures on our hand) which should win the game through the fact that (if correctly played) we simply have more cards than him.
7. bad players often play wrong against standstil --> value
i also heard gerryT talk on the scg.stream about that standstill+MM will be very strong if ur deck plays creatures, so as far as i can imagine i am a fan of standstill at the moment. but i would love to hear ur constructive oppinions. i will test this deck at the bazaar of moxen event in annecy in a few days and i still need about 20 points to raise my total rating above the 1950 mark to qualify myself for nationals :-) so for fast help i would be very thankful :-)
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