[Deck] Belcher

[thatoneguy]

If i can't get a hold of any lions eye diamonds, what could I put in untill I could? I realize the card is very important, but I can not find any, anywhere.

[perm]

Has anyone tried chancellor of the annex? If you play first it guarantees a win if you can go off.

[evanmartyr]

If i can't get a hold of any lions eye diamonds, what could I put in untill I could? I realize the card is very important, but I can not find any, anywhere.

I would just take out Burning Wishes, put in your EtW from the sideboard, and play as many Gitaxian Probes and Street Wraiths as you had open slots. Cutting down on win conditions and explosive mana sucks, but if you're going to take out one of the more important accelerators, I'd say ditch the thing they're usually combined with and shrink the deck as much as possible with cyclers. Obviously, you'd want four Probes before you topped the list off with Wraiths.

It might fizzle a lot, and you'll be going off blind a lot, just hoping you'll draw into the acceleration you need, but there aren't really any better replacements. Let us know how it works out :D

[4eak]

If i can't get a hold of any lions eye diamonds, what could I put in untill I could? I realize the card is very important, but I can not find any, anywhere.

// Initial Mana Sources - 21
1 Stomping Ground/Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

// Conditional Mana Sources - 20
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Tinder Wall

// Trix - 8
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose

// Wish and Win-Cons - 11
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher

It might fizzle a lot, and you'll be going off blind a lot, just hoping you'll draw into the acceleration you need, but there aren't really any better replacements. Let us know how it works out :D

It goes for EtW more often. It can consistently get 4-6 mana, but it is very hard to get 7 mana in the opener. When you do play Charbelcher, most of the time you'll have to wait another turn or two before you can activate it.

Losing LED sucks. But, the deck still does play well despite lacking that +3 mana boost.

Has anyone tried chancellor of the annex? If you play first it guarantees a win if you can go off.

A player with two active free counterspells could still stop you. Mental Misstep and FoW, FoW and FoW, or MM and MM. Not a guarantee, and I'm thinking it just isn't worth the slot.



peace,
4eak

[evanmartyr]

You know that's a good point. Never mind about cutting Burning Wish.

Edit: Just did a pretty tedious search through all the possible win conditions that cost less than 7 on gatherer and came across Chandra Ablaze. I'm not sure how great she is as a replacement for belcher in budget lists without LED, but imagine this line of play.

Turn 1: Acceleration, Chandra. Use her -2: you hand likely increases in size, your opponent mulligans to three.
Turn 2: Start nuking creatures (if there are creatures) or your opponent.
Turn X: Cast all your nutty acceleration just sitting unused in your graveyard and storm out.

Maybe not the best replacement, but it might be an option?

[Beatusnox]

You know that's a good point. Never mind about cutting Burning Wish.

Edit: Just did a pretty tedious search through all the possible win conditions that cost less than 7 on gatherer and came across Chandra Ablaze. I'm not sure how great she is as a replacement for belcher in budget lists without LED, but imagine this line of play.

Turn 1: Acceleration, Chandra. Use her -2: you hand likely increases in size, your opponent mulligans to three.
Turn 2: Start nuking creatures (if there are creatures) or your opponent.
Turn X: Cast all your nutty acceleration just sitting unused in your graveyard and storm out.

Maybe not the best replacement, but it might be an option?

I disagree, if you can build up to six mana, odds are you could look at your hand and pass into a mana source for belcher from the top deck anyway.

And actually, to amend my list from yesterday, I would drop the manamorphose and add the probes, keep 4 probes and 3 wraiths just to try to have more digging.

Also, I know it takes away from the explosiveness but some of the worse lotuses that have been printed could be used as a temporary replacement for LED if you plan on getting them.

[Final Fortune]

I'm more or less certain the "cycler" slot is just Chancellor of the Tangle's place, because regardless of whether or not he's an awful top deck, he's a +1 initial, uncounterable mana source and filters G into R thru' Tinder Wall to start the Desperate/Pyretic Ritual chains, and drawing Chancellor of the Tangle and Chrome Mox in the same hand is the nut high since it's virtual card advantage.

[evanmartyr]

I'm more or less certain the "cycler" slot is just Chancellor of the Tangle's place, because regardless of whether or not he's an awful top deck, he's a +1 initial, uncounterable mana source and filters G into R thru' Tinder Wall to start the Desperate/Pyretic Ritual chains, and drawing Chancellor of the Tangle and Chrome Mox in the same hand is the nut high since it's virtual card advantage.

I hate that card, but I'm fairly certain that you're right.

EDIT: Even if you're wrong, and he doesn't straight up take the spot of Manamorphose/Probe, he might be a good replacement for Elvish Spirit Guide. I just worry about replacing Manamorphose with anything, since it's incredibly versatile in filtering your Spirit Guides into the correct color you need to smooth out opening hands.

I disagree, if you can build up to six mana, odds are you could look at your hand and pass into a mana source for belcher from the top deck anyway.

And actually, to amend my list from yesterday, I would drop the manamorphose and add the probes, keep 4 probes and 3 wraiths just to try to have more digging.

Also, I know it takes away from the explosiveness but some of the worse lotuses that have been printed could be used as a temporary replacement for LED if you plan on getting them.

What exactly would you suggest, since LED is generally considered the one worse lotus that exists. If there were more, we'd play them.

[Beatusnox]

I hate that card, but I'm fairly certain that you're right.

EDIT: Even if you're wrong, and he doesn't straight up take the spot of Manamorphose/Probe, he might be a good replacement for Elvish Spirit Guide. I just worry about replacing Manamorphose with anything, since it's incredibly versatile in filtering your Spirit Guides into the correct color you need to smooth out opening hands.



What exactly would you suggest, since LED is generally considered the one worse lotus that exists. If there were more, we'd play them.

For those who cannot get LED, You could play Lotus Bloom or Lotus Blossom Neither are as powerful as LED here, but could be used to a similar effect if are losing explosiveness already due to losing the LED.

[evanmartyr]

You'd be losing so much explosiveness I'm not sure it would matter anymore. Assuming you play it turn 1, it takes until what, turn 4 for Lotus Bloom to result in mana gain? And Lotus Blossom is significantly worse, given that it takes as long to net you +1 mana, AND it costs mana to begin with. Would you play Pyretic Ritual if it gave you the mana after 3 turns?

[defector]

In view of the new set, I am going to give this a try. I still hate this glass cannon piece of shite, but this makes it at least less painful to play. Losing manamorphose was like having a splinter pulled from my paw. I'll take this my little tourney in two weeks and then get back to you guys with results.

1 Land Belcher

Mana-46-
Taiga X1
Land Grant X4
Lion’s Eye Diamond X4
Lotus Petal X4
Desperate Ritual X4
Rite of Flame X4
Seething Song X4
Elvish Spirit Guide X4
Simian Spirit Guide X4
Tinder Wall X4
Pyretic Ritual X4
Chrome Mox X3
Mox Opal X1

Win Conditions-11-
Goblin Charbelcher X4
Burning Wish X4
Empty the Warrens X3

Draw Engine-4-
Gitaxian Probe X4

Sideboard-15-
Empty the Warrens X1
Reverent Silence X1
Diminishing Returns X1
Pyroclasm X1
Hull Breach X1
Shattering Spree X3
Guttural Response X3
Xantid Swarm X4

[thefringthing]

So it looks like from the stock list you've gone -4 Manamorphose, +4 Gitaxian Probe,-1 Chrome Mox, +1 Mox Opal. Not sure I agree on either account. I think I may be putting the Git Probe in as a wishboard card, though.

[evanmartyr]

Mox Opal X1

Whut.

Gitaxian Probe X4

So, you're replacing the best imprint the deck has, the only way for it to filter green into red and red into green, with a cantrip? Manamorphose has downsides, sure, but I'm fairly certain the mana fixing's better than the very occasionally relevant Peek; much of the time your plays won't change all that much based on what's in your opponent's hand.

EDIT: I'll be ditching an REB for a Probe in the SB though. Occasionally I suspect it may be relevant to race somebody. Free storm and all that.

[Beatusnox]

Whut.



So, you're replacing the best imprint the deck has, the only way for it to filter green into red and red into green, with a cantrip? Manamorphose has downsides, sure, but I'm fairly certain the mana fixing's better than the very occasionally relevant Peek; much of the time your plays won't change all that much based on what's in your opponent's hand.

I slightly disagree on the Manamorphose, they are both free if uncountered, but if manamorphose is countered, you lose two mana, whereas the Probe only loses two life, and if they are burning a counterspell on the probe, its one less counterspell they have to stop the win conditions. And while this deck is a glass cannon, it is by no means a bad deck.

I do agree on the Mox Opal thing though, Unless you couldn't get the chrome mox, and even then, its a poor substitute.

[kicks_422]

Who would counter Manamorphose?

Sure, Gitaxian probe lets you see your opponent's hand. Why, would you change your line of play according to what they have? Belcher has its options limited to its opening 7. You're not an interactive deck, so why care what they have in their hand?

[Beatusnox]

Who would counter Manamorphose?

Sure, Gitaxian probe lets you see your opponent's hand. Why, would you change your line of play according to what they have? Belcher has its options limited to its opening 7. You're not an interactive deck, so why care what they have in their hand?

Countering manamorphose if the deck is going off it can set us from 2 mana, to zero, and bridging from 0-2 again can be taxing on the deck.

In game one, if you are on the play, some decks may not want you to see their opening hand.

Beyond that, Seeing what is in their hand can change how you play. If they have too many answers in your hand, you may not go off right away and slow roll into the ability to have more than one win Condition, its not ideal, but it is possible.

[kicks_422]

Seriously?

It would be better to counter the spell that would bridge from 2 mana to 3 mana or more (in case there's a Spirit Guide to reach 4 for Warrens), not Manamorphose. You're assuming that your opponents don't know that?

So you open this hand: Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tinder Wall. That's an EtW for 14 Turn 1 right there. If you see an Engineered Explosives and Force of Will in their hand after you Probe (or even just the EE), you're seriously going to try to wait to draw into Belcher?

With or without that Probe, that's already a loss right there for you. Shuffle them up and go to Game 2.

[kicks_422]

Seriously?

It would be better to counter the spell that would bridge from 2 mana to 3 mana or more (in case there's a Spirit Guide to reach 4 for Warrens), not Manamorphose. You're assuming that your opponents don't know that?

So you open this hand: Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tinder Wall. That's an EtW for 14 Turn 1 right there. If you see an Engineered Explosives and Force of Will in their hand after you Probe (or even just the EE), you're seriously going to try to wait to draw into Belcher?

With or without that Probe, that's already a loss right there for you. Shuffle them up and go to Game 2.

[evanmartyr]

So you open this hand: Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tinder Wall. That's an EtW for 14 Turn 1 right there. If you see an Engineered Explosives and Force of Will in their hand after you Probe (or even just the EE), you're seriously going to try to wait to draw into Belcher?

With or without that Probe, that's already a loss right there for you. Shuffle them up and go to Game 2.

While I agree that seeing that is bad, it may allow you to play differently, in that you could hold an LED in your hand to jump start a second combo attempt after dumping 12 goblins. If you're going first, they're probably taking 12 damage from your attack, and if you're going second, maybe you'll draw a EtW or something that would allow you to Burning Wish for Goblin War Strike. I dunno. I agree with your point though.

Until we can either support Mox Opal consistently, or they print a new mana source that filters mana as efficiently as Manamorphose, I don't see myself dropping it from the MD.

[Namida]

While I agree that seeing that is bad, it may allow you to play differently, in that you could hold an LED in your hand to jump start a second combo attempt after dumping 12 goblins. If you're going first, they're probably taking 12 damage from your attack, and if you're going second, maybe you'll draw a EtW or something that would allow you to Burning Wish for Goblin War Strike. I dunno. I agree with your point though.

Honestly, I think it shouldn't change your play because you should be holding that LED anyway. Turn one, 12 goblins kills as fast as 14 Goblins unless they have three one mana spells that can remove goblins.