Doran, and other 'low power' beefcakes

[optml]

Dear Legacy community,

Apologies if there is an identical or similar deck posted; I had a look and none seem resemble it.

This is a deck idea I had to take advantage of Doran, the Siege Tower. Although I have seen other decks using him as an aggro creature, I have never seen abuse of his passive ability. My (experimental) build aims to take advantage of it!

Here is a preliminary list I have compiled; thoughts and comments are welcome guys & gals.

Creatures

4x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Tireless Tribe
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Angelic Protector
2x Nomads en-kor
3x Treefolk Harbinger
2x Daru Spiritualist
2x Dark Confidant

Instants / Sorceries

2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Iron Will
2x Worldly Tutor
4x Eladamri's Call
2x Thoughtseize
2x Vindicate
2x Unearth

Artifacts / Enchantments

1x Slagwurm Armor
1x Shuko


Lands

4x Murmuring Bosk (It's made for Doran)
Mana fixing duals / pains and fetches.
Probably aim for 22 or so lands.

Possibilities

Conclave Blessing
Defensive Maneuvers
Shield Mate
Land fixing cards such as harrow

The idea is to get Doran out as speedy as possible, and hit them with undercosted beefcakes. A little synergy comes from Angelic Protector and Nomads en-kor, once Doran is out to play, to get a ridiculously big attacker. This can also be done with bouncing shuko back and forth. To get Doran I use Eladamri's and tutors.

I also like attacking with a 1/1 (Tribe) then discarding 5 cards, boosting the toughness to 21, and winning out of nowhere.

Shuko is there to boost the Angel, and Slagwurm is a good boost if Doran is rocking the board. Unearth can get almost all creatures back, and is rarely if ever a dead card as the cycling ability is there.

The deck is just a shell, and I would really appreciate some input. Unfortunately, I haven't yet managed to test it, except a rough build on MWS and you can rock up with a core set starter pack and win, so no feedback there.

[264505]

You may as well use that land that allows you to sacrifice a cleric to gain life equal to its toughness so you can go of for infinite life if Doran isnt in play. Also, it might be better to use a living wish board than the library tutors.

[Grollub]

For the love of God cut Iron Will. ;-)

Fairly interesting list, while I don't think it'd be top tier I find it interesting. Have you considered using Living Wish instead of one of the tutors - it'd allow for the Life combo as a constant "oops I win" factor.

Since your "combo" is entirely dependant on resolving creatures you really should look into Aether Vial too.

EDIT: Ninjaed on Life/Living Wish suggestion. :-D

[Jenni]

Hm, interesting list, I don;t really think it needs the unearths though - yeah it brings back most of your creatures, but because the deck wants to be somewhat fast, I don't think you'd really want to spend the time and mana on unearth when you could pump one of your existing creatures or swords a blocker to get more damage through.
I second the aether vial suggestion too - against more controlling decks you might not be able to resolve enough creatures for your deck to work, aether vial would give you a way around that and gives you bit more speed otherwise.

As for the mana base, getting your colours with duals and fetches shouldn't be too hard so I doubt you'll really need harrow, just watch out for wastelands - I would say even split of Savannah and Scrubland for duals, then 8 or so fetches then the rest basics. Gives you some resilience to wastelands, and you can fetch one of the duals for the mana fixing if you need it.

[optml]

Nice one guys, already the proverbial juices are flowing.

I like those ideas, both using Starlit Sanctum and Living Wish.

I don't mind losing Iron Will, but there was reason for my madness to include it. If the pieces are assembled, it is a more powerful Giant Growth, and if the pieces aren't assembled then it replaces itself through cycling. As it is only a one off, I'll leave it up to general consensus I think. For now, consider it removed.

I was also finding that perhaps there is not enough disruption. As I have to produce black to hard cast our friend Doran and Bob, I have added a couple more discard. I felt Hymn was a little black-heavy, with BB as a cost so I have gone for 1 mana discard only. I have also included a few Mental Misteps, to help with swords, vials and other cards that could throw a spanner in the works.

Following this, the list stands at:

Creatures

4x Doran, the Siege Tower
1x Xantid Swarm
2x Tireless Tribe
4x Treefolk Harbinger
4x Dark Confidant

Instants / Sorceries

4x Living Wish
1x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Eladamri's Call
2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Vindicate
2x Unearth
2x Mental Misstep

Artifacts / Enchantments

2x Shuko
2x Aether Vial

Lands

4x Murmuring Bosk (It's made for Doran)
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Starlit Sanctum
Mana fixing duals / pains and fetches.
Probably aim for 22 or so lands.

Sideboard

1x Tireless Tribe
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Angelic Protector
1x Nomads en-kor
1x Daru Spiritualist
1x Starlit Sanctum
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Xantid Swarm
6 other cards to deal with problem decks.

[optml]

Just to give an example of a 'nuts' hand, let's say we're on the play:

T1: Land, Vial
T2: Vial in Tireless Tribe, and cast Bob
T3: Cast Doran, attack with Tribe, discard 5 cards for a satisfying win.

Maybe not Tier 1 deck (Yet!) but a T3 kill with a 1cc 1/1 isn't to be scoffed at!

[GoboLord]

First of all: nice idea! The already have been some Rock-attempts (name of 'Doran-Rock') but those lists were never really abusing that Treefolk (in fact those lists looked like standard Rock build + 2 Doran ).
Thus: nice you picked up Doran and made your own list.

Here are some thoughts that came into my mind while reading the list:

Creatures

4x Doran, the Siege Tower
1x Xantid Swarm This thing isn't threatening to most decks. Yo need to play aggressive.
2x Tireless Tribe I think you should pack more of these because they completely stop fast Aggro decks in early turn. You could also consider integrating the Madness mechanism into your deck if Tireless Tribe appears to be strong (e.g. Big Game Hunter)
4x Treefolk Harbinger
4x Dark Confidant

Instants / Sorceries

4x Living Wish I find it too slow. But if you really like to run it you should also have at least 1 Gaddock Teeg in MD
1x Green Sun's Zenith 1-off GSZ that only has 7 targets? No, Sir! That thing is useless in your list. You already have virtually 8 ways of getting yourself a Doran.
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Eladamri's Call I'd cut those to add 2 StoP to your deck, because you have only few removal so far)
2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress I'd cut those Discard-Spells. They are not "aggressive enough and only 4 slots won't bring you anywhere
2x Vindicate
2x Unearth
2x Mental Misstep I'd cut those for +1 Vindicate and +1 Unearth. You really need unearth to get your creatures back (this deck doesn nothing without Doran)

Artifacts / Enchantments

2x Shuko The Eternal-Life combo demands to many spots. Thus I would reduce it to Daru Spiritualistband Nomads en-Kor for your tech with DOran: -2 Shuko, +2 Vial
2x Aether Vial

Lands

4x Murmuring Bosk[/cards] (It's made for Doran)
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All There's no reason to run THAT thing. It just drains your life, is a target for wasteland, does NOT do any manafixing and does NOT protect most of your Sorcery/Instant spells (because they don't require )
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Starlit Sanctum see above
Mana fixing duals / pains and fetches.
Probably aim for 22 or so lands.

Here's my suggestion for a decklist:

4 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Treefolk Harbringer
4 Tireless Tribe
2 Big Game Hunter (or) 2 Dark Withering
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nomads en-Kor
4 Daru Spiritualist

2 Unearth
2 Call to the Netherworld
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Murmering Bosk
14 Color-Fixing Lands

[colo]

Probably wants Ensnaring Bridge to stop $craploads_of_stuff while not being concerned with it that much.

[optml]

The internet is a wonderful thing! I appreciate the input from this forum guys.

@colo That's interesting, I will definitely look at that for the sideboard, if not the MD.

@GoboLord: Very good reply, thanks! I think that I agree with all point there. If I am going to ditch the Shuko (which if I'm honest was just an idea to get juices flowing, but never really worked well), then I'm going to focus more on Doran. 4 Unearths are good I think (as, based on the creatures in the deck, it now reads "B: Return target creature from your graveyard to play". Eat your heart out Reanimate!), as well as 4 Tribes MD. I think I would rather not have call to the netherworld (although nice idea!!) because with only 4 madness-themes in the whole deck it wouldn't be abusable with Tribes, and call to the netherworld underperforms compared to unearth.

I'm inclined to agree with you about Living Wish too; in a format where 3rd turn wins are the norm for a lot of decks, spending 2nd turn tutoring as a sorcery (while using up valuable slots in the SB) may not be ideal.

So... All things considered, how's this for a (non-sideboard) decklist?

4x Doran, the Siege Tower
4x Treefolk Harbinger
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nomads en-Kor
4x Daru Spiritualist

4x Unearth
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
2x Aether Vial

2x Starlit Sanctum
4x Murmuring Bosk
16x Color-Fixing Lands

My schedule is ridiculously busy now guys, so I'm not going to be posting any tournament results (as I shan't be attending any), but if anyone does try testing please post their thoughts! I always like looking at novel ideas for decks, and I think this is one.

Also, if you sat across from someone, and your T1 was Land, Tireless Tribe, they would assume dredge (I would think) and play accordingly! Just a random comment...

I think this deck needs a name... How does "Doran's Legions" sound to people?

Also, for non-believers of this deck, or it's potential, below are a couple of plays that surprised my opponents when I played on MWS. For lands, I used some fetch, pain and duals, but it needs work so I am leaving it to individual testing.

One time, that I was particularly chuffed with, was a cheeky play by me.

The board looked something like this: opponent and I on high life (15-16+), him playing some ROCK net-decklist. It was turn 4 or 5, and he was tapped out with a 5/6 tarmogoyf and dark confidant both sitting untapped. It was my turn, attack phase. I had Doran, Vial 1 counter and Daru Spiritualist untapped and good to go. I attack, and he blocks Doran with goyf (I think he assumed I has miscalculated his size, and was expecting to kill it) and he doesn't block my Daru fellow. After blocking, I vial in Nomads en-kor, activate his lovely little ability on my spiritualist and own him up old school!
A side note though, was that I assumed the opponent would not block with bob. If he had, the net result would have been a trade of Doran for Bob. Not a bad trade, but it definitely worked out better for me this way!

The second one was simply an example of a (surprisingly common) aggressive early game that took down a ANT deck (admittedly he had a poor hand, but it was a net-decklist). He basically did nothing (I think he thoughtseized a vial and Pondered a bit), but my turns were something like:

T1 land, Vial
T2 land, Vialled in Treefolk Harbinger, put Doran on top, and hard-cast confidant.
T3 land, drew 2 from Bob, and cast Doran, left vial on 1 counter, vialed in Tireless Tribe. Attacked for 4 (3 from Treefold, and one from confidant)
T4 Attacked with for the win; below is damage.
Doran 5dmg
Bob 1dmg
Harbinger 3dmg
Tribe 9dmg (discarded 2 cards)
Job done.

I think uninterrupted the deck can win fairly well on T3 or T4, providing Doran joins the party.

Looking forward to your posts!

Alright Legacy Community, work your magic!!!

EDIT: Wasteland is out (Thanks 'B_is_for_Big_Job'!). After further testing, the lack of coloured mana is an issue, and a couple of starlit sanctums could be a game winner. -4 Wasteland, +2 Starlit Sanctums, +2 Mana Producers (either mox's or lands)

[B is for Big Job]

Just to throw in my 2 cents is wasteland even worth it? Granted it helps against Maze and Tabby but depending on your meta you might not even need them. Starlit Sanctum should at least have 1 or 2 spots just because having infinite life helps you live long enough to win sometimes, pending on the matchup. Also are 22 lands necessary? The top of the curve is only 3 mana for either Vindicate or Doran and runs vial so you can easily run off of a few lands and Doran can be vialed in as well for awesome combat tricks.

[GoboLord]

I just remembered those Eternal Life.dec-lists.
The run Condemn as additional combo-piece along with Daru spiritualist.
So in our deck: Swords to Plowshares < Condemn

[jhhdk]

I had a deck with exactly the same idea. I had Meekstone to ensure opponents only got to use their big beaters once and that they'd have nothing to block with if they did. The problem with my list was that many cards were completely useless unless Doran was out. I fear you may face the same issue.

[kinda]

I think the Doran/Ensnaring Bridge interaction is the best way to abuse him. I'd go with something like this:

Creatures: 15

4x Doran, the Siege Tower
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Terrastadon
1x Progenitus

Instants / Sorceries 15

3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Thoughtseize
3x Natural Order

Artifacts / Enchantments 8

2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Sacred Mesa
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Sylvan Library
1x Runed Halo

[264505]

I think I'd run something closer to this

4 Doran
3 Spiritualist
3 Nomads
4 Bob
4 KotR
4 Goyf

3 StP
4 Vial
4 Living Wish
2 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Condemn

20 lands with 1 Sanctum as KotR lets you search for it.

Board
1 bojuka bog
1 Karakas
1 Sanctum
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ethersworm Cannonist
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thoughtsieze
1 Nomads
1 Spiritualist

Goyf and KotR allow you to lay down the beats without Doran so the deck isn't as reliant about getting him into play. The life combo has a lot of spots devoted to it, but it can be pretty potent.

[Clark Kant]

Any deck built around Doran and other low power high toughness creatures MUST PLAY...

Ensnaring Bridge

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I just realized that unearth is realy strong in this deck.
T1 Tribe
T2 discard stuff + doran, unearth him

You even have 1 mana left for discard/stp

[The Treefolk Master]

+1 to Ensnaring Bridge.

I used to have a casual deck that won with Doran, Walls and Rolling Stones. It isn't good enough for legacy, but killing someone with Wall of Blood was priceless.

[optml]

I like how this thread has progressed guys. However, I think we're in danger of having two or three different decks here. Now a couple of guys have commented that without Doran, the deck fails.

I disagree.

Tribe is awesome. He laughs in the face of (non-deathtouch / evasion) aggro creatures, and beats for one a turn when needed. It may not seem a lot, but resolve that first turn, and then get locked down by the opponent's standstill counter-top, it can make the difference.

Bob... well... need he be discussed? He was used in Standard, extended, legacy, vintage, and every casual / non-casual format that he can be (except perhaps EDH). In this deck, he provides early beats, minimal life loss and great card advantage to get the disruption spells.

I think that the aim is to disrupt / stall until Doran, who should hit 3rd turn fairly reliably ("8" copies, and Confidant to draw, and unearth to cycle.) I think this should be the gameplan, and have the infinite life as a second (but awesome) plan.

Meekstone vs Ensnaring Bridge
I like meekstone better, and only because the casting cost is a lot lower. However, I don't like them main deck. I think tribes, doran, harbinger, StP / Condemn provide enough aggro defense. Put a few in the SB for Natural Order, Team America etc. decks, but it does feel like clutter in a fairly focussed deck.

I think the land count is too high at the moment. Maybe 18 or 19 with Mox Diamond to speed up?

Of the people commenting, has anyone yet tested any lists yet? I'm just curious if it has posted decent wins yet against legitimate decks or if it is pure speculation?

Oh, and nice spot with the turn 1 tribe, turn 2 Doran via unearth! On that note, with a couple of Mox Diamonds, it could be: land, mox, Tribe, discard Doran, unearth doran, 2nd turn win!

Tier 1 here we come!! (Well, maybe not... but a man can dream).

Also, has anyone noticed how cheap this deck is to run so far, compared with other Legacy decks! Depending on land choices, the cost could shoot up exponentially (duals are a pricy inclusion), but at the moment I think the most cost heavy cards are the Dark Confidants or StP.

I would like to avoid going down the Natural Order route, as I think it will only become a worse version of the current NO decks. I think focusing on Doran is the way forward.

I am a BIG fan of Condemn in this deck, and I agree that throwing a couple in there will help greatly. In a lot of cases against opponents creatures, there is little difference between condemn and swords to plowshares as most creatures are used to attack, but even just once in 5 games or 10 games using it to gain infinite life is swanky.

I've also become more and more interested in Vial for the deck as it can ensure explosive early games, and leaves me less susceptible to countering. My list currently is:


4x Doran, the Siege Tower
4x Treefolk Harbinger
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nomads en-Kor
4x Daru Spiritualist

4x Unearth
4x Vindicate
4x Aether Vial
2x Condemn
2x Swords to Plowshares

2x Mox Diamond

1x Starlit Sanctum
4x Murmuring Bosk
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Plains
1x Swamp


Before making many more changes, I'm going to see how this goes. If anyone has any results, do let me know!

Also... I'm aware how delicate this mana is to wasteland, but when you play 3 colours, that you want out in the 3rd turn, it is going to be risky. I have included a couple of basic lands for that reason.

[Hot Soup]

Needs more Spellskite. This card is already a house in standard and becoming a 4 of in almost all lists. As a 0/4 with a very good ability at 2 cmc, I see no reason not to use and abuse him. He protects your bobs and dorans and fucks everything else up while he is at it.

[optml]

Ok, but what would you suggest removing for him? I agree with spellskite in Standard may have become the norm, but not necessarily relevant for Legacy.

I DO however like his high toughness for the 2cc, which synergies well with our deck's namesake. Good idea Hot Soup. If I DID include for of him in the deck, maybe slightly adjust the lands to include one or two blue, so that the alternative cost of 2 life is not the only cost that can be afforded.

It's a pretty tight decklist at the moment, insofar as it may be difficult to find 4 slots... Maybe include 4 in the sideboard against burn / creature removal decks, and keep out against combo?

Keep the ideas coming, but... has noone had a chance to test against anything??