[Deck] Goblins

[jrw1985]

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

after some weeks of testing against decks (meaning: decklists) we will face post NPH I have developed a very good list, which I want to share with you guys.

Right now I don't have the rest to write a full report of my testing results. So for now you'll only get to see the decklist (which is by the way the most powerful list I ever tested!). This time I'm 100% sure about every slot in the deck and you can ask me anything if something appears strange to you.
If you have questions about boarding plans and/or strategies in certain MUs feel free to ask.

//Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Chrome Mox

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Warren Instigator
3 Mogg War Marshal

//Sideboard [15]
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mental Misstep
2 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish

I really need to hear about the MUs. This deck looks pretty stock, so what makes it so special? 3 Mental Misstep? And why no Rishadan Port?

Also, has anyone been testing MD Vexing Shusher now that the meta is so blue?

[Avatara]

Also, has anyone been testing MD Vexing Shusher now that the meta is so blue?

I already suggested that a few pages back but no one responded.

[Skeggi]

MWM without Chieftain seems meh. Heck, even with Chieftain it's crap. If going back to MWM is supposed to enter the new dawn of Goblins I sincerely fear for the deck's place in the top tier. I understand Wort can be awesome, especially with Incinerators, I'm inclined to give it some testing and thought, but I refuse to believe MWM is a viable card; it is too often too terrible. Please explain to me why 2 1/1 for cmc 2 is better than an alternative from the wide range of cards the Legacy card pool has to offer.

[Nameless Two]

It does open up these:

T1 Chrome Mox + MWM
T2 Warchief
T3 Matron + Piledriver + Stingscourger/MWM

T1 Chrome Mox + MWM
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 Stingscourger + Matron + Warchief + MWM
T3 Piledriver

T1 Lackey
T2 MWM + Warchief
T3 MWM + Piledriver + Stingscourger

But yeah, playing Chieftain opens up much better MWM possibilities. Or Skirk Prospector. Without them the speed is really going down with MWM. You sort of need a Piledriver to make them work offensively.

Defensively they are awesome ofcourse.

And they work really sweet with Goblin Grenades, but that was never really an option. And now with Mental Misstep they are definetely a no-go. They gain some minor advantage with Warren Weirding too, but that one isn't on your list either. How about running just 1 or 2? You need some steady 2 drops I guess with all the MM going on, but against many decks MWM on turn 1 or 2, is just not really cutting edge.

On the other hand, with Chieftain you could go:

T1 Chrome Mox + MWM
T2 Chieftain
T3 MWM/Piledriver + Piledriver/MWM/(if they took 1 damage from fetch even Stingscourger/Warchief will do)

Even without MWM you can get sick plays with Chrome Mox and Chieftain.

T1 Chrome Mox + Piledriver
T2 Chieftain
T3 You really only need MWM/Piledriver/Matron or any two goblins you can play. (Even Gempalm Incinerator + Lackey will do)

T1 Chrome Mox + Lackey + Vial
T2 Chieftain + Matron
T3 Chieftain + MWM/Piledriver/Stingscourger/Instigator

T1 Vial
T2 Chrome Mox + Chieftain + Lackey + SGC
T3 Attack and sac 2 goblins.

T1 Vial
T2 Chrome Mox + Chieftain + Lackey + Matron
T3 Ringleader + Piledriver

T1 Vial
T2 Chrome Mox + Chieftain + Lackey + Matron
T3 Matron + Piledriver

T1 Lackey
T2 Chrome Mox + Chieftain + SGC
T3 Attack and sac 2 goblins

T1 Lackey
T2 Chrome Mox + Chieftain + Matron/Ringleader
T3 Piledriver + SGC (sac a goblin)/MWM/Stingscourger/Piledriver/Lackey/Warchief/Instigator

T1 -
T2 Chrome Mox + Warchief
T3 Chieftain + Piledriver + MWM/Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + MWM
T2 Warchief
T3 Chieftain + Chieftain

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 Matron + Matron + Matron
T3 Chieftain + Lackey + Chieftain

Ofcourse this is prettier:

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 Chieftain + Matron + Matron
T3 Chieftain

and

T1 Chrome Mox + Instigator
T2 SGC + SGC + (cycle incinerator/stingscourger/wasteland/port if you wish)
T3 Chieftain

T1 Chrome Mox + Chrome Mox + Chieftain
T2 Piledriver
T3 Piledriver/MWM

T1 Chrome Mox + Chrome Mox + Chieftain
T2 Matron
T3 Piledriver + MWM/Piledriver

T1 Chrome Mox + Chrome Mox + Chieftain
T2 Chieftain
T3 MWM/Piledriver

And probably way more... just a few to show you the power of Chrome Mox + Chieftain in goldfishlike matchups.

[ScatmanX]

I attended to a little tournament this week, just with Chieftain in place of MWM on Gobbos new list, and -1 Wort, +1 Instigator. I faced Folk, agroo Bant, and T.A., and I must say, Instigator and Mox were both awesome! They completely wreck those blue decks, and they usually lose with their Missteps on their hands.
Little report may come later.

Question for now: What sb card is good against T.A.?

[GoboLord]

Ok, Warchiefs.
I’ve found some time to write a longer explanation on the list I posted on the last page. I hope I can make my point clear and that you will be able follow my train of thoughts:

Starting point:
We are preparing our deck for a new meta with MM (although I don’t claim to say how much the meta will be different from the pre-NPH). So far our discussions have brought us to the point that 3 types of decklists/strategies were considered to be competitive. To make things easier I will give them names so that I don’t have to repeat all those cards that actually make the difference:

(1) The “Moxigator”-list

Special features:
* relies on fast starts threatening creatures
* weak emphasis on manadenial (only 4 Wastelands)
* 2 Chrome Mox replace 2 lands
* 3-4 copies of Warren Instigator
* 3-4 copies of Goblin Chieftain
* few removals (4-5 slots)

Sample:
//Lands [22]
4 Wastelands
2 Chrome Mox
16 color-fixing lands

//Core [26]
…

Others [12]
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger


(2) The „Stalling-Marshal“-list

Special features:
* relies on board-control and beats the opponent with overwhelming rescources
* strong emphasis on manadenial (7-8 slots)
* many slots devoted to removal (6-8 slots)
* 3-4 copies of Mogg War Marshal

Sample:
//Lands [23]
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
15 color-fixing lands

//Core [26]
-1 Goblin Piledriver
+1 Siege-Gang Commander

Others [11]
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger


(3) Ru-“Tempo-Goblins”

Special features:
* takes advantage of the surprise factor
* U-splash for at least Mental Misstep and Brainstrom
* few removal

Sample:
//Lands [22]
4 Wastelands
18 color-fixing lands

//Core [22]
-4 Goblin Ringleader

Others [16]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

This was the starting point from which I started my testing sessions.
Here is what my testing revealed about those 3 decklists (I don’t want to go too deep into detailed MUs here):

(1) The “Moxigator”-list
A big advantage of this list is it’s threat-density. Usually our opponent has to fear each and every permanent that this list spits out. WI can win games single handedly against nearly every deck. Another big advantage is it’s speed. The usual strategy to deal with problematic cards is to win the game before they come into play. The third thing I liked about this configuration is that it has better topdecks than the other two lists. This however correlates with the high threat density of the deck.
Disadvantages: The deck is less explosive as the other lists. Goblin Warchief reduces the manacosts of many cards to RR – which means that we are rarely able to spit out more than 1 creature per turn unless we have a AEther Vial online. This leads to the second disadvantage: AEther Vial is insanely important for this lists. Without AV you will most likely find yourself in situations where opponent’s Wasteland made you unable to extend your boardpositions just because you don’t have enough mana. This in turn downgrades your Gempalm Incinerators who oftentimes deals only 1-2 damage for 2 mana!

(2) The „Stalling-Marshal“-list
This list is very reactive. It is able to draw matches into mid- and late-game where you beat your opponent via card-/boardadvantage. With MWM you nearly never have trouble with your Gempalms (actually it says “When you cycle GI, you may have it deal enough damage to any creature). Mogg War Marshal is almost always a 3-in-1 creature and it’s Echo-trigger makes it easier to compete with Dredge (dealing with Bridge from Below). The next advantage is that in a configurations with 6+ removal you virtually never need to waste your Matron to find one.
This brings us to the first disadvantage: In many MU your removalspells are dead draws and/or bad topdecks. Another disadvantage that somehow the manadenial route is not as effective as it used to be. In my testing sessions I had only very few situations in which my manadenial won me games – no actually it was the other way round: oftentimes those coloreless sources really sucked when building up the board position. The most important disadvantage is that this list is way to slow to beat semi-combo-decks like Sneak Show, Dreadstill and Painter-Combo. We just can’t (and don’t want to) bring those matches into lategame.

(3) Ru-“Tempo-Goblins”
I have to admit that I didn’t test Standstill for long, because at the very beginning of my testing sessions it somehow disappointed me and I wanted my Ringleaders back.
The only real advantage about this list is that it has Mental Misstep. Mental Misstep is oftentimes not even a bad topdeck. It stops removal when you are about to force the last damage through your opponents defenses. It kills opposing Aether Vial. It disrupts their Cantrips. The list is long….
However, oftentimes I wished MM were any Goblin (even any removal!). The same goes for Brainstorm. It provides you nice tricks with Ringleader and/or Lackey, but it is absolutely not worth splashing a color just for that. I tested several U SB-cards and none really convinced me.


Let’s take a look at what cards I boarded out most often (I always find this a reliable sign to spot bad cards):
* in the Moxigator list I boarded out Chieftain and the 4th WI most often
* same goes for Warren Weirding: I found it very annoying being forced to fetch on Badlands just to see it being wasted on the next turn. This can cost you games when it happens during your setup phase.
* this is also true for the the Stalling-Marshal list. Here I also boarded WW our frequently either to not let it disrupt my setup phase or simply because I didn’t need 7 spot-removal postboard.
* when playing with Tempo-Goblins I boarded out Mental Misstep frequently, because in most MUs there are better cards waiting in your SB. On the other hand there are MU in which your are really glad to have access to MM, like Merfolk, Dreadstill, Zoo and Thresh-variants.

Looking at those results I just did what I found most logical: integrate the best aspects from each of those 3 lists/strategies in 1 deck and kick the annoying parts.
@ jrw: you are right, this list is absolutely staple.

I’ve spend more time on writing this than I planned, so an detailed explanation on SB-cards will follow next time.

[wcm8]

Blood Moon completely wrecks Team America. [in response to the question re: good sideboard cards.] I don't play Goblins that much, but landing this enchantment is essentially GG for a deck that runs close to zero basic lands.

[Avatara]

Blood Moon completely wrecks Team America. [in response to the question re: good sideboard cards.] I don't play Goblins that much, but landing this enchantment is essentially GG for a deck that runs close to zero basic lands.

That's how TA got pushed of the meta last time. But keep in mind that this was by dragon stompy running Blood Moon. They also have access to other other disruption in the form of Challice of the Void and Trinisphere. I don't know if goblins with only Blood Moon will be enough.

[ScatmanX]

That's how TA got pushed of the meta last time. But keep in mind that this was by dragon stompy running Blood Moon. They also have access to other other disruption in the form of Challice of the Void and Trinisphere. I don't know if goblins with only Blood Moon will be enough.

I'm thinking about my games, and Blood Moon would have saved me all times...

[GoblinZ]

Hello everyone, I am thinking about what is called “Chalice Goblin”

3 wasteland
2 badlands
1 taiga
8 fetchlands
5 mountain
19 lands

2 gempalm incinerator
4 warren instigator
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 warchief
3Stingscourger
3 piledriver
1 goblin chieftain
2 mogg war marshal
1 lightning Crafter
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 commander
33 creatures

4 chalice of void
4 chrome mox

SB：3 perish
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
4 leyline of void
2 pyrostatic pillar


Does this work？ Actually,I have not tested it with any decks

[Amon Amarth]

I attended to a little tournament this week, just with Chieftain in place of MWM on Gobbos new list, and -1 Wort, +1 Instigator. I faced Folk, agroo Bant, and T.A., and I must say, Instigator and Mox were both awesome! They completely wreck those blue decks, and they usually lose with their Missteps on their hands.
Little report may come later.

Question for now: What sb card is good against T.A.?

Wouldn't WW be good here? I mean, most lists, they only play 8 threats right?

[ScatmanX]

Wouldn't WW be good here? I mean, most lists, they only play 8 threats right?

Yes, it would, but searching for Badlands is bad... =/
I think Blood Moon would have been the saver.
Funny thing is that I removed them from my list just a couple of days before the tournament... oh well...

[L10]

GoblinZ, if you want to go for a more control route, you should try Thorn of Amethyst.

[DragoFireheart]

How does Goblins deal with Mental Misstep? It counter Goblin Lackey and Aether Vial, both which are vital pieces to this deck.

[Vandalize]

How does Goblins deal with Mental Misstep? It counter Goblin Lackey and Aether Vial, both which are vital pieces to this deck.

If you had read the thread, you'd know we've discussed this before.

[DragoFireheart]

If you had read the thread, you'd know we've discussed this before.

I did read previous comments on that subject.

I did not get an answer other than taking Goblins and doing half-as things with it like adding Daze or Mental Misstep themselves, which isn't an answer at all. Furthermore, running 2cmc answers will do shit since people running MMS are also running Spell Snare to complement it.

Between Mental Misstep, Spell Snare and Force of Will, blue players can stop any "broken" plays you try within the first couple turn. You are not getting anything broken done within that time frame. Non-Merfolk also run Swords to Plowshares with that counter suite. No, Goblins is going to have a rough time.

[ScatmanX]

I did read previous comments on that subject.

I did not get an answer other than taking Goblins and doing half-as things with it like adding Daze or Mental Misstep themselves, which isn't an answer at all. Furthermore, running 2cmc answers will do shit since people running MMS are also running Spell Snare to complement it.

Between Mental Misstep, Spell Snare and Force of Will, blue players can stop any "broken" plays you try within the first couple turn. You are not getting anything broken done within that time frame. Non-Merfolk also run Swords to Plowshares with that counter suite. No, Goblins is going to have a rough time.

I attended to a little tournament this week, just with Chieftain in place of MWM on Gobbos new list, and -1 Wort, +1 Instigator. I faced Folk, agroo Bant, and T.A., and I must say, Instigator and Mox were both awesome! They completely wreck those blue decks, and they usually lose with their Missteps on their hands.
Little report may come later.

I forgot to say: They all run Misstep, and I won them all. Mox and Instigator are awesome! they can counter Vial+Instigator, but that means your Warchief will stick around? That Ringleader/Siege-gang will resolve?
If so, then please, everyone please run 4 Missteps, and we will crush them.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not looking for anedoctal evidence. People have won with really random shit before, but that doesn't make it any good.

Once people start to pair Spell Snare with Mental Misstep and realize they were meant to be together, things will change. You MIGHT be able to play around 1 CMC stuff, but both 1 and 2 CMC stuff? Your deck will start to enter the realm of jank by that point. Mox Diamond is cute but that creates more weaknesses in your deck.

FoW, MMS and SS will become the spell suite for blue mages.

[L10]

DragoFireheart, have you tried Summoning Trap? I have three on my SB and has been really good for me against any blue deck. I got my T1 Lackey countered a couple times already and already fetched myself some decent goblins like Warchief, Instigator, and SSG. Though, the likelihood of having both Lackey and Trap on T1 is not often and does not prevent our T1 Vial from getting countered. Otherwise, we have Vexing Shusher, Pyroblast, and Red Elemental Blast. I do not think running a set of MM is a solution either.

ScatmanX, I have tried running two copies Chrome Mox before and they are normally a disappointment for me. Since I am only running with two copies, the likelihood of me getting them on T1 are rare, which makes them useless in the late game. Sometimes, I will have a Chrome Mox on T1, but the rest of my hand is lacking, so I end up mulligan anyways. Do you have this issue?

[ScatmanX]

ScatmanX, I have tried running two copies Chrome Mox before and they are normally a disappointment for me. Since I am only running with two copies, the likelihood of me getting them on T1 are rare, which makes them useless in the late game. Sometimes, I will have a Chrome Mox on T1, but the rest of my hand is lacking, so I end up mulligan anyways. Do you have this issue?

I did have issues, but I think the strengths overweight the weaknesses.
In 10 games I played, these are the ones I remember Mox was usefull:
- G1 vs Folk. T1 Instigator. He FoW'd. Proceed to turn 2 Warchief, that met Daze, and T3 Ringleader, that resolved, and I won from there.
- G1 vs Bant. I led with Mountain + Vial, he FoW'd. I imprinted Piledriver on Mox and cast another Vial, that sticked, and won me the game, while on low life.
- G3 vs T.A., used it turn 2 to get a Warchief, that resolved, and made my life easier.
- G2 vs T.A. (remach) I had to remove a good card, and it was later destroyed by DeeD (here it sucked).
- G1 vs TES, got T1 Piledriver, T2 Chieftain.
- I can remember 2 other times where I thought a Mountain would be better, but it made no difference whatsoever, due to the massive amount of cards I had, and one other time when it was useful, when I got to play my 4th land T4, AND play mox, to ramp to a needed 5 mana to do something bonkers I don't remember)

The deal is that it does have it's downsides, like every other card in Magic, but I think it is very well suited for today's meta.