I've been testing Perilous Research instead of Predict. It complements shackles and I won a match against painter by being able to kill off painters this way when my opponent managed to kill both needles I had on grindstone... since merely controlling his painter's servant didn't stop the madness. When I sac'd it in response he was mortified.
What do you think Hanni? I realize the effective "counter" function Predict has against opponents tutors is very powerful. I'd love to have both capabilities.
I'm going to test a couple mortorpods for a "sac" function instead next.
I've finally been able to play the 4c list I posted, and let me tell you, I was horribly wrong. Beast Within sucks if you don't have Shackles active or Firespout at hand. You basically have to board it out if either other complementary removal gets boarded out. I quickly learned to hate the card, though it's really nice on paper.
This is, btw, the same I think of Perilous Research. If you have excess permanents due to Shackles, it's oh-so-awesome, but if you don't it's close to a dead card because it just cycles itself and a permanent from play. Predict generates actual card advantage from the moment where you have a Top and thus is a million times better.
You could, on the other hand, combine it with Hatching Plans and get a really powerful draw engine... :D
Island, go.
I know standstill has been discussed thoroughly in the primer already, but with the printing of mental misstep don't you guys think its time to discuss every controll players wet dream? i.e counterbalance + standstill in a single deck.
This idea is probably still as far fetched as it was prior to NPH, but still, guys, MM sets up standstill PERFECTLY.
Is it possible?
or a better question would be: is it worth it?
What would the deck list look like?Originally Posted by Jackehehe
4 Counterbalance
4 SDT
4 Landstill
4 Mental Misstep
4 FoW
3 JTMS
3 Elspeth
4 StP
4 Factory
This would probably be a shell to start with. I'd like to run Ajani Vengeant to be honest. You can tap down the occasional threat they let through.
The problem with going that route is the Counterbalance curve.
First of all, if you go tossing in 4 Factories, you have to retool the deck. That means either adding more land (the best option), or cutting from Islands. Cutting Islands is bad because not only does it weaken the manabase, it also weakens Shackles.
If we go with the "add more lands" route, then something else from the deck has to be cut. This is an incredibly fine-tuned deck, so making big cuts is a very difficult task.
Secondly, if we go straight into cutting Counterspells for Mental Missteps, we not only lose alot of reach (Counterspell counters all bombs, Mental Misstep only counters 1cc spells), we also drop the 2cc count far too low. The only feasible way to compensate that I can think of, would be to cut Elspeth's for Tarmogoyf's... at which point the deck is starting to become an entirely different deck altogether.
From there, we still need to cut alot more stuff to fit in the Factories, the rest of the Goyf's, and Mental Misstep. Path to Exile and Oblivion Ring are easy cuts, but past that... it's a mess.
There's definitely merit in going with a Supreme Blue style, but it's no longer Countertop Superfriends. Honestly, I'm very intrigued about running Knight of the Reliquary in a deck with Mishra's Factories, since excess lands in the mid-late equate to additional "creatures." Something like a 3/2 split of Goyf/Knight or something. However, that discussion would belong in a different thread.
I'm just about to switch to this route of Countertop (from Bant). I'm tinkering with this build right now:
Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
8 Island
2 Plains
Creatures (0)
Spells (38)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles
Minor differences from Hanni's list...and I"m thinking of putting in a Pithing Needle in main, and maybe the possibility of using an Enlightened Tutor to support it..so probably going -1 Predict and -1 Path to Exile. Do you think it's a good idea?
By the way, great work on the primer thread-starter! Got me convinced to try it out. :D
Aether Vial says hello on turn one.
This deck NEEDs Mental Misstep. There is no reason to not run it. Something else is taking a slot? Take it out: that card is inferior. Unless of course you enjoy watching Aether Vials get dropped on turn one or getting hit with Duress/Thoughtseize on turn one, royally fucking you over.
You state how inferior everything else is compared to Mental Misstep, but clearly, you have no idea what this deck actually needs.
Mental Misstep is a strong card to be sure, but what it does is counter 1cc spells. The only 1cc spell that this deck has ever had a problem with is AEther Vial. Unfortunately, I'm not about to butcher my deck to run a free counterspell to answer 1 problem card.
I've been designing this deck to beat Merfolk for a long time now, and the way that it is does so is to simply disregard Vial, with spells like Shackles and Peacekeeper. Sure, my opponent can resolve a Vial and start playing uncounterable guys, but if they can't swing into me, it becomes irrelevant.
By the way, Mental Misstep is only good against a turn 1 Vial if it's in my opener. After that, it's a pretty shitty spell for the rest of the game. I'd much rather run Pithing Needle, which also hits Mutavault.
For the record, I could care less about turn 1 Thoughtseize's... to say that those royally fuck me over shows your complete lack of playtesting experience with this deck, or any other similar deck.
On a sidenote, if MM Merfolk were to start dominating every Top 8 (which is very doubtful), the deck could warp itself to include Mental Misstep to improve that matchup specifically by cutting spells like Oblivion Ring and such, which are less useful in that specific matchup. However, until that point, I'm not sacrificing my other matchups to deal with a matchup that this deck has already been designed to deal with.
I quickly got a set of those when it came out, till now I can't find space for it in this deck
Also, I think the deck indeed is made capable of handling Merfolk's creatures already...sometimes too much. So far, I haven't seen the real urgency for 2 Path to Exiles and have yet to try using Kor Haven, another extra creature stopper.
-...which saw 16% representation with all the Merfolk decks in a recent tournament.
-..and how will you remove their guys? Swords/Exiles will be hit by MMS, shackles has to resolve through their array of counters while they are dropping dudes off vial and keeping mana open to counter your stuff. Their manlands also invalidate shackles. Their Vials invalidate your Counterbalance for their dudes. I'm not seeing it.I've been designing this deck to beat Merfolk for a long time now, and the way that it is does so is to simply disregard Vial, with spells like Shackles and Peacekeeper. Sure, my opponent can resolve a Vial and start playing uncounterable guys, but if they can't swing into me, it becomes irrelevant.
-Umm, no. MMS stops:By the way, Mental Misstep is only good against a turn 1 Vial if it's in my opener. After that, it's a pretty shitty spell for the rest of the game. I'd much rather run Pithing Needle, which also hits Mutavault.
Aether Vial
Cursecatcher
Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce
Furthermore, your own MMS can help protect against their MMS for:
Swords to Plowshares
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Path to Exile
-So my opinion is invalid because I didn't playtest? Tell me, what has your playtesting produced for win % VS Merfolk and Team America? Is it anything less than 50%? If you can't get at least 51%, then maybe to better reconsider what your "experience" has shown you.For the record, I could care less about turn 1 Thoughtseize's... to say that those royally fuck me over shows your complete lack of playtesting experience with this deck, or any other similar deck.
-I think you are underestimating how good MMS is against your deck. Your deck does not have the redundancy that zoo has. Zoo has so many 1cmc spells which do the same thing that it doesn't care about one being countered. However, many of your 1cmc are critical in either filtering your deck for cards you need or removal.On a sidenote, if MM Merfolk were to start dominating every Top 8 (which is very doubtful), the deck could warp itself to include Mental Misstep to improve that matchup specifically by cutting spells like Oblivion Ring and such, which are less useful in that specific matchup. However, until that point, I'm not sacrificing my other matchups to deal with a matchup that this deck has already been designed to deal with.
Hypothetically, if you WERE to include Mental Misstep, what would your deck list look like?
One recent tournament is enough to dictate what an etablished metagame looks like?-...which saw 16% representation with all the Merfolk decks in a recent tournament.
Vial seeing 16% is also not enough to warrant playing Mental Misstep in this deck. Aside from Vial, there are no other 1cc spells that I'm worried about seeing play. I don't run Spell Snare, and there are far more threatening 2cc spells for this deck to worry about. For what it's worth, Counterbalance is pretty good at answering 1cc spells too.
Again, you're lack of playtesting with this deck (in the case against Merfolk) is why you fail to grasp the matchup analysis. The 1cc removal is there to buy me time to get to the midgame, yes. If they have MMS for my 1cc removal, that makes it a little more difficult for me to get to the midgame, yes. Do I need to run my own MMS to counter theirs? No. Even if they hit my removal spells, I'm still running more 1cc removal than they are running MMS's, and I'd much rather my opponent's were cutting Spell Pierce's for MMS since MMS doesn't do shit about Shackles.-..and how will you remove their guys? Swords/Exiles will be hit by MMS, shackles has to resolve through their array of counters while they are dropping dudes off vial and keeping mana open to counter your stuff. Their manlands also invalidate shackles. Their Vials invalidate your Counterbalance for their dudes. I'm not seeing it.
Shackles IS my trump for the Merfolk matchup, and by array of counters, you mean... 4 Force of Will? Daze is fairly easy to play around, and I still have my own 4 Force of Will to make sure it resolves.
How do their manlands invalidate Shackles? Last time I checked, I can still steal manlands...
If by invalidating Shackles, you mean Lord of Atlantis, then yes. That's also why I like to Swords them with Counterspell backup.
Obviously Counterbalance is bad against them if they land Vial. However, Counterbalance is just bad vs them in general, since by the time CounterTop is active, they already have guys on the board. CounterTop doesn't prevent Mutavault's from coming down, and so I tend to avoid Counterbalance in this matchup when I can (with Brainstorm and Top). Removal is the key to winning this matchup, which is why I board into more of it for games 2 and 3. How is this situation any different from any other CounterTop deck, though?
Let me repeat myself again. Aside from countering a turn 1 AEther Vial, Mental Misstep is horrible in this matchup past the beginning of the game. Cursecatcher? I could care less, that's the least worrisome threat in their entire deck for me. Spell Pierce? I thought they were cutting those for Mental Missteps... and MMS vs MMS? Sure, that's a viable use for running my own MMS, except their MMS's don't counter my strongest bombs vs them (Shackles and Peacekeeper).-Umm, no. MMS stops:
Aether Vial
Cursecatcher
Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce
The MMS vs MMS war is really not that important. I run a stable manabase so that it is not essential for me to resolve an early game Brainstorm or Top, and while their MMS on one of my 1cc removal spells is a problem, it's not something that needs to be fixed by running my own MMS. I'll just topdeck another removal spell, since I do run a whole bunch of those, and try again.Furthermore, your own MMS can help protect against their MMS for:
Swords to Plowshares
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Path to Exile
I will contest that without MMS, and with them running MMS, my preboard win % goes down compared to before MMS got printed. However, I still dominate the postboard games. Why do I need to sacrifice my other matchups, by butchering my maindeck, to improve my preboard win % against one matchup? The metagame is still fresh off the MMS bandwagon. If Merfolk does start dominating, I'll simply go play Sligh/Zoo/Blue Zoo instead of this deck and crush the field.
Let me repeat my point: I'm not going to butcher my deck to improve one matchup at the cost of weakening the rest of my matchups. If that one matchup becomes such a dominant force in the metagame, I'll go play a different deck that has a much higher win % against it than this deck would with maindeck MMS.
Read the primer for my matchup analysis against Merfolk. I think there's also some discussion about my Team America matchup on either page 1 or page 2 (or both) of this thread.-So my opinion is invalid because I didn't playtest? Tell me, what has your playtesting produced for win % VS Merfolk and Team America? Is it anything less than 50%? If you can't get at least 51%, then maybe to better reconsider what your "experience" has shown you.
My deck most certainly has the redunancy that Zoo has. Maybe not redundancy in 1 drops, or redundancy in smashing face, but it has redundancy in removal and redundancy in countermagic. If they counter one of my 1cc spells, I'm just going to cast another spell. The only decks that are going to pose a serious problem with Mental Misstep are the decks that are going to beat my face in before I can start dropping midgame bombs, which is limited to Zoo and Merfolk (with a Vial opener).-I think you are underestimating how good MMS is against your deck. Your deck does not have the redundancy that zoo has. Zoo has so many 1cmc spells which do the same thing that it doesn't care about one being countered. However, many of your 1cmc are critical in either filtering your deck for cards you need or removal.
The other tempo aggro/control decks, like Team America and New Horizons, spend the early game playing disruption, and then finally drop a bomb in the midgame. Those matchups are perfectly fine matchups for me, with or without them running Mental Misstep. Hell, I'd rather they were running Mental Misstep than Spell Pierce, since Mental Misstep doesn't counter my bombs and Spell Pierce usually will. As far as I know, most people have been cutting Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep, right?
If you read my post a few posts back, the deck would eventually warp itself into a Supreme Blue shell, going with Tarmogoyf over Elspeth for Counterbalance curve reasons, and thusly is no longer CounterTop Superfriends. There's already a thread for Supreme Blue in the DTB section (CounterTop), so that discussion would be better spent in that thread.Hypothetically, if you WERE to include Mental Misstep, what would your deck list look like?
EDIT: Oops. I just realized the "warping into Supreme Blue" was also because of Factory + Standstill. If I was going to just do a straight port of Mental Misstep and nothing else, I could cut 2 Path to Exile and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Mental Misstep. My removal density dips too low though, so unless my opponent is running alot of 1cc creatures, that's only improving the matchups where Mental Misstep would get alot of mileage. Overall, it's a much worse configuration.
- My spider senses tell me Merfolk is going to start appearing a great deal more. Their matchup with Goblins is not bad anymore and they only really suffer to Zoo.
- My lack of playtesting shouldn't invalidate the arguments I present.Again, you're lack of playtesting with this deck (in the case against Merfolk) is why you fail to grasp the matchup analysis.
-Some lists are maining Spell Pierce ith Daze and MMS and FoW. Regardless, they still have 2 counters for your one. If you try to protect your Shackles, with FoW against theirs, they still have Dazes and cursecatchers to try and stop yours.The 1cc removal is there to buy me time to get to the midgame, yes. If they have MMS for my 1cc removal, that makes it a little more difficult for me to get to the midgame, yes. Do I need to run my own MMS to counter theirs? No. Even if they hit my removal spells, I'm still running more 1cc removal than they are running MMS's, and I'd much rather my opponent's were cutting Spell Pierce's for MMS since MMS doesn't do shit about Shackles.
Shackles IS my trump for the Merfolk matchup, and by array of counters, you mean... 4 Force of Will? Daze is fairly easy to play around, and I still have my own 4 Force of Will to make sure it resolves.
- I think once the manland turns back into a land, Shackles loses control over it. Don't quote me on that.How do their manlands invalidate Shackles? Last time I checked, I can still steal manlands...
- That's the point MMS would become relevant. They use it to protect their Lords.If by invalidating Shackles, you mean Lord of Atlantis, then yes. That's also why I like to Swords them with Counterspell backup.
-It's not, I just thought you were claiming that THIS CounterTop deck was an exception.Obviously Counterbalance is bad against them if they land Vial. However, Counterbalance is just bad vs them in general, since by the time CounterTop is active, they already have guys on the board. CounterTop doesn't prevent Mutavault's from coming down, and so I tend to avoid Counterbalance in this matchup when I can (with Brainstorm and Top). Removal is the key to winning this matchup, which is why I board into more of it for games 2 and 3. How is this situation any different from any other CounterTop deck, though?
- Alright, I'll conceed that point. You do have a very stable manabase, which could be enough to ignore some of their wastelands and not care too much about Brainstorm since your dekc is either fliter, removal, or bomb.Let me repeat myself again. Aside from countering a turn 1 AEther Vial, Mental Misstep is horrible in this matchup past the beginning of the game. Cursecatcher? I could care less, that's the least worrisome threat in their entire deck for me. Spell Pierce? I thought they were cutting those for Mental Missteps... and MMS vs MMS? Sure, that's a viable use for running my own MMS, except their MMS's don't counter my strongest bombs vs them (Shackles and Peacekeeper).
The MMS vs MMS war is really not that important. I run a stable manabase so that it is not essential for me to resolve an early game Brainstorm or Top, and while their MMS on one of my 1cc removal spells is a problem, it's not something that needs to be fixed by running my own MMS. I'll just topdeck another removal spell, since I do run a whole bunch of those, and try again.
-Alright.I will contest that without MMS, and with them running MMS, my preboard win % goes down compared to before MMS got printed. However, I still dominate the postboard games. Why do I need to sacrifice my other matchups, by butchering my maindeck, to improve my preboard win % against one matchup? The metagame is still fresh off the MMS bandwagon. If Merfolk does start dominating, I'll simply go play Sligh/Zoo/Blue Zoo instead of this deck and crush the field.
Let me repeat my point: I'm not going to butcher my deck to improve one matchup at the cost of weakening the rest of my matchups. If that one matchup becomes such a dominant force in the metagame, I'll go play a different deck that has a much higher win % against it than this deck would with maindeck MMS.
Read the primer for my matchup analysis against Merfolk. I think there's also some discussion about my Team America matchup on either page 1 or page 2 (or both) of this thread.
That is correct. I was simply arguing that Team American will just rip that bomb out of your hand, that's all.My deck most certainly has the redunancy that Zoo has. Maybe not redundancy in 1 drops, or redundancy in smashing face, but it has redundancy in removal and redundancy in countermagic. If they counter one of my 1cc spells, I'm just going to cast another spell. The only decks that are going to pose a serious problem with Mental Misstep are the decks that are going to beat my face in before I can start dropping midgame bombs, which is limited to Zoo and Merfolk (with a Vial opener).
The other tempo aggro/control decks, like Team America and New Horizons, spend the early game playing disruption, and then finally drop a bomb in the midgame. Those matchups are perfectly fine matchups for me, with or without them running Mental Misstep. Hell, I'd rather they were running Mental Misstep than Spell Pierce, since Mental Misstep doesn't counter my bombs and Spell Pierce usually will. As far as I know, most people have been cutting Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep, right?
If you read my post a few posts back, the deck would eventually warp itself into a Supreme Blue shell, going with Tarmogoyf over Elspeth for Counterbalance curve reasons, and thusly is no longer CounterTop Superfriends. There's already a thread for Supreme Blue in the DTB section (CounterTop), so that discussion would be better spent in that thread.
EDIT: Oops. I just realized the "warping into Supreme Blue" was also because of Factory + Standstill. If I was going to just do a straight port of Mental Misstep and nothing else, I could cut 2 Path to Exile and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Mental Misstep. My removal density dips too low though, so unless my opponent is running alot of 1cc creatures, that's only improving the matchups where Mental Misstep would get alot of mileage. Overall, it's a much worse configuration.
Do you feel Supreme Blue is worth using in a field full of Merfolk?
Also, if one does not have access to Shackles, are there any substitutes for the card? Sower of Temptation? Or are the Shackles irreplaceable in this deck? I have nearly every card for this deck minus shackles.
How does this deck handle Landstill decks running MMS?
I'm also interested in how well this deck performs vs landstill, I havent faced many on MWS. As a general rule though, I reckon, the longer the game progresses the better for us. I do think that in the control mirror, countertop should win. I guess your signature would agree with me.
As for manlands, yes, they actually do stay within your control. Pretty amazing, it only requires the permament to be creature upon resolution. So yeah, essentially, shackles can be helpful vs landstill.
I though the effect ended once the manland became a land again. Do you have a rules quote for that?
Cursecatcher's affect instants and sorceries only. Daze is very easy to play around when you run one of the most stable manabases in Legacy. Again, unless they have Spell Pierce, it's usually my 4 FoW vs their 4 FoW, and I'll play that battle all day long.-Some lists are maining Spell Pierce ith Daze and MMS and FoW. Regardless, they still have 2 counters for your one. If you try to protect your Shackles, with FoW against theirs, they still have Dazes and cursecatchers to try and stop yours.
In a field full of Merfolk, I wouldn't play Supreme Blue. You lose access to Peacekeeper when you run aggro yourself, which is hands down, the best sideboard answer to Merfolk ever. Grim Lavamancer is good too, but he suffers from being 1cc to their MMS and the fact that the graveyard is not unlimited in resources.Do you feel Supreme Blue is worth using in a field full of Merfolk?
Also, if one does not have access to Shackles, are there any substitutes for the card? Sower of Temptation? Or are the Shackles irreplaceable in this deck? I have nearly every card for this deck minus shackles.
How does this deck handle Landstill decks running MMS?
If the format stays a format full of Merfolk, I'll be playing Blue Zoo.
There is really no replacement in my maindeck for Shackles. Shackles is great against every single aggro matchup, and drastically shores up my Vial Aggro matchups. They are pretty much irreplaceable, but you could always swap to some other mass removal spell for a temporary budget concern (EE, WoG, etc).
I haven't had a chance to play against Landstill decks playing MMS yet, but I would assume the matchup stays favorable. CounterTop owns the mirror, and my 1 drops are much less valuable than my other spells (aside from Top). Counterspell is a much stronger countermagic spell in this matchup, and I'm running a full playset vs the 2-3 that I see most Landstill lists running. However... I'm not sure about this matchup, cause I have yet to play against it.
No no, I meant when they go to try and counter your shackles and you then FoW it, they have Cursecatcher and Daze to try and stop your FoW.
I do (kinda)
From the gatherer: "The creature's power and the number of Islands you control matter only when the ability is activated and resolved. After that, only the fact that Vedalken Shackles remains tapped matters. You maintain control even if it stops being a creature."
also: 611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as "until end of turn"). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game.
hope this helps. Yes, shackles is that amazing
That's pretty fucking sick.
So... I've been having troubles with countertop mirror as of lately. Can you guys guess why?
They have mental misstep, we dont. from what I've experienced, the mirror is pretty much about who sets up countertop lock first, them having misstep obviously tilts this in their favour. We "should" have the end-game in our favour but thing is, all our counterspells doesnt matter when they clearly have a massive advantage at setting up the softlock.
what are people's experiences dealing with countertop decks with mm? sometimes it feels like they are running 8 tops vs ours 4
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