[Deck] Dredge

[Mojeh]

I am bringing in the 4th ichorid vs merfolk also. These arent mutually exclusive. And YES you can for sure resolve DR.

But how do we get that much slots, then?
Bringing Firestorms seems to be really necessary, also Elesh Norn, the 4th Ichorid, and maybe some Grudges after all.
Maybe, trading Tribes for Firestorms, and... Breakthroughs?

[2nd_lawl]

But how do we get that much slots, then?
Bringing Firestorms seems to be really necessary, also Elesh Norn, the 4th Ichorid, and maybe some Grudges after all.
Maybe, trading Tribes for Firestorms, and... Breakthroughs?

read back 8 posts

[Mojeh]

read back 8 posts

So, no Grudges?
Don't you consider leaving the Therapys as a counter bait?

[2nd_lawl]

So, no Grudges?
Don't you consider leaving the Therapys as a counter bait?

I don't play grudges, I like my SB cards to be able to do more work then that. While grudge is very good at what it does, it cant stop deed, knight(for bojouka bog), vial, mutavault, factory, and the new kid on the block stoneforge mystic/batterskull/moartarpod. and I DO leave in therapys.

[joemauer]

Hey 2nd lawl have you considered replacing firestorm with darkblast and going down to two colors. I know city isn't a bad land, but darkslick over gemstone mines is great for attrition wars. Thoughts?

[daugarten]

I'm playing LEDless Dredge and have read a lot about siding -4 Breakthroughs, +4 Firestorms against Merfolk, a particularly tough matchup. I understand the reasoning... but why not toss the Careful Studies instead? Seems to me both Study and Breakthrough can be cast @ 1, breakthrough giving you more draws and also allowing you to play it @ 2 to avoid missteps...

I am new, so correct me if I'm wrong to do that. Is it because Careful Study allows you to sculpt your hand more easily, which is useful when slow dredging? Isn't Breakthrough explosive enough to not worry about it?

[GoldenCid]

@2nd_lawl: Congratz on the finish!!! Some questions about your list.

- What did led you to run Gitaxian probe? On this hand why gitaxian probe over street wraith?
- No Iona, no FKZ sounds me risky. Could you explain you thoughts to Titan and primus? Consider that you don't automatically win when you DR them.
- What do you often retrieve with titan? LED, a LAnd, Imp?
- What is your main target to run primus main deck?

Thx you in advance.

[Vandalize]

Gitaxian Probe makes some well aimed Cabal Therapy, which are really important in these blue infected meta (and LED lists are more vulnerable to countermagic). Still, it's always nice to dredge EOT with Street Wraith (and it feeds Ichorid).

I'd make a 2/2 split. But that's my noob opinion :(

Woodfall Primus are there for some epic land/enchantment/artifact destruction along with the perfect synergy with Cabal Therapy + Bridge from Below. But Sun Titan seems a little weird... I'd replace him with FKZ.

I've been testing Brainstorm as well. I know it's a known tech, but it's pretty fine... Dredging lots for U and putting back those stupid Narcomoebas that keep showing up on our opening hands are really nice.

Another thing that I'd like to point out, is that the two most popular decks, Team America and Merfolk, run totally different graveyard hate (TA usually goes for Leyline of the Void and Merfolk usually goes for Relic of Progenitus). Wouldn't be wise to put back some Chain of Vapor, since we're going for DDD more often than ever (and CoV hits all kind of hate)?

[ThomasDowd]

Hey 2nd lawl have you considered replacing firestorm with darkblast and going down to two colors. I know city isn't a bad land, but darkslick over gemstone mines is great for attrition wars. Thoughts?

have you ever cast a firestorm?

not to be rude or anything.

[joemauer]

Have you ever cast darkblast?

They work very differently but fill similar spots in the deck.
Firestorm alone might not be worth making a 2 color deck 5 colors. The guy that top 4nd the BoM used darkblast over firestorm and he was using the five color build.

[Digital Devil]

Darkblast allows constant board control, while Firestorm is one-shot. A few posts ago, I said I was testing 3x maindeck Firestorm, though. Well, with Mental Misstep madness all over the place I'm playing second most times - if I'm facing a blue deck, I'm going DDD, and if I face anything else which starts with a creature, I'm Firestorming it, thus negating my opponent's board advantage. Things are quite nice with it (especially since I also have 3x Darkblast in the sb), though sometimes I play against combo and occasionally lose because I didn't decide to go first. Both cards are fine, but if I had to choose one to play maindeck, I'd play Firestorm, despite how much I hate it.

[2nd_lawl]

(and LED lists are more vulnerable to countermagic)

What? They are less vulnerable. Look at the list that won the GP: Flat out incapable of countering LED if you are on the play and Incapable of stopping land+LED if you are on the draw. Pefectly capable of misstepping your tireless tribe and wastelanding you out of the game.

I don't understand where you get your "facts" from.

Edit: and i would never cut firestorm, although I would consider playing darkblast in addition to it.

[Sims]

While true, that Bant list is kind of an oddity in it's absence of FoW. And while people may try it out, I have a strong doubt that "FoWless aggro control" decks are going to be the new norm just because one won the GP.

Still, you do have a point that land + LED is less susceptible to countermagic than tribes and pimps due to there being more counters that hit tribe and pimp.

[(nameless one)]

Change topic:

Would this card from one of the Commander decks have a place in this deck:



Notice how it can target any player.

[kicks_422]

It's just another big dude. The deck already has GGT for that.

The last ability is irrelevant.

[Godmode]

@dedicateddan

What do you think about the SB plan:

-1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp/Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Darkblast/Thug

This seems a better/safer plan and doesn't hurt the deck synergy as much as -4 Breakthrough, -1/2 Cabal Therapy

[sunshine]

Change topic:

Would this card from one of the Commander decks have a place in this deck:



Notice how it can target any player.

It lacks evasion, an ability to protect itself, and/or any way of making life difficult for your opponent other than swinging. Also it just dies if your graveyard goes away.

[Dune Echo]

It lacks evasion, an ability to protect itself, and/or any way of making life difficult for your opponent other than swinging. Also it just dies if your graveyard goes away.

You're right on all grounds except it's significantly bigger than Golgari Grave-Troll, protecting Golgari Grave-Troll when you're tapped out is pointless, and Golgari Grave-Troll goes away when your graveyard goes away too. Instead of immediate dismissal, this card is worth playtesting.

Now, if you want to argue that there are far better Dread Return targets that immediately end the game, by all means, please do because that would be a valid argument.

[264505]

You're right on all grounds except it's significantly bigger than Golgari Grave-Troll, protecting Golgari Grave-Troll when you're tapped out is pointless, and Golgari Grave-Troll goes away when your graveyard goes away too. Instead of immediate dismissal, this card is worth playtesting.

Now, if you want to argue that there are far better Dread Return targets that immediately end the game, by all means, please do because that would be a valid argument.

GGT doesn't die when your GY gets removed, he comes in with counters. I dont think this new card ends the game any faster than GGT as GGT usually comes in with a P/T ranging from 10-15 with 6+ 2/2 zombies. The secondary ability isnt important either. The Dredge lists now are all rather streamlined now (at least the non LED versions) so I dont know what to cut for it that wouldn't hurt a particular match up. It looks nice, but may only see play in something like Cephalid Breakfast.

[Vandalize]

What? They are less vulnerable. Look at the list that won the GP: Flat out incapable of countering LED if you are on the play and Incapable of stopping land+LED if you are on the draw. Pefectly capable of misstepping your tireless tribe and wastelanding you out of the game.

I don't understand where you get your "facts" from.

Edit: and i would never cut firestorm, although I would consider playing darkblast in addition to it.

I didn't mean to say LED Dredge is more vulnerable to counterspells. I meant to say when LED faces a FoW/Daze, it's harder to recover. Often you just have LED as your discard outlet (but we're often going for DDD, so whatever). Still, I love LED :D

I've been playing arround with this list, and it's been pretty amazing:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Street Wraith
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ichorid
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (!)
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Street Wraith is awsome. Dredging EOT and feeding Ichorid on the slow role is simply awsome. Nature's Claim is fine, but the 4 life drawback sometimes is backbreaking... But I might switch back to Chain of Vapor (too bad New Phyrexia didn't give a free bouncer).

Hapless Researcher wasn't as good as I thought. He OFTEN cannot produce tokens by being sacrificed (as he's usually an early discard outlet), the third Street Wraith might take his position.

I've been reading some U/B Reanimator's thread and I found that Jin-Gitaxias to be very interesting. I took out the 4th Firestorm to test that guy. He just win games if unanswered (EPIC and disruption + EPIC dredging). BUT, it happened to be answered in all kinds in my playtesting... Still, i'll try him some more.

Any comments or criticism?