[Deck] Reanimator

[Alsan]

Yes, we've tried the Firestorm reanimator (I gived the list to a friend of mine in a tournament I couln't go and he made top1-2 split: Firestorm Reanimator).

I'll try the white splash soon :D.

[Sturtzilla]

@ Alsan and Garobidou

I have been considering testing the Researchers for quite some time now. I guess it is finally time to do that. Thanks for all of the rationale as to why he is a better option. I totally agree that Sphinx is pretty great right now also. As for reducing creature variance, doing so will improve the consistency of the deck while reducing our flexibility. Now with Jin-Gitaxias, we may not need loads of options as long as we can get secondary targets onto the board. I would think that a configuration like:

3-4 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

would be ideal. Personally I prefer Elesh Norn to Blazing Archon at the moment. Then additional tweaks could be boarded like you both have suggested such as another Iona.

[Knoll]

@ aslan:
nice to have ya here man since you are one of the few ppls that kept up placing good results with reanimator after the ban :)
Can I ask ya what's your SB plan usually (expecially in g2 when you don't really know what your opponent could side in)?
do you try to predict the oppenent side-in and then act by consequence?

[Garobidou]

@ Alsan :
- I did try white splash before New Phyrexia and I found it slower than UB. As mental misstep eats E.tutor it might not be a good choice but I'm looking forward to having your feedback
- Thanks for the Red splash list. I've seen you were used to running Tutors list (Personal ou LDV) : what's your feeling with your new list compared to these one? Personaly I never liked the Personal tutor nor LDV (but I might be biaised as I loved my altered mystical tutors :p)

@Sturtzilla :
I would suggest you to try a bit more Blazing Archon instead of Elesh Norn. Blazing archon is as good as Elesh Norn in the matchs up where Elesh Norn is gamebreaking (elves, dredge) and far worse in many other important matchs up such as :
- Merfolk : with 2 lords out Elesh Norn is useless whereas Archon is always great
- Sneak and Show : Proge and Emrakul won't attack (especially Emrakul since Proge can be dealt with Sphinx)
- Bant : Elesh Norn does not stop knight of the reliquary. In addition, Elesh Norn is Legendary so it is dealt with Karakas

Ok Archon is worse in the goblin match up but it is pointless : in the goblin match up Sphinx is the #1 target by a large margin. If you run a creature as a 1-of it must be gamebreaking/great in the matchs up where you would have no or not a good answer otherwise and more or less average elsewhere. Elesh Norn does not fulfill the first part.

[Alsan]

@ alsan:
nice to have ya here man since you are one of the few ppls that kept up placing good results with reanimator after the ban :)
Can I ask ya what's your SB plan usually (expecially in g2 when you don't really know what your opponent could side in)?
do you try to predict the oppenent side-in and then act by consequence?

Thank you again :D. I'm glad to be here ^^.

Yes, my Sb plan usually goes through predict what opp would use as SB. IMO:

Goblins, Merfolks, Probant, UW Landstill, Burn, Enchantress: Relic of progenitus
Zoo, Maverick, Canadian, Reanimator, Aggrobant : Tormod's or Faerie macabre
Jace Control, Team america, : Extirpate
Ichorid, monoblack: Leyline of void

So I usually side in 2 pithing + 2 null rod, 2 pithing + 2 EE, 2 EE + 2 Echoing truth and 2 Echoing + 2 Show and tell (in order of pairings told before). In G3, if I start, usually return the Dazes to Maindeck, trying to be the most explosive I can. And works. Ah, and if I have pithing and he does not have graveyard hate on table in 2 turns, I name faerie macabre ignoring the previous table and try to reanimate as quick as I can.

@Garobidou: I loved the Personal tutors, but they were really bad xD (I had the mystical foil and used them to win with nauseam few tournaments, so I was dissapointed to leave them alone in the box), and Limduls were too slow. I prefer the new reanimator because it has less card disadvantage (only careful study and Hapless, and the old man has 11 good points, as we said few posts ago). The red splash was very powerful, Firestorm is a warehouse, has so many uses and it's very versatile, but we thought it was unnecesary. And it was unnecesary! I want to test more against UB Merfolks, because I think it should be the worst pairing we could have (ignore games with turn 2 blazing archon, please) without Firestorm and Pyroblast. I had multiple Ideas for Sb, like Sickening dreams or Darkblast, but they need to be tutored.. so I discarded it by now.

@Sturtzilla: I agree 100% with garobidou. Archon > Elesh norn, but I still love Archon WITH Elesh norn, so I play both.

[Sturtzilla]

Cool! I have run both individually, but not in the same list together. I think they essentially fulfill the same role although each can be better or worse depending on the situation at hand. I guess I could try running both in the same list. That could be pretty nasty. Anyway thanks for the input and the side-boarding ideas as well.

[nyoro]

Elesh norn is not necessary better than blazing archon. What happen if you face against show n tell? Blazing archon will stop emrakul or progenitus from swinging while you look for a 2nd reanimating target aka inkwell to go through emrakul. If you play elesh norn in this case, you will still die to emrakul swing and scoop.

[Knoll]

Well that's why you play elesh in the SB since he shines at 100% against only certain matchups like merfolks/gobs/speedzoo/infect & maverick(cuts their mana and shoots mothers & other annoying critters).

I usually side him in also against landstill & cawblade switching him for sphinx (packed with 2 echoing truth & 2 needles) since he is one more solution to peacekeeper and basically kills all their sources of damage.

[Clark Kant]

The problem with Blazing Archon is that your opponent can simply kill him their next turn and then swing in with everything for the win.

Elesh Norn serves the same role Archon did against weenie decks of all sorts much better. The second he hits the board, your opponent loses all their creatures, regardless of whether your opponent has a way to kill it or not. The fact that it also pumps up your Gin-Jitaxis and other creatures is just icing.

Shelodred the Whispering One serves the same role Archon did against aggro control decks and decks like Show and Tell and NO Progenitus better. The fact that reanimates you another creature as well the next turn is just icing.

I still love Blazing Archon since it does the work of both creatures but worse. Ultimately, Shelodred maybe too narrow to warrant a slot, but Elesh Norn absolutely is worth maindecking, probably alongside either Archon or Shelodred in the board.

[Garobidou]

@Clark Kant : I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you on several points.

Elesh Norn
- If your main concern is cleaning the board you should run Thunder Dragon
- If you're in a situation where your opponent board is full (you're under an alpha strike next turn), he has some removal, you have no counters then yes, it would be legit to lose this one (especially since we should be at least turn 4)
- Against weenies, if you're not in such a situation, I will reanimate Sphinx before Archon (even more since Mental Misstep release)
- Against Sneak Show, Elesh Norn does absolutely nothing. If you don't MD Blazing Archon your whole deck does nothing. It is especially dangerous since your opponent can get an Emrakul by turn 2, reducing Jin-Gitaxias relative efficiency.
- Elesh Norn body is too small (not pointless because creatures can attack). The KotR example remains.
- Elesh Norn has no evasion. A reanimator target has to have some sort of evasion (Jin is the exception but Elesh Norn can't be compared to Jin as it does not serve at all the same purpose)
- If you already have Jin on the board you should not fear removal (then in that case your first point about Archonis pointless). Moreover, if you're opponent's board is far from clean, you could be with Elesh in a situation where you have reanimated twice but you have no way to kill your opponent (no evasion, small body). That would be a shame.

Shelodred
- It does not do anything against Sneak Attack : this is not an answer to Sneak Show

@Knoll :
Your points about Mother of rune and Peacekeeper are valid.
However :
- against merfolk/infect Archon is far better (no removal, maybe just a Sower for Merfolk)
- against goblins / zoo Sphinx is the right call

[Karhumies]

What is your educated opinion on Entomb/sac H.Researcher -> Shallow Grave (Jin-Gitaxias) in the opponent's end step?

Cost: 1BB mana with Entomb. Dark Ritual potential?
Result sequence: 1) Opponent discards down to 0 in clean-up, 2) Jin hits for 5 in combat, 3) Draw 7 at beginning of your end step, 4) Jin goes to exile
Bad stuff: Jin goes to exile; "1 hit wonder"

Added bonus #1: Also works with Emrakul, although then you would rather combo in your own main phase 1
Added bonus #2: I have once won vs Zoo by Shallow Graving a Terastodon in the opponent's combat step before declare blockers


Here's my current deck list (very little testing done so far):

Main Deck 60
Target creatures 7 (+4 Entomb)

3 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
1 Terastodon
1 Blazing Archon

Discard 11

4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher

Animation 11

4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Shallow Grave

Protection 10

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze

Filter 4

4 Brainstorm

Mana 18

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Dark Ritual

Sideboard 15
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pithing Needle
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Show and Tell
1 Turbulent Dreams
2 Echoing Truth

[Alsan]

IMO, Shallow grave is really better in decks like Ooze Reanimator, where you do not care how much time the creature stays in battlefield, but here you want to have Jin all time winning. But if you want to play with this build, you should add Goryo's vengeance maindeck and made the deck more Emrakul dependant.

@Clark Kant: I'm with Garobidou, I prefer Archon > Elesh norn because he stops Emrakul, and she doesn't. But I'll argue you that the archon is easily killed. How? Now with Mental misstep it's really hard to kill any creature with R4+, because only Swords and Go for the throat kills them. And we have answer for one...

And the disadvantatge of being Legendary is the very first point of choosing archon > Elesh norn.

---

Well, I've been testing Misdirection. Is BROKEN. Redirecting a Hymn to tourach or being able of hitting removal with emperion on table (we are not allowed of playing Fow) to save him, is terribly good. The testing has been against Team America, so when I have more info, I'll tell.

[Equinozio]

@alsan:

After my 0-2 tournament I came home and add 2 misdirections and 3 duress main deck. I think I cutted daze, one jin and some card more to add a land.

[Karhumies]

@ Alsan: Currently, I am running Shallow Grave only as a side-plot to the standard Reanimator package of 4 Reanimate + 4 Exhume. In essence, I am testing Shallow Grave as a 3-of replacement for Animate Dead. Shallow Grave is not good enough to be run as a full set, despite the fact that it doesn't target -> hits through Extirpate just like Exhume (unlike Goryo's Vengeance). Furthermore, Goryo's Vengeance does not hit Terastodon. 18 "haste" damage by EOT Shallow Grave Terastodon can steal a game if opponent has fetched twice, not to mention making a devastating declare blockers step wall.

Currently, I am thinking to make the deck LESS reliant on Emrakul (contrary to your proposal) by moving him into SB, where he compliments the SB 4x SnT package. The thing is, the deck has no space or access to reasonable creature/instant tutors (LDV) and if I start adding them, I should be playing Ooze MD instead.

[Karhumies]

Also, about Enlightened Tutor: E.Tutor + H.Researcher = "Entomb" for UW with additional card disadvantage and a possible chump. But if you have an Entomb in your hand, having a E.Tutor to "compliment" it is just redundant. It could be a Daze or generic blue card (cantrip).

E.Tutor does not pull its weight because
-outside of "Entombing" artifact creatures, it does not pull its weight G1 (should be a blue disruption spell most of the time) because we lack castable utility artifacts
-it's bad at tutoring SB cards, because we need P.Needle for Karakas (when you could just run extra copies instead of E.Tutor) and a bounce/destruction spell/SnT against Leyline of the Void (which E.Tutor does nothing about).

[Garobidou]

E. Tutor :

Pros :
- With a Zombie Infestation + Animate Dead toolbox (+ some usefull artifact creatures such as Sphinx, Inkwell, Emperion) you're able to tutor any combo piece. This adds a lot to you consistency, having a card (E. Tutor) counting as A Creature, a Discard outlet and a reanimate effect.
- You can hit your hate more easily post side (Null Rod, Needle)
- Side note : you would not run Hapless anymore in a E. Tutor build, as you already have 13 Discard outlets (E. Tutor, Careful Study, Entomb, Zombie infestation)

Cons :
- It's white so you have to go 3 colors. However, with our ability to need very fews lands and people running less and less stifle, it might not be that a problem
- Misstep eats it
- Both tutorable discard and reanimate outlet are 2 cc. In my testing, that was the major problem, slowing us too much

[Alsan]

@alsan:

After my 0-2 tournament I came home and add 2 misdirections and 3 duress main deck. I think I cutted daze, one jin and some card more to add a land.

I wouldn't cut dazes maindeck, they are very strong to reanimate in early game (wich is the plan). I only cut 1 MD and made the second slot in Sb, to reinforce pairs like TA.

@Karhumies: if you wanna make your deck less reliant to emrakul, cut them. They doesn't fit with the original plan of the deck, and if they has karakas, and you won the 1rst game with Jin or Iona, the Show + Emrakul plan wouldn't work, they will be prepared. Destroying your entire board EOT in turn 3 to hit of 18 (remembering that if he plays control, this would not happen, and if plays aggro, he has a blocker) doesn't look good.

Garobidou, could you show us your list of White Reanimator? I have curiosity :).

[Garobidou]

Sure, I have tested a MD like this :
- 13 Creatures
- 13 Discards (14 with Thoughtseize)
- 12 Reanimates

2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Entomb
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Careful Study
1 Zombie Infestation
4 Reanimate
3 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
1 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp

If I was to try it again with Jin, I would cut the Ionas + Leviathan for 3 Jin.

[Mr.Dieth]

If we are talking about splashing white.

What about: Solitary confinement ?

-It serves as a discard outlet.
-Pure awesomeness against merfolk, goblins and so on..
-It also protects or graveyard ( we cannot be targeted )
-Sort of nice against storm combo ( no tendrills, and etw isn't scary against us )
-very nice combo with jin-gitaxias !

I haven't tested it yet, but I think it could be nice, what do you guys think?

[Clark Kant]

Sure, I have tested a MD like this :
- 13 Creatures
- 13 Discards (14 with Thoughtseize)
- 12 Reanimates

Playing 13-14 Reanimates sounds a lot sexier. The Reanimate is what your opponent usually counters anyways, not the discard effect. Many games, you will lose with a big creature in your yard but no reanimate effect since your first one got countered or the creature you brought with it sacrificed.

When they make you sac a creature, it helps you to have another reanimate effect in hand, so you should really max out the reanimate effects over both discard and creatures. They can't stop you from discarding creatures in response with Zombie Infestation before they destroy it, but they can destroy an Animate Dead.

As such, I would cut the random one of Thoughtseize (or possibly a Mental Misstep or Daze) to make room for the 4th Exhume. I might cut a second one as well to play a 2nd Animate Dead in case the first one gets destroyed.